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For those struggling to comprehend this morning's news can I suggest listening to the following podcast
https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2016/sep/19/how-the-great-paradox-of...
Or to read it https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/07/how-great-paradox-american-...
It wont make the news any easier to bear, but it's very interesting
https://www.theguardian.com/news/audio/2016/sep/19/how-the-great-paradox-of...
Or to read it https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/07/how-great-paradox-american-...
It wont make the news any easier to bear, but it's very interesting
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Tlr.
He's fulfilling the Prophecy.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/simpsons-predicted-president-trump-...
Tlr.
He's fulfilling the Prophecy.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/simpsons-predicted-president-trump-...
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
It is ome time since I read it but "Deer Hunting with Jesus" gave some insight into how the Republicans endear themselves to the poor in America.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Deer-Hunting-Jesus-Votes-Delusion-Redneck-Am...
It is ome time since I read it but "Deer Hunting with Jesus" gave some insight into how the Republicans endear themselves to the poor in America.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Deer-Hunting-Jesus-Votes-Delusion-Redneck-Am...
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
About the only thing I can see that might have made people vote for him, is the changes he's promised to take the money and influence out of politics.
But considering he lied 34 times!!! in his last TV debate with Hilary, then I don't think I could possibly vote for him.
It's a funny old world.
About the only thing I can see that might have made people vote for him, is the changes he's promised to take the money and influence out of politics.
But considering he lied 34 times!!! in his last TV debate with Hilary, then I don't think I could possibly vote for him.
It's a funny old world.
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In reply to krikoman:
I'm sorry, what?
> he's promised to take the money and influence out of politics.
I'm sorry, what?
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
"Early on in his presidential bid, Donald Trump began touting his anti-establishment credentials. When it worked, he ran with it. It was a posture that proved pure gold in the Republican primaries, and was even, in one sense, true. After all, he’d never been part of the political establishment nor held public office, nor had any of his family members or wives."
It doesn't mean he'll keep to his promises, but it is what he said. I suspect he was lying here too.
"Early on in his presidential bid, Donald Trump began touting his anti-establishment credentials. When it worked, he ran with it. It was a posture that proved pure gold in the Republican primaries, and was even, in one sense, true. After all, he’d never been part of the political establishment nor held public office, nor had any of his family members or wives."
It doesn't mean he'll keep to his promises, but it is what he said. I suspect he was lying here too.
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Very interesting, thanks.
> For those struggling to comprehend this morning's news can I suggest listening to the following podcast
Very interesting, thanks.
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In reply to krikoman:
Yes, he has no environmental credibility either.
> Drain the Swamp - remember?
Yes, he has no environmental credibility either.
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In reply to krikoman:
I just do not get how a rich millionaire born into money who directly massively profited from government schemes to redevelop down towns is ant establishment
I just do not get how a rich millionaire born into money who directly massively profited from government schemes to redevelop down towns is ant establishment
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Messages of congratulations from most of the world leaders, except Mexico.
Maybe they are tied up on the phone to B&Q
Messages of congratulations from most of the world leaders, except Mexico.
Maybe they are tied up on the phone to B&Q
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
I think it's all about perception. 'I'm not a politician, I'm not like them, I've run my own business, I know what life is like for working people, I'll bring manufacturing back to the USA...' Repeat the same message(s) lots of times and you're a winner if you strike enough nerves - can tap into people's feelings.
> I just do not get how a rich millionaire born into money who directly massively profited from government schemes to redevelop down towns is ant establishment
I think it's all about perception. 'I'm not a politician, I'm not like them, I've run my own business, I know what life is like for working people, I'll bring manufacturing back to the USA...' Repeat the same message(s) lots of times and you're a winner if you strike enough nerves - can tap into people's feelings.
Post edited at 14:53
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In reply to m0unt41n:
He did, about 20 minutes ago, in 3 tweets. But conspicuously congratulated the US and not Trump.
http://bbc.in/2fZxU8L
> Messages of congratulations from most of the world leaders, except Mexico.
He did, about 20 minutes ago, in 3 tweets. But conspicuously congratulated the US and not Trump.
http://bbc.in/2fZxU8L
In reply to Roadrunner5:
It's not so much anti-establishment as anti-government - Clinton is seen as a career politician, someone from within the Beltway, whereas Trump is a successful businessman*, the sort of person his supporters aspire to be. They don't want government interference, even if it is to help them or protect their environment. This is the paradox explained in the podcast. The "Great America" they want back seems to be sometime in the 1950s, a time when American industry was booming and you knew where you stood, before civil rights, affirmative action, gender equality, free trade and environmental protections.
* The fact that he inherited his wealth is easily ignored, like all his failed ventures
> I just do not get how a rich millionaire born into money who directly massively profited from government schemes to redevelop down towns is ant establishment
It's not so much anti-establishment as anti-government - Clinton is seen as a career politician, someone from within the Beltway, whereas Trump is a successful businessman*, the sort of person his supporters aspire to be. They don't want government interference, even if it is to help them or protect their environment. This is the paradox explained in the podcast. The "Great America" they want back seems to be sometime in the 1950s, a time when American industry was booming and you knew where you stood, before civil rights, affirmative action, gender equality, free trade and environmental protections.
* The fact that he inherited his wealth is easily ignored, like all his failed ventures
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
I walked into school to be told this was gods will....
It's a catholic school so trumps pro life, on the plus side I got the first block off for my response to the teacher
I walked into school to be told this was gods will....
It's a catholic school so trumps pro life, on the plus side I got the first block off for my response to the teacher
Post edited at 16:45
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
I'm tempted to be glib and say that is because you have a grain of intelligence, but actually it is because you have been exposed to education, which is where the problem lies, here as well as there.
> I just do not get how a rich millionaire born into money who directly massively profited from government schemes to redevelop down towns is ant establishment
I'm tempted to be glib and say that is because you have a grain of intelligence, but actually it is because you have been exposed to education, which is where the problem lies, here as well as there.
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
I'm coming, er, 'home' on Saturday. Really afraid of the conversations I am going to have. You've given me courage.
I'm coming, er, 'home' on Saturday. Really afraid of the conversations I am going to have. You've given me courage.
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Trump's tactics remind me a bit of Putin in Russia. He couldn't care less about the better-educated metropolitan elite in Moscow and St Petersburg (around 20 million) and works on the less well educated majority (around 120 million). You can't fault the logic. As others have said, there's an issue of education.
Trump's tactics remind me a bit of Putin in Russia. He couldn't care less about the better-educated metropolitan elite in Moscow and St Petersburg (around 20 million) and works on the less well educated majority (around 120 million). You can't fault the logic. As others have said, there's an issue of education.
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In reply to Yanis Nayu:
I wonder what the other politicians that are about to face upcoming elections are thinking now.
I'm pretty sure they are all tweaking their policies/ manifestos to appeal to the type of people that they probably previously ignored , because they could rely on them not to vote.
> Trump's tactics remind me a bit of Putin in Russia. He couldn't care less about the better-educated metropolitan elite in Moscow and St Petersburg (around 20 million) and works on the less well educated majority (around 120 million). You can't fault the logic. As others have said, there's an issue of education.
I wonder what the other politicians that are about to face upcoming elections are thinking now.
I'm pretty sure they are all tweaking their policies/ manifestos to appeal to the type of people that they probably previously ignored , because they could rely on them not to vote.
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In reply to Jim C:
Hillary received the popular vote.. They don't have to change their stance. She just screwed up the electoral college and missed some states she thought was safe
Hillary received the popular vote.. They don't have to change their stance. She just screwed up the electoral college and missed some states she thought was safe
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
That's it. We're all in an alternative version of Back to the Future where Biff has to become president to get access to the CIA time machine hidden in Area 51 so he can go back and kick Marty McFly's ass.
> The "Great America" they want back seems to be sometime in the 1950s,
That's it. We're all in an alternative version of Back to the Future where Biff has to become president to get access to the CIA time machine hidden in Area 51 so he can go back and kick Marty McFly's ass.
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Given that the inauguration is not until January then I guess that the FBI director is going to have to wait until next year for his Christmas bonus.
Given that the inauguration is not until January then I guess that the FBI director is going to have to wait until next year for his Christmas bonus.
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
Or maybe take an evening class in current affairs.
> For those struggling to comprehend this morning's news can I suggest listening to the following podcast
Or maybe take an evening class in current affairs.
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In reply to m0unt41n:
The FBI was a factor and maybe contributed to poor voter turnout.
Turnout was low all around,
Voter suppression worked, but also Sanders didn't get his base out. She was also to blame but the third party and no showers were also a factor.
In such a divisive campaign only 46% voted.
The FBI was a factor and maybe contributed to poor voter turnout.
Turnout was low all around,
Voter suppression worked, but also Sanders didn't get his base out. She was also to blame but the third party and no showers were also a factor.
In such a divisive campaign only 46% voted.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
I think that's the closest I've come to a laugh in the last 24 hours, thanks.
I think that's the closest I've come to a laugh in the last 24 hours, thanks.
In reply to Roadrunner5:
I read that Trump won with the same number of total votes, that Romney previously lost on. I think the campaign must have just turned so many people off politics. Sometimes divisive campaigns draw voters out, Scottish referendum for example. For what ever reason it didn't happen in the usa.
> In such a divisive campaign only 46% voted.
I read that Trump won with the same number of total votes, that Romney previously lost on. I think the campaign must have just turned so many people off politics. Sometimes divisive campaigns draw voters out, Scottish referendum for example. For what ever reason it didn't happen in the usa.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I read in the Economist that the derivation of the word 'Parliment' comes from two French words; Parler - to speak, and Mentir - to lie.
There is a part of me that still wants to believe that Donald is a Democrat mole who has just lied his way into power to break the Republican party. He was big mates with the Clinton s after all. But I know it's just denial.
I read in the Economist that the derivation of the word 'Parliment' comes from two French words; Parler - to speak, and Mentir - to lie.
There is a part of me that still wants to believe that Donald is a Democrat mole who has just lied his way into power to break the Republican party. He was big mates with the Clinton s after all. But I know it's just denial.
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
I find it hard to believe the Trump as all-seeing master strategist narrative whilst also believing the 'Trump, a man so emotionally incontinent he can't be trusted with a Twitter account' narrative. Given he seems to have churned through senior campaign staff during his run with little loss of momentum I can't quite believe this is the work of a master puppeteer in the shadows so we're left with the possibility there was a big chunk of dumb luck involved and this was just his time, the last desperate gasps of white supremacy. Let's hope it's the death rattle.
jk
I find it hard to believe the Trump as all-seeing master strategist narrative whilst also believing the 'Trump, a man so emotionally incontinent he can't be trusted with a Twitter account' narrative. Given he seems to have churned through senior campaign staff during his run with little loss of momentum I can't quite believe this is the work of a master puppeteer in the shadows so we're left with the possibility there was a big chunk of dumb luck involved and this was just his time, the last desperate gasps of white supremacy. Let's hope it's the death rattle.
jk
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In reply to jkarran:
That sort of extreme attitude and insult from the safety of a keyboard is exactly why he won. You need to get real and see what's happening in the world. It's not full of Jeremies, by the way that's not what the J in your name stands for is it?
If it's not I bet you wish it was though...
> I find it hard to believe the Trump as all-seeing master strategist narrative whilst also believing the 'Trump, a man so emotionally incontinent he can't be trusted with a Twitter account' narrative. Given he seems to have churned through senior campaign staff during his run with little loss of momentum I can't quite believe this is the work of a master puppeteer in the shadows so we're left with the possibility there was a big chunk of dumb luck involved and this was just his time, the last desperate gasps of white supremacy. Let's hope it's the death rattle.
That sort of extreme attitude and insult from the safety of a keyboard is exactly why he won. You need to get real and see what's happening in the world. It's not full of Jeremies, by the way that's not what the J in your name stands for is it?
If it's not I bet you wish it was though...
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In reply to Jim 1003:
Out of curiosity are you pissed? Since I am not sure why you would dribble out a response like that otherwise.
> If it's not I bet you wish it was though...
Out of curiosity are you pissed? Since I am not sure why you would dribble out a response like that otherwise.
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
But we are talking about European leaders coming up for elections, under different voting systems.
> Hillary received the popular vote.. They don't have to change their stance. She just screwed up the electoral college and missed some states she thought was safe
But we are talking about European leaders coming up for elections, under different voting systems.
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In reply to KevinD:
I'm teetotal. I'm not really interested in what you can figure out or not, as it is unlikely to be of much significance.
> Out of curiosity are you pissed? Since I am not sure why you would dribble out a response like that otherwise.
I'm teetotal. I'm not really interested in what you can figure out or not, as it is unlikely to be of much significance.
Post edited at 00:18
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
More informative podcasts:
How a Trump presidency might herald changes in the world order, from the Financial Times World Weekly: http://podcast.ft.com/2016/11/09/trump-win-stuns-americas-allies-2/
An answer to idiots who spout the "all Americans are stupid" line, the Slate Trumpcast: http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/trumpcast/2016/11/how_do_we_move_thi...
More informative podcasts:
How a Trump presidency might herald changes in the world order, from the Financial Times World Weekly: http://podcast.ft.com/2016/11/09/trump-win-stuns-americas-allies-2/
An answer to idiots who spout the "all Americans are stupid" line, the Slate Trumpcast: http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/trumpcast/2016/11/how_do_we_move_thi...
Post edited at 08:00
In reply to Roadrunner5:
Me neither, but that's what he's said, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't tell lies, he a politician for goodness sake!!!!
> I just do not get how a rich millionaire born into money who directly massively profited from government schemes to redevelop down towns is ant establishment
Me neither, but that's what he's said, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't tell lies, he a politician for goodness sake!!!!
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In reply to Jim 1003:
Tell me about your world Jim, I keep asking what I think is a simple question and you keep evading it. What is it you so hate about 'Jeremies', what they stand for and espouse? What would you do differently to make our country a better place?
My name is James and I'm quite content with it thanks.
jk
> That sort of extreme attitude and insult from the safety of a keyboard is exactly why he won. You need to get real and see what's happening in the world. It's not full of Jeremies, by the way that's not what the J in your name stands for is it?
Tell me about your world Jim, I keep asking what I think is a simple question and you keep evading it. What is it you so hate about 'Jeremies', what they stand for and espouse? What would you do differently to make our country a better place?
> If it's not I bet you wish it was though...
My name is James and I'm quite content with it thanks.
jk
Post edited at 09:58
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In reply to James B:
I don't think Trump supporters are necessarily stupid. They have quite valid reasons for voting Trump. Unfortunately their priorities just come across a bit screwed.
By all means, vote Trump because Hillary is odious, you're sick of being labelled a slob, a racist, a misogynist, tired of being told you must sit at the second tier of the 1st amend because you, as a white, are apparently privileged, and by all means because you live in fear of losing your minimum wage job.
My sympathy runs out however when they decide all that takes precedence over the planet and its habitat. Anyone who would back out of the most important climate change agreement reached to date, who would deny anthropogenic global warming exists, and who would appoint an avowed climate change sceptic as head of the EPA, isn't fit for office.
I don't think Trump supporters are necessarily stupid. They have quite valid reasons for voting Trump. Unfortunately their priorities just come across a bit screwed.
By all means, vote Trump because Hillary is odious, you're sick of being labelled a slob, a racist, a misogynist, tired of being told you must sit at the second tier of the 1st amend because you, as a white, are apparently privileged, and by all means because you live in fear of losing your minimum wage job.
My sympathy runs out however when they decide all that takes precedence over the planet and its habitat. Anyone who would back out of the most important climate change agreement reached to date, who would deny anthropogenic global warming exists, and who would appoint an avowed climate change sceptic as head of the EPA, isn't fit for office.
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In reply to Jim 1003:
Sorry, should have added this to my previous post... What do you see in my post that is either extreme or insulting? It's basically a response to the exit poll data that has emerged post election. White Americans, male and female, rich and poor overwhelmingly voted Trump, that is despite or perhaps in part because of his overtly racist dogwhistle campaign. With demographic shifts this may very well be that last American election where white folk as a block disparate as they are, united predominantly by colour have that power.
jk
> That sort of extreme attitude and insult from the safety of a keyboard is exactly why he won.
Sorry, should have added this to my previous post... What do you see in my post that is either extreme or insulting? It's basically a response to the exit poll data that has emerged post election. White Americans, male and female, rich and poor overwhelmingly voted Trump, that is despite or perhaps in part because of his overtly racist dogwhistle campaign. With demographic shifts this may very well be that last American election where white folk as a block disparate as they are, united predominantly by colour have that power.
jk
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In reply to jkarran:
The report that 53% of white women voted for Trump comes as a big surprise (I struggle to understand how any woman could vote for him), but it goes some way to explaining his victory. We may see him as merely appealing to the blue-collar rednecks, but clearly he has got support far beyond that, with people who are prepared to overlook his odious personality and misogyny and back him because of what he stands for. And there are plenty of women, at all levels of wealth and education, who will back lower taxes against welfare and public healthcare, small government against environmental protection and affirmative action, and who are opposed to abortion.
The one crucial demographic factor seems to be age - if their is hope, it lies with the youth.
> White Americans, male and female, rich and poor overwhelmingly voted Trump
The report that 53% of white women voted for Trump comes as a big surprise (I struggle to understand how any woman could vote for him), but it goes some way to explaining his victory. We may see him as merely appealing to the blue-collar rednecks, but clearly he has got support far beyond that, with people who are prepared to overlook his odious personality and misogyny and back him because of what he stands for. And there are plenty of women, at all levels of wealth and education, who will back lower taxes against welfare and public healthcare, small government against environmental protection and affirmative action, and who are opposed to abortion.
The one crucial demographic factor seems to be age - if their is hope, it lies with the youth.
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