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Evening all,
Bit of a stupid question but does anyone have thoughts on how to convert from font to French grade? In the sense that if you can sustain 15m of font grade x you could climb a sustained French grade y.
My thoughts at the moment are font font 4 = French 5a, font 5 = French 6b font 6a = French 7a, font 6c = French 7c and so on....
I'm asking so I can figure out some training exercises in the boulder room.
Cheers,
Greasey
Ps. Yes, I am aware this is a daft question.
Bit of a stupid question but does anyone have thoughts on how to convert from font to French grade? In the sense that if you can sustain 15m of font grade x you could climb a sustained French grade y.
My thoughts at the moment are font font 4 = French 5a, font 5 = French 6b font 6a = French 7a, font 6c = French 7c and so on....
I'm asking so I can figure out some training exercises in the boulder room.
Cheers,
Greasey
Ps. Yes, I am aware this is a daft question.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
A relevant blogpost that came up in a similar mountainproject thread if you haven't seen it:
http://peripheralscrutiny.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/landscape-new-look-at-rout...
A relevant blogpost that came up in a similar mountainproject thread if you haven't seen it:
http://peripheralscrutiny.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/landscape-new-look-at-rout...
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Rain dogs is famous for having lots of v4 moves in succession. It's about 20m. So 6c =8a
Kinda works if it's a totally sustained route. I'd agree from my experience that a sustained 7a could have nothing harder than 6a
Rain dogs is famous for having lots of v4 moves in succession. It's about 20m. So 6c =8a
Kinda works if it's a totally sustained route. I'd agree from my experience that a sustained 7a could have nothing harder than 6a
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
convert to UK tech grades move by move if you know them. eg 5a=1 5b 2, 5c 3 etc tot up then divide by number of moves. 20-23 = c7a 23 - 26=7a+ etc etc - only works circa 10+ moves or so
convert to UK tech grades move by move if you know them. eg 5a=1 5b 2, 5c 3 etc tot up then divide by number of moves. 20-23 = c7a 23 - 26=7a+ etc etc - only works circa 10+ moves or so
In reply to Bulls Crack:
So mean tech UK tech grade = French grade? Makes no sense
A mean tech grade of Uk 11b to 12a?! Sounds somewhat harder than French 7a to me......
> convert to UK tech grades move by move if you know them. eg 5a=1 5b 2, 5c 3 etc tot up then divide by number of moves.
So mean tech UK tech grade = French grade? Makes no sense
> 20-23 = c7a
A mean tech grade of Uk 11b to 12a?! Sounds somewhat harder than French 7a to me......
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In reply to La benya:
Raindogs is more like lots of V2/3 and is around 8 metres long (4 clips and a chain grab).
There is no really meaningful comparisson for route climbing ability and bouldering skills. When I could climb font7c, I could only do sport 7b. I can now climb sport 8a+/b, but my max bouldering grade is more like font7b - and I am even worse at indoor bouldering (V6 max).
In my own experience, sport climbing ability is dependent on being able to do moderately hard boulder problems after sustained easier climbing, or a harder boulder problem straight into sustained climbing - which is a different proposition to purely being able to do very hard boulder problems. The skill that defines it (at least for me) is ability to rest on poorish shake-out holds before / after the hard bits.
Still, if you want a few numbers to inform your musings, few examples of bouldery routes (note that all the boulder grades are highly subjective):
- The Maximum, 7c+ - a font 7a+/b into a sport 7a+/b
- Thriller, another 7c+, - a 7a route into a font 7aish boulder
- a few 8a routes seem to break down to around sport 7b+ into a V5ish boulder (Bulge, Dead Calm, Baboo).
- Overnite Sensation, 8a+, breaks down to a V7ish boulder into a sport 7c/+.
- Stolen, 8a+/b - tenuous conditions dependent 8a into a shake out, then a V5/6 boulder, shake out into a 7a+ route
> Rain dogs is famous for having lots of v4 moves in succession. It's about 20m. So 6c =8a
> Kinda works if it's a totally sustained route. I'd agree from my experience that a sustained 7a could have nothing harder than 6a
Raindogs is more like lots of V2/3 and is around 8 metres long (4 clips and a chain grab).
There is no really meaningful comparisson for route climbing ability and bouldering skills. When I could climb font7c, I could only do sport 7b. I can now climb sport 8a+/b, but my max bouldering grade is more like font7b - and I am even worse at indoor bouldering (V6 max).
In my own experience, sport climbing ability is dependent on being able to do moderately hard boulder problems after sustained easier climbing, or a harder boulder problem straight into sustained climbing - which is a different proposition to purely being able to do very hard boulder problems. The skill that defines it (at least for me) is ability to rest on poorish shake-out holds before / after the hard bits.
Still, if you want a few numbers to inform your musings, few examples of bouldery routes (note that all the boulder grades are highly subjective):
- The Maximum, 7c+ - a font 7a+/b into a sport 7a+/b
- Thriller, another 7c+, - a 7a route into a font 7aish boulder
- a few 8a routes seem to break down to around sport 7b+ into a V5ish boulder (Bulge, Dead Calm, Baboo).
- Overnite Sensation, 8a+, breaks down to a V7ish boulder into a sport 7c/+.
- Stolen, 8a+/b - tenuous conditions dependent 8a into a shake out, then a V5/6 boulder, shake out into a 7a+ route
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In reply to La benya:
And at the other end of the sustainedness scale I have a 7a project that consists of a 6B boulder problem, the rest is about 6a+ at most.
And at the other end of the sustainedness scale I have a 7a project that consists of a 6B boulder problem, the rest is about 6a+ at most.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
It's a simple enough sounding question but I think trying to think about climbing or training in this way is only likely to lead to confusion. Climbing is such a complex activity that trying to reduce it to a simple linear scale is fraught with problems. Yes we do it all the time in guidebooks etc. but also done with the caveat that it's only a guide.
Even just simple bouldering it's not straightforward. You might be able to do one V3 four times in a row but not be able to do a different one even once.
Grades differ in different areas as do styles of climbing. A problem whose main difficulty is say working out the sequence is likely to be easier to repeat than one that is obvious how to do but is down to a pure power move.
Routes are even more complex. The route might be sustained or have a really hard crux. The crux might be at the start when your fresh or at the top when you're tired.
There have been two different answers for how hard Raindogs would be in boulder terms: V2/3 and V4. Who is right? Well it could be both are right. Because something simple like that is going to depend how long we each imagine boulder is. If one person is thinking in terms of 3/4 moves and some else is thinking in terms of 6/7 moves then obviously the latter is going to arrive at a higher number than the former.
For physical training you want to think in terms of types of move, angle of climbing, types of hold, intensity, volume, progressive overload, strength, endurance, recovery etc.. You want to honestly assess your weaknesses and spend more time on those than anything else.
If you're trying to figure out how hard you ought to be able to lead climb then the best way is by simple climbing. The guide of 3 - 4 grades above your onsight level is a good rough guide for well rounded climber.
It's a simple enough sounding question but I think trying to think about climbing or training in this way is only likely to lead to confusion. Climbing is such a complex activity that trying to reduce it to a simple linear scale is fraught with problems. Yes we do it all the time in guidebooks etc. but also done with the caveat that it's only a guide.
Even just simple bouldering it's not straightforward. You might be able to do one V3 four times in a row but not be able to do a different one even once.
Grades differ in different areas as do styles of climbing. A problem whose main difficulty is say working out the sequence is likely to be easier to repeat than one that is obvious how to do but is down to a pure power move.
Routes are even more complex. The route might be sustained or have a really hard crux. The crux might be at the start when your fresh or at the top when you're tired.
There have been two different answers for how hard Raindogs would be in boulder terms: V2/3 and V4. Who is right? Well it could be both are right. Because something simple like that is going to depend how long we each imagine boulder is. If one person is thinking in terms of 3/4 moves and some else is thinking in terms of 6/7 moves then obviously the latter is going to arrive at a higher number than the former.
For physical training you want to think in terms of types of move, angle of climbing, types of hold, intensity, volume, progressive overload, strength, endurance, recovery etc.. You want to honestly assess your weaknesses and spend more time on those than anything else.
If you're trying to figure out how hard you ought to be able to lead climb then the best way is by simple climbing. The guide of 3 - 4 grades above your onsight level is a good rough guide for well rounded climber.
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In reply to La benya:
^^^
Is on the money, for a normal sustained sport route (but still with a crux), the hardest climbing will be roughly a full number easier. So 7a sport routes crux would be F6A boulder.
Naturally, if the route happens to be a one move wonder, that correlation goes to hell... and the boulder grade and route grade are almost the same. And for a super sustained non cruxy route, again it's wrong. Think of a classic sustained splitter crack, same move from the start to the end and no rests. Individual move might only be F5a, but if a long pitch (say 40m) the french grade could be something like 7a or even 7b.
> Kinda works if it's a totally sustained route. I'd agree from my experience that a sustained 7a could have nothing harder than F6A.
^^^
Is on the money, for a normal sustained sport route (but still with a crux), the hardest climbing will be roughly a full number easier. So 7a sport routes crux would be F6A boulder.
Naturally, if the route happens to be a one move wonder, that correlation goes to hell... and the boulder grade and route grade are almost the same. And for a super sustained non cruxy route, again it's wrong. Think of a classic sustained splitter crack, same move from the start to the end and no rests. Individual move might only be F5a, but if a long pitch (say 40m) the french grade could be something like 7a or even 7b.
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In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:
Fantastic breakdown Moose, think you have explained that really well.
Fantastic breakdown Moose, think you have explained that really well.
In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:
Its down as 12m so we were both out (but i was 'wronger'), ill have to take your word on the moves, i was just parroting what i read somewhere.
i agree that boulder skills dont necessarily translate to route climbing ability, but to set the level for training i think it works well. you need to be able to define how hard you ought to be climbing at a given grade, of a particular route type. in this case a sustained route. youre right though, trying to define how hard a one move wonder crux would be is much more difficult/ hit and miss.
agree and i also find that the biggest limiting factor when i try and do routes after a sustained period of bouldering. also tactics and head game play a big part if youre away from a rope for a while.
The cruxiest route ive ever done was probably a 7B on a 7b (5+ climbing after the crux), or a 7B+ on a 7c (6b up to rest, then crux).
> Raindogs is more like lots of V2/3 and is around 8 metres long (4 clips and a chain grab).
Its down as 12m so we were both out (but i was 'wronger'), ill have to take your word on the moves, i was just parroting what i read somewhere.
> There is no really meaningful comparisson for route climbing ability and bouldering skills. When I could climb font7c, I could only do sport 7b. I can now climb sport 8a+/b, but my max bouldering grade is more like font7b - and I am even worse at indoor bouldering (V6 max).
i agree that boulder skills dont necessarily translate to route climbing ability, but to set the level for training i think it works well. you need to be able to define how hard you ought to be climbing at a given grade, of a particular route type. in this case a sustained route. youre right though, trying to define how hard a one move wonder crux would be is much more difficult/ hit and miss.
> In my own experience, sport climbing ability is dependent on being able to do moderately hard boulder problems after sustained easier climbing, or a harder boulder problem straight into sustained climbing - which is a different proposition to purely being able to do very hard boulder problems. The skill that defines it (at least for me) is ability to rest on poorish shake-out holds before / after the hard bits.
agree and i also find that the biggest limiting factor when i try and do routes after a sustained period of bouldering. also tactics and head game play a big part if youre away from a rope for a while.
> Still, if you want a few numbers to inform your musings, few examples of bouldery routes (note that all the boulder grades are highly subjective):
> - The Maximum, 7c+ - a font 7a+/b into a sport 7a+/b
> - Thriller, another 7c+, - a 7a route into a font 7aish boulder
> - a few 8a routes seem to break down to around sport 7b+ into a V5ish boulder (Bulge, Dead Calm, Baboo).
> - Overnite Sensation, 8a+, breaks down to a V7ish boulder into a sport 7c/+.
> - Stolen, 8a+/b - tenuous conditions dependent 8a into a shake out, then a V5/6 boulder, shake out into a 7a+ route
The cruxiest route ive ever done was probably a 7B on a 7b (5+ climbing after the crux), or a 7B+ on a 7c (6b up to rest, then crux).
In reply to Robert Durran:
Take a not too short sport route you know - assign the UK tech grades to each 'move' (add a move at 0 for each good rest) then work out the average score. Most sport routes I do seems to fall quite neatly into groups
Take a not too short sport route you know - assign the UK tech grades to each 'move' (add a move at 0 for each good rest) then work out the average score. Most sport routes I do seems to fall quite neatly into groups
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In reply to Bulls Crack:
Your examples make no sense though. Sustained UK tech 6a gives an average of 4, yet you say you need to average 20-23 for French 7a, but I can't see how any human can do a single move worth 20, let alone a sustained route!
Your examples make no sense though. Sustained UK tech 6a gives an average of 4, yet you say you need to average 20-23 for French 7a, but I can't see how any human can do a single move worth 20, let alone a sustained route!
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In reply to stp:
FWIW in 20+ years of climbing I've never managed more than 1 grade above. I've always found the entire concept of climbing 4 grades above what I can onsight entirely fanciful.
However, if the ability to dyno anything harder than V2 is a prerequisite for being a well rounded climber I'm happy to admit that I'm probably not.
> The guide of 3 - 4 grades above your onsight level is a good rough guide for well rounded climber.
FWIW in 20+ years of climbing I've never managed more than 1 grade above. I've always found the entire concept of climbing 4 grades above what I can onsight entirely fanciful.
However, if the ability to dyno anything harder than V2 is a prerequisite for being a well rounded climber I'm happy to admit that I'm probably not.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Thanks for the replies everyone some good stuff mentioned.
Also congratulations UKC on going a whole 15 posts without mentioning the B word!
Thanks for the replies everyone some good stuff mentioned.
Also congratulations UKC on going a whole 15 posts without mentioning the B word!
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
This refers to doing hard redpoints where you work on a route over multiple days. You might not even do all the moves on your first day or so. If you haven't tried you'd probably surprise yourself of what your capable of.
This refers to doing hard redpoints where you work on a route over multiple days. You might not even do all the moves on your first day or so. If you haven't tried you'd probably surprise yourself of what your capable of.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
15m of font 6A is going to be a fair bit harder than F7a...
15m of font 6A is going to be a fair bit harder than F7a...
In reply to La benya:
Not an expert on bouldering grades but isn't V4 more like font 6a+?
> Rain dogs is famous for having lots of v4 moves in succession. It's about 20m. So 6c =8a
Not an expert on bouldering grades but isn't V4 more like font 6a+?
In reply to Misha:
As said above - it's more like UK5c / V2ish moves for 10m - the crux ("windmill move" is perhaps UK6a). It's just that there is one-after-another without respite. The typical Raindogs experience is being able to do all the moves and perhaps some long links very quickly, but after a year to still be falling off the last moves on RP - it's the accummulation of fatigue and tiny mistakes that gets you.
Raindogs though is a very atypical route for the UK - pure power-stamina. As such, I doubt much is gained from citing it as an example - it is not a route amenable to breaking up into discrete "boulder problems". Most other Malham and Kilnsey routes have more well defined cruxes where a bit of finger strength might well be the defining factor.
As said above - it's more like UK5c / V2ish moves for 10m - the crux ("windmill move" is perhaps UK6a). It's just that there is one-after-another without respite. The typical Raindogs experience is being able to do all the moves and perhaps some long links very quickly, but after a year to still be falling off the last moves on RP - it's the accummulation of fatigue and tiny mistakes that gets you.
Raindogs though is a very atypical route for the UK - pure power-stamina. As such, I doubt much is gained from citing it as an example - it is not a route amenable to breaking up into discrete "boulder problems". Most other Malham and Kilnsey routes have more well defined cruxes where a bit of finger strength might well be the defining factor.
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In reply to Misha:
I've always known it to be 6C. I work back/ forward from 7B+ = V8+... because that's sensible.... right?! (and was an attempt to make the two systems line up)
7B = V8
7A+ = V7
7A = V6
6C+ = V5
6C+ = V4
I realise that they aren't meant to align linearly like that, and that's why people don't like V grades. but in my sphere of climbing experience they do... in fact, I don't know why i used a V grade at all!
I've always known it to be 6C. I work back/ forward from 7B+ = V8+... because that's sensible.... right?! (and was an attempt to make the two systems line up)
7B = V8
7A+ = V7
7A = V6
6C+ = V5
6C+ = V4
I realise that they aren't meant to align linearly like that, and that's why people don't like V grades. but in my sphere of climbing experience they do... in fact, I don't know why i used a V grade at all!
In reply to La benya:
Usually folk seem to suggest it shifts to being 2 Font grades per V grade below about 7A so V5 would often be said to cover 6C and 6C+...
Usually folk seem to suggest it shifts to being 2 Font grades per V grade below about 7A so V5 would often be said to cover 6C and 6C+...
In reply to La benya:
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/
Scroll down to the bouldering grade table.
http://www.rockfax.com/publications/grades/
Scroll down to the bouldering grade table.
Post edited at 10:12
In reply to La benya:
Hmmm I always think
7A+ = V7
7A = V6
6C+ = V5
6B+ & 6C = V4
6A, 6A+, 6B = V3
5-6A = V2
Breaks down lower in the scale.
In terms of routes in my experience I think of the hardest moves you'd experience on a cruxy route in that grade.
F6c = fb5
F7a = fb6A
F7a+ = fb6B
F7b = fb6C+
F7b+ and higher haven't done enough.
Hmmm I always think
7A+ = V7
7A = V6
6C+ = V5
6B+ & 6C = V4
6A, 6A+, 6B = V3
5-6A = V2
Breaks down lower in the scale.
In terms of routes in my experience I think of the hardest moves you'd experience on a cruxy route in that grade.
F6c = fb5
F7a = fb6A
F7a+ = fb6B
F7b = fb6C+
F7b+ and higher haven't done enough.
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In reply to La benya:
V grades aren't stupid - they are just a scale - which can be readily and consistently converted to other bouldering grade scales. The stupidity is applying them, or any other bouldering grade, to things they are not suited to.
Bouldering grades can be very useful for explaining the character of a cruxy route, say, saying Overnight Sensation is around V6/7 into F7c/+ is no more stupid than saying it is fb7a+/b into F7c/+. They are far less useful for describing enduro / power-stamina routes. Or, for saying "I can climb boulder problems at X grade, so can climb routes at Z grade" - I have climbed with font7c climbers who got pumped stupid and fell off F6cs.
V grades aren't stupid - they are just a scale - which can be readily and consistently converted to other bouldering grade scales. The stupidity is applying them, or any other bouldering grade, to things they are not suited to.
Bouldering grades can be very useful for explaining the character of a cruxy route, say, saying Overnight Sensation is around V6/7 into F7c/+ is no more stupid than saying it is fb7a+/b into F7c/+. They are far less useful for describing enduro / power-stamina routes. Or, for saying "I can climb boulder problems at X grade, so can climb routes at Z grade" - I have climbed with font7c climbers who got pumped stupid and fell off F6cs.
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In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:
They are a bouldering grade, how is it stupid trying to apply them to boulders? in so much as they (at the lower grades at least) cover too wider experience, compared to font grades, they are stupid.
and im not sure i agree with your last point either. if you have experience of what a one/ two move boulder of x-grade feels like (ie hard as f***) then you can compare individual moves on a route to this and determine how many of them in a row feels like a route grade.
I've done loads of 1-to-2 moves X grade boulders, and i know that if i strung 20-30 of those together i would get a sustained route of X grade sport route. in my mid grade experience loads of font 5 and 6 moves together would equate to 7aish.
They are a bouldering grade, how is it stupid trying to apply them to boulders? in so much as they (at the lower grades at least) cover too wider experience, compared to font grades, they are stupid.
and im not sure i agree with your last point either. if you have experience of what a one/ two move boulder of x-grade feels like (ie hard as f***) then you can compare individual moves on a route to this and determine how many of them in a row feels like a route grade.
I've done loads of 1-to-2 moves X grade boulders, and i know that if i strung 20-30 of those together i would get a sustained route of X grade sport route. in my mid grade experience loads of font 5 and 6 moves together would equate to 7aish.
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