UKC

Ok, as others have noticed there's not much climbing talk going on in the forums so let's get a few new threads going.
We've also recntly had an interesting thread about sandbags so let's go the other way.
Soft touches/routes that are a piece of piss for the grade.
Stipulations- nothing that's death on a stick
Nothing that's crap (so one star or up)
Nothing that's soft because it is tamed with pads

I'll start:
BAWs Crawl. Great fun but it's hardly even climbing. Swing your feet onto a ledge with gear by your face (and only at head height), then squirm along a bit and stand up.
The crack addict start on the plum at Tremadoc. It'd barely get HVS on grit, it's an absolute piece of cake.

Caveat: they're not the greatest examples and I'll have a think o some more

In reply to deacondeacon:

Diabeg Pillar.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Pot Black (E2 5b)

Everything on that buttress is a path for the grade. Actually, that isn't true. Cue (HVS 5b) has a hard move I think, and the hard stuff is probably hard. But the HVS, E1, E2 and E3 are all little softies.

The classic, obviously is The Strand (E2 5b). It's like 2 HVSs, on top of each other (which isn't quite the same as saying it's HVS, which according to everyone on here is what I think).

The Moon (E3 5c) is an odd one. I've done it a good few times, and the first time it felt E1 - easier than Astral Stroll (E1 5b) - and other times it felt harder/scarier. It's probably E2.

Star Wars (E4 5c). Someone said to me "it's Lakes E2". They were probably right.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Millsom's Minion at Stanage plantation. Effectively two easy boulder problems with good pro or very close to the ground. Cue on the same bit of rock is a lower grade and harder.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Pick any route at Lower Sharpnose Point or Sheigra Sea Cliffs. Oh look, they're my favourite crags where every hold's a jug and E2 is like climbing a 5 down the wall.

In reply to deacondeacon:
The Knight's Move. Far from the toughest fair VS graded route on the crag. The so called crux is safe HS 4c ish rockover that is certainly not reachy.

Bowfell Buttress is HVD 4a ish and the new definitive HS grade is a moment of madness.

Wrecker's Slab maybe just about worth its VS for adventure but felt like an easier HS to us (allowing fully for the loose rock and.
runouts.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Southeast Ridge (AD 4c)

Is very soft, and lovely

In reply to deacondeacon:

Here's a good thread for you:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=1427

Might look again at this one when summer comes round, if the winter training goes well...

In reply to deacondeacon:

Lazy Sunday Afternoon (E2 5b) - a one move wonder - but it is a great move, and extremely well protected.
Staircase (D) - I've climbed harder mods.
Seal (VS 4c) - gets HVS in the CC definitive, and definitely soft at the grade.
Progressive Rock Part 2 (6c) - a lovely climb, but thought it was more of a 6b+ route at most.
Toni (6c+) - has to be the softest 7a in the world.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Promontory Direct (HVS) at Auchinstary always makes you feel like you are climbing well: probably because it's a Hard Severe.

Loose Woman at Blackchurch is a give away E point.

Three Pebble slab was my first HVS and a bit of a soft touch.

In reply to deacondeacon:


Electric circus at new mills tors always makes me laugh. E3... Or steep, safe VS. Who knows

In reply to deacondeacon:

My favourite softie boulder problems:

Trackside (f7A) - 7a my arse, it's 6b+
The Cave Problem (f7A) - as above
Razor Roof (f6C)
Flipper (f6C)

In reply to deacondeacon:

Spider's Web (HVS 5a)

No more than VS 4c.

In reply to alan moore:


aye right!

In reply to deacondeacon:

Second vote for Wreckers' Slab (VS 4b)

Actual climbing is more like a S/HS 4a. Any steady VS climber would stroll up it. But yes, approach and setting make it feel like more of an undertaking.

In reply to deacondeacon:

On the bouldering side - No match for climb id:218949 - 7b going on 6a+.

In reply to Jon Stewart:





yep, The Strand felt like a tiring HVS to me. Jam, step up, jam, step
Up, jam, step, place gear, jam, step up etc.
Never E2.

In reply to Jon Stewart:



Nice, I'll have a browse.

In reply to snoop6060:

Yep, I managed three E4s in a day there once. All soft

In reply to deacondeacon:

Satan's Slip is a soft E1

Lot's Groove might only be VS

Salamander on Creag Glass is another softy.

50 Fathom's of fear on Dun Mingulay is graded HS but is covered in huge holds and three star VDiff climbing...

In reply to deacondeacon:

Comedy (7c)

7b+ at most. No harder than Pantomime. Amble to one stiff pull. Romp on jugs. Rest. Pull a bit, clip, pull a bit, clip, jugs, belay.

A nice warm up

Andy F

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Agree re Sharpnose and Starwars. Think The Strand and The Moon are spot on though.

In reply to Misha:

Brean down, especially the 7a x2.
Sentinel at burbage.

In reply to deacondeacon:
A couple that spring to mind:
The Brink of Solarity (HVS 5a)
Bad to the Bone (E1 5b)
Both good, but take a grade off each and they would still be softish.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Bamford Rib (HVS 5a) as compared to the the other adjacent HVS's
Knight's Move (HVS 5a) as compared to Green Crack which is lower grade!
and two others at Burbage North
Bilberry Cake (VS 4c) after the hardish start its prob HVD
Right Fin (HVS 5a) one move wonder!

i was gonna add The Sloth (HVS 5a) but might get a a bit of a bashing!!!!! lol

In reply to deacondeacon:

Shin Gi Tai (6b+)

This, Shin Gi Tai Direct. Is 6b maybe plus. Gets 6c+ in all guides at the moment.

In reply to Paul Hy:

Bilberry Cake is a part excavated trivial eliminate famous only for unlucky grading hitting a new guide too late to be checked.. (HS and technical to start).

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Interesting list of boulders, just out of interest how tall are you?

In reply to deacondeacon:

The Meltdown at nudas tartan. This is about 4 grades different from Jerry's traverse at cratcliffe which I still can't do!

In reply to deacondeacon:

Exchange (VS 4b) good protection all the way could of used 2 sets of nuts. All hard moves have gear above your head.

In reply to deacondeacon:

About all hard routes I've climbed... and they can be seen on my public 27crags profile.

But the softest of the soft is without a doubt El Dedo de Satán in Camarasa, supposed 7a+, but in reality a rather easy F6B/+ boulder of few moves.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Behave yourself Jon.

I still cannot do this. This is defo not 6b+ if you cannot reach the top. That last hold you need to udge off (if you are short) 1 or 2 inch below the lip is absolute bobbins. Feels 7A to me, but so does strawberries . Bad lip tho, that's soft at 7A. As is early doors at 7A+.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Coastguard Slab (VS 4b)
Closer to VDiff than VS 4b

Central Crack Left Hand (Flake Crack) (VD)
Given S 4a in the Littlejohn guide, but easier than the descent route (which is Diff)

In reply to andy farnell:


Comedy is an interesting one and the grade has been debated for years. It's a very specific style of climbing (ie. very steep on good holds). For those with good pulling and lock off strength it appears overgraded, but for those who may be stronger at less steep, fingery styles of climbing 7c seems fair.

I suppose grades aren't purely about the bit of rock we climb. They're about the relationship of that bit of rock with the climber. The rock stays the same but the person climbing is different with every ascent.

Given the huge variety of styles of climbing along with different body types it's amazing the grading the system works at all. But most of the time we can agree pretty closely with each other.

In reply to deacondeacon:

The Sun (E3 5c)

The Pillar (E2 5b)

Left Wall Direct Finish (E3 5c)

In reply to deacondeacon:
Flying Buttress Direct?

I normally get to the top of a grit E1 and know I've done it but this route was just outright fun.

In reply to Tigger:

Yeah just next to it is Kirkus's Corner (now E1), and R again Spasticus Artisticus which has gone from E2 to E4.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Devils Slide is little more than an amble and very over graded.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Strawberries (at E7). I belayed Ben Moon on it. He did it in an afternoon with just 6 falls, no dogging. The same year he did Statement of Youth, also then E7 which took him 5 days of solid effort. I tried both routes. On Strawberries I fell on the last hard move after just 3 falls, no dogging (we had to leave then). When I tried Statement on his ropes I found I couldn't do a single hand move on it. And they're the same difficulty?

In reply to deacondeacon:

pebbledash at the roaches is never HVS its midgrade VS IMO.

Straight Crack (VS 4b) (traditional start) at stannage is no harder than Robin Hood's Right-hand Buttress Direct should be HS IMO

In reply to stp:


Aye.... I found it every inch 7c - you would have to be a thug / very strong boulderer to think it was a notably "soft". I agree with Andy that it's not much harder than Pantomine though - Pantomine possibly even has harder moves but is maybe a little less burly / strenuous - but I think Pantomine is maybe undergraded.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Sergeant Crag Slabs
How about the trio of hvs here.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Last Tango in Paris (E2 5b) is the softest of the grade I've ever been on. Would of given it HVS

In reply to stp:


Fair play giving the route a good try ground-up but come on, that's a silly comparison! The E7 tag in Statement was fairly meaningless. And with Strawberries the modern E7 grade is for an onsight ascent, and I'm not sure anyone who's succeeded at that has suggested it be downgraded again? Not to mention the amount of strong contenders who've failed on it.

In reply to Paul Hy:

Yeah surely Right Fin should be VS 5a?

In reply to The Ivanator:




I agree. Bad to the Bone was soaking wet when I did it and still seemed OK. My daughter seconded Brink of Solarity... when she was 5!

In reply to alan moore:



Aaaaargh! No you had to go and mention TPS. Didn't you?! Now we will have endless E1/E0/HVS debates.

Incidently I have seen too many people come a cropper on that to consider it a soft touch. To me a soft touch has more than one piece of gear on it.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I know; I was impressed by everyone's restraint.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Depends how you think the adjectival system should be used. Sure if it's only about seriousness. But if, as it's normally used, it's the overall difficulty of the climb the the comparison is perfectly reasonable. E can be for effort as well as seriousness. E7 equates to 8a and 8a+ sport routes. This means Statement is actually a low E7, high being a sport route of 8a+.


I'm not sure about grading routes purely for an onsight ascent. Grades are usually for the easiest sequence. Some routes have blind moves on them and are thus hard to onsight for their grade. But that doesn't usually mean we upgrade them. The moves out of the top of the crack of Strawberries are blind as I remember, a long lock off to a finger hold that's hard to see. That's probably the reason few people onsight it. But of course if someone tried it when it was well chalked up, or tick marked, it would eliminate that problem. Does that mean the grade should be changed though?

In reply to DaveHK:

We were too intimidated to even try it! Didn't look well protected at all, although some say it is?

In reply to alan moore:


But that would make Spyra Gyra Severe when it's not. Prom direct always felt a step up from VS to me - long time ago though now...


The 5b move is on the most normal rock but it's still 5b!

In reply to TobyA:


Diabaig Pillar? Well protected in general (take loads of quickdraws), though I found the traverse left a bit bold (but you could go straight up the groove and avoid that). I agree, it does look desperate from a distance.

In reply to stp:

I understand E for effort but I don't think trad grades make sense for sport routes. You can try and equate the rough level of difficulty but it ignores the whole thing of deciding what gear to place and hanging on while you get it in.

I'm sure Strawberries has had a good few failures despite being well chalked! I think when the difficulty of placing gear during a hard sequence + blind moves on a route means that only a few can onsight it, you've got to look at whether the grade (previously E6) is correct or not. I don't climb anywhere near that level so would go with the consensus of those who've tried to onsight it, with greater emphasis on those who've succeeded.

In reply to snoop6060:


The fact that you cannot reach the top is definitely the problem here, yes.

In reply to SFrancis:


5'10" and normal length arms. I can't really work out what kinds of moves I seem to be able to do, and which I can't. I seem to fail a lot on high-foot rockover things (blaming long-legedness, maybe?), but that's exactly what Trackside is. And I'm definitely not a powerful, dynamic climber, so Razor Roof should feel hard for the grade?

I find with boulders, I can either do'em, or I can't. And that's the same problems every time, year in, year out, regardless of training etc.

While we're at it, here's another super-softie:

Dry Wit in a Wet Country (f7A) - was ludicrous at 7a+, again 6b+ is fair. Absolutely belter too!

In reply to deacondeacon:
The Minotaur in Huntsman's Leap. Gets E5 6a, more like E3 6a - as long as you're reasonably tall (I'm 5'11" and didnt find the crux move particularly tough). 6b for shorties but even that would only push it to E4.

In reply to Misha:

I outright couldn't do the move on Minotaur on toprope - after repeated tries I went up the route on the right. Tim had to jump. Did you do it static or dynamic?

In reply to TobyA:


It looks much harder than its. All the harder moves are either off good holds or onto good holds and there's plenty of gear. I genuinely thought HVS at the time but I was going well so E1 is probably fair.

In reply to TobyA:


There's plenty of gear, maybe some mild run-outs. But the style of climbing is incredibly straightforward, you just pull down on horizontal flatties (so excellent footholds) over and over for half an hour or so, with no obstacles to progress. Delightful!

In reply to deacondeacon:

V6 Traverse on the Langdale boulders is soft touch at either V6 or font 7a.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


we did Route Two (HVS 5a) which was super on the main cliff. Had we tried The Pillar (E2 5b) we probably wouldn't have had time to Route Two before the heavy rain started anyway, so it is fine that it will have to wait for another time!

In reply to TobyA:

It's one of the best crags in the country for HVS-E2, so it's worth visiting until you've ticked the lot (and then going back and doing them again). The Black Streak is one of the best routes ever, but you could say that about any of them.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Slightly dynamic. It's only one move, the rest is E3.

In reply to Misha:

You've got to be confident though, eh, since you can't see the hold! Agree the rest is E3, but if you put a long dynamic move to hold you can't see at the top of 30m of sustained E3, you get something around the E4/5 border, no? Not saying it's not soft for the grade (not qualified to comment) but for me it's definitely not E3!

In reply to Michael Gordon:
not sure its worthy of 5a!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Tough but well protected 6a move is E3 6a in my book or if it's 6b for you then at most E4 6b. Never E5, that requires more than one 6a move, or a 6a move in a dangerous position, or a 6a move and everything else is 5c so would be E4 without the 6a move. Something like that. Pembroke has a fair few relatively soft routes but the Minotaur really stands out.

In reply to Misha:
Yes, E4 6b sounds more like it than E5 6a, but if you found the move easy, I see your point. The real soft touch is meant to be Just Another Day/Scorch the Earth (E5 6a) which by combining two halfs of E4s to get E5 sounds like a bargain! Might it try it if I get fit enough over the winter.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Yeah JED Scorch is soft at E5. More like tough E4 with a couple of good rests. That's assuming you go right of the peg, which most people do. Direct looked more like 6b!

In reply to deacondeacon:

Nearly everything at Shorn Cliff apart from Tigers Don't Cry.

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Organ Grinder ?

In reply to Misha:


I was always under the impression that it was E5 for going direct past the peg, which I think was originally how it was done, and E4 for the right detour. I've got a feeling that this is how it's described in the old Pembroke rockfax.

In reply to deacondeacon:
A bit obscure but Take Hart (E2 6a) on Easter Island in Cheddar. Supposedly E2 6a and I would say it is VS 5a. The most massively overgraded route I have ever been on.

In reply to ericinbristol:


The whole of cheddar is massively overgraded though

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Individual moves aren't difficult at Sharpnose but there aren't many rest ledges!

In reply to andy farnell:


I'm not convinced.
jk

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

What's with Tigers don't cry?

Which reminds me, Lundy Calling at the same crag.

In reply to duncan b:

Surely you jest? Some of the trad is sphinter seeringly scary... yeah maybe the sport stuff is overgraded, but for example all three pitchesI did on Crow were hard for the grade AND needed cleaning... Sullenburger, E1 5c my arse - the first pitch had F6b+ moves on it, and the other pitches weren't THAT much easier.

In reply to beardy mike:

I was only really thinking of the sport tbh. Funny you should mention the crow. My friend and I did the first three pitches last weekend and I agree it felt pretty hard. I was a little disheartened to see so many votes for soft e3 on the UKC logbook!

In reply to duncan b:

I guess the gears not SOO bad so maybe that's what they'reon about? But the crux pitch was stoopid hard. I was so pumped all the blood that was meant to be in my brain was in my forearms...

In reply to Mike Highbury:


Its one of the few middle of the grade HVS there.

In reply to GrahamD:

Think I've done all the HVS's at Shorncliff and found Tigers Don't Cry, by far the hardest. Strenuous and technical.

Thought Organ Grinder was VS4b, but it got upgraded. Sustained but not technical.

Funny how we're all different!

In reply to alan moore:

PProbably not Organ Grinder I'm thinking of. I thought there was another HVS crack similar in character to Tigers Don't Cry ? For what its worth I think Tigers Don't Cry perfectly encapsulates what HVS cracks should feel like and yes its very much tougher than other HVS here.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Well, I know we've discussed this one numerous times on UKC and many folk beg to differ, but:
Ardverikie Wall (HS 4b)
Given Mild Severe by first ascensionists Lang and Hunter (see Graeme Hunter's comment at the foot of the Logbook page) and straight Severe in my book, but just not Hard Severe or 4b.

Likewise:
Pine Wall (HS)
Which has (at various times) been Severe, V Diff, Mild Severe and (currently) Hard Severe, but is pretty well run-out V Diff.

NB No sandbagging here, but simply genuine conviction!

In reply to duncan b: that's how it was originally done and the way I did it when we combined it with Scorch the Earth a little later.

In reply to Misha:
E5 has to start somewhere. I think that the majority of E5 leads are of the softest in each area. i.e. Right Wall, Warpath, Pacemaker etc

In reply to mark hounslea:
Agree

In reply to deacondeacon: I think Electric Circus is generally agreed to be E2...any suggestion of VS is silly nonsense.

Which E4s did you do and what did you think they should be?

Honcho?
Bionic's Wall?
...erm?

In reply to deacondeacon: All those lines on the Bus Stop Quarry slab. I haven't found a move harder than 5a and every move is a rest.

In reply to Frank the Husky:




Honcho, Bionics Wall and Short Circut. A good set of routes but on the day I reckoned they all felt about E3.
The ukc logbooks are partly agreeing with me too.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Two E1's have been downgraded recently:
Namenlos (my first ever E1)
Three Pebble Slab.

TPS's grade has been debated to death but i think the grade of "E0" would be a good compromise.

In reply to GrahamD:


This one? Organ Grinder (HVS 5a)

I'm pretty sure it's HVS...

In reply to petestack:
Ardverikie Wall (HS 4b)

I think its worth HS because of the potential to deck out from 50m (pitch2), easy climbing but surprising lack of gear, a classic HS suprise.

Not 4b though

In reply to Mike-W-99:

I was hoping no-one would mention those.....

In reply to John Kelly:


But the run-out bit's about Diff!

In reply to petestack:

rushed up the easy slab, chose the rightward trending blind crack, confident years of crafty gear placements will save me, 15m + above last piece, beginning to get worried, how far, how much rope left, finally spot the belay 20m? of diff, yes maybe but, it felt like HS to me

In reply to Trangia:

Disagree.
I have done it over twenty times, mostly solo but also taken friends and non climbers up it.
If it is "very over graded" as you say, you must be thinking in terms of Diff or V.Diff.
This might be accurate for 80% of the route but not for the top traverse.

Satan's Slip is more of a soft touch at the grade than Devil's Slide.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I think the top traverse is overrated. I'd put most of the route at Diff, maybe hard Diff, and the raverse at V Diff, maybe Hard V Diff, but I suppose like all grading it's subjective.

Not done Satan's Slip, but have led Albion which I'd put at VS, which is what it is graded at, although when wet it can be a bit hairy.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Callum's Rest at Inverpollaidh Rock Gym is probably 2 full grades out at E2.

In reply to deacondeacon:

"Hubble" - soft touch for 9a. Considered by Megos to be easier than Kabbah (8c+).

Sorry - couldn't resist.

In reply to deacondeacon:

Looning the Tube is a piece of piss! VS max - ace route though!