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Where is it best to skimp on gear? Trousers? Are £100 trousers worth it?
I've always thought boots and backpack should be no expense spared, but would be interested to hear opinions.
I've always thought boots and backpack should be no expense spared, but would be interested to hear opinions.
3
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In reply to zimpara:
Everything costs what it does for a reason. Whether something's worth it depends on whether that reason corresponds with your reason for buying it
> Are £100 trousers worth it?
Everything costs what it does for a reason. Whether something's worth it depends on whether that reason corresponds with your reason for buying it
14
In reply to zimpara:
Not for "cragging" on somewhere like Stanage, but for more mountaineering type environments, and I would include Cloggy etc. most definitely. I had some Mammut soft shell trousers when soft shell first came out. They set me back £130 and that was some years ago, but they lasted 20 years with an alpine trip every year and at least one winter trip to the alps, Rjukan etc.
Al
> Where is it best to skimp on gear? Trousers? Are £100 trousers worth it?
Not for "cragging" on somewhere like Stanage, but for more mountaineering type environments, and I would include Cloggy etc. most definitely. I had some Mammut soft shell trousers when soft shell first came out. They set me back £130 and that was some years ago, but they lasted 20 years with an alpine trip every year and at least one winter trip to the alps, Rjukan etc.
Al
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In reply to zimpara:
Base-layers. I was on a "Thermal Environment" course this week that included a trip to Portsmouth University to visit their Extreme Weather Lab. Our host (a Phd in whatever) told us they had tested the wicking properties of £4 base layers up to £50-60 top brand items and there was absolutely no difference. So stock up the next time you're at a Decathlon store or that massive Quechua store just outside Chamonix.
Base-layers. I was on a "Thermal Environment" course this week that included a trip to Portsmouth University to visit their Extreme Weather Lab. Our host (a Phd in whatever) told us they had tested the wicking properties of £4 base layers up to £50-60 top brand items and there was absolutely no difference. So stock up the next time you're at a Decathlon store or that massive Quechua store just outside Chamonix.
Post edited at 12:00
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In reply to zimpara:
Don't skimp on gear for serious mountaineering, but then only use it for serious mountaineering; wear your knackered old stuff for cragging and hill walking.
> Where is it best to skimp on gear? Trousers?
Don't skimp on gear for serious mountaineering, but then only use it for serious mountaineering; wear your knackered old stuff for cragging and hill walking.
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1
In reply to Giles Davis:
Ah, but some base layers are pretty smelly, even if they let the sweat out.
I agree about cheap stuff for cragging. I have a decathlon Simond soft-shell for £35 because I know I'm going to rip it to shreds at some point and £5 trousers for the same reason
Ah, but some base layers are pretty smelly, even if they let the sweat out.
I agree about cheap stuff for cragging. I have a decathlon Simond soft-shell for £35 because I know I'm going to rip it to shreds at some point and £5 trousers for the same reason
5
In reply to zimpara:
Depends what you can manage with. I've had long, hard days in Scotland in winter with very cheap gear and been fine while friends have been freezing wearing a grand. I'm lucky I don't get cold easy, but in hindsight I wish I'd started out more cautious and not had such a risk. Fit is as important at least as quality though, cheap well fitting boots trump expensive not quite right ones every time
Probably the biggest thing I've noticed is you can take far less layers and bulk if it's good quality need to change less.
Depends what you can manage with. I've had long, hard days in Scotland in winter with very cheap gear and been fine while friends have been freezing wearing a grand. I'm lucky I don't get cold easy, but in hindsight I wish I'd started out more cautious and not had such a risk. Fit is as important at least as quality though, cheap well fitting boots trump expensive not quite right ones every time
Probably the biggest thing I've noticed is you can take far less layers and bulk if it's good quality need to change less.
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In reply to Cake:
I think I may have the same Simmond Soft Shell. It's brilliant and at £35 you don't mind getting it scuffed up and covered in chalk.
I think I may have the same Simmond Soft Shell. It's brilliant and at £35 you don't mind getting it scuffed up and covered in chalk.
Post edited at 12:54
In reply to Giles Davis:
Also trying out a Simond sack, bit it's too early to say whether its the business yet. My last cheap karrimor sack lasted 13 years
Also trying out a Simond sack, bit it's too early to say whether its the business yet. My last cheap karrimor sack lasted 13 years
1
In reply to zimpara:
I'm pretty much 'man at Decathlon' these days -
I'll only wear a waterproof if it's actually raining, so for Scottish winter there's a set of those in a rucksack, excluding trousers if it doesn't look like it's going to rain on the way in. £120 max on lightweight goretex in a sale
Decathlon soft shell, thin fleece and baselayer. Decathlon running tight under branded softshell trousers - currently Rab. For trousers, it's all about the fit for me, so these have good fabric and no 'features' and were £70. I prefer them to their predecessor a £140 offering form Mammut.
Gloves - decathlon inners and BD Punishers - false economy scrimping on gloves (but then I do have something of a fixation about gloves)
Boots and socks - best socks I can find and Nepal Extremes. I don't want Goretex lined boots - the immediate question with those is 'what's wrong with the leather that they need a goretex lining?'
Rucksack - currently on a Blue Ice Yeti - bought in a sale, but first rate.
Walking poles - BD
Axes - something solid. BD. Maybe some new ones if Santa thinks I've been good this year. Nothing wrong with the old ones at all. They won't be cheap....
Summer cragging - any old disposable crap, plus a montane pertex smock. Current ensemble is some high street trousers, a tee shirt and long sleeved baselayer, a thin fleece (Decathlon) and a thin old woolen jumper.
I'm pretty much 'man at Decathlon' these days -
I'll only wear a waterproof if it's actually raining, so for Scottish winter there's a set of those in a rucksack, excluding trousers if it doesn't look like it's going to rain on the way in. £120 max on lightweight goretex in a sale
Decathlon soft shell, thin fleece and baselayer. Decathlon running tight under branded softshell trousers - currently Rab. For trousers, it's all about the fit for me, so these have good fabric and no 'features' and were £70. I prefer them to their predecessor a £140 offering form Mammut.
Gloves - decathlon inners and BD Punishers - false economy scrimping on gloves (but then I do have something of a fixation about gloves)
Boots and socks - best socks I can find and Nepal Extremes. I don't want Goretex lined boots - the immediate question with those is 'what's wrong with the leather that they need a goretex lining?'
Rucksack - currently on a Blue Ice Yeti - bought in a sale, but first rate.
Walking poles - BD
Axes - something solid. BD. Maybe some new ones if Santa thinks I've been good this year. Nothing wrong with the old ones at all. They won't be cheap....
Summer cragging - any old disposable crap, plus a montane pertex smock. Current ensemble is some high street trousers, a tee shirt and long sleeved baselayer, a thin fleece (Decathlon) and a thin old woolen jumper.
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In reply to zimpara:
Normal trousers? no.
Overtrousers? yes.
> Where is it best to skimp on gear? Trousers? Are £100 trousers worth it?
>
>
Normal trousers? no.
Overtrousers? yes.
2
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In reply to nniff:
The answer is usually that they're synthetic (lighter and suits those with ethics issues around wearing a dead cow skin) and need a waterproof membrane.
> Boots and socks - best socks I can find and Nepal Extremes. I don't want Goretex lined boots - the immediate question with those is 'what's wrong with the leather that they need a goretex lining?'
The answer is usually that they're synthetic (lighter and suits those with ethics issues around wearing a dead cow skin) and need a waterproof membrane.
2
2
In reply to zimpara:
I would skimp on toothbrushes. I saw one recently selling for £17.50. Just use a worn out dental toothbrush instead.
You can also skimp on chalk. The Americans have invented really expensive chalk now. Just buy the normal stuff.
Climbing boots. On the occasional route at the occasional crag it's nice to have some really good boots. But for 95% of the time you don't really need them, especially indoors. Save a load by using cheap(ish) boots most of the time and your good pair only when essential.
Clothing? I don't think you can even buy climbing clothing these days. What passes as climbing clothing is mostly to do with fashion rather than performance and is massively overpriced. Just get stuff suitable for some other sport like hiking etc. at a fraction of the cost.
Ropes. I don't think the really light ones are going to make much difference unless you're on a really long pitch - and there aren't that many long routes over here. So use a 10mm (unless you're really light) which will last much longer than say a 9.2.
Sewn slings. You can just buy tape off a roll and make your own slings using a hot knife and a tape knot. Though it's getting increasingly difficult to find tape on a roll.
Karabiners. They're mostly all the same so just get what's cheapest so long as they're not loads heavier.
I would skimp on toothbrushes. I saw one recently selling for £17.50. Just use a worn out dental toothbrush instead.
You can also skimp on chalk. The Americans have invented really expensive chalk now. Just buy the normal stuff.
Climbing boots. On the occasional route at the occasional crag it's nice to have some really good boots. But for 95% of the time you don't really need them, especially indoors. Save a load by using cheap(ish) boots most of the time and your good pair only when essential.
Clothing? I don't think you can even buy climbing clothing these days. What passes as climbing clothing is mostly to do with fashion rather than performance and is massively overpriced. Just get stuff suitable for some other sport like hiking etc. at a fraction of the cost.
Ropes. I don't think the really light ones are going to make much difference unless you're on a really long pitch - and there aren't that many long routes over here. So use a 10mm (unless you're really light) which will last much longer than say a 9.2.
Sewn slings. You can just buy tape off a roll and make your own slings using a hot knife and a tape knot. Though it's getting increasingly difficult to find tape on a roll.
Karabiners. They're mostly all the same so just get what's cheapest so long as they're not loads heavier.
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In reply to Giles Davis:
Sorry, I'm pretty dumb. Quick release of what? The lid comes off and so does the waistband and it had other features I won't use for ski-mountaineering. It's light blue, and about 40 litres
Sorry, I'm pretty dumb. Quick release of what? The lid comes off and so does the waistband and it had other features I won't use for ski-mountaineering. It's light blue, and about 40 litres
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In reply to zimpara:
Mrs Num Num often buys budget trousers.
Normally the crotch splits open dramatically when she's doing some wide bridging on chimney pitches.
Which for folk below offers a gruesome photo opportunity.
Mrs Num Num often buys budget trousers.
Normally the crotch splits open dramatically when she's doing some wide bridging on chimney pitches.
Which for folk below offers a gruesome photo opportunity.
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In reply to zimpara:
I skimped on climbing jeans once. Never again.
I thought I could just buy any old jeans and use them for climbing, how wrong can a man be? My onsight dropped from font 5 straight down to 4+ I was devastated.
I skimped on climbing jeans once. Never again.
I thought I could just buy any old jeans and use them for climbing, how wrong can a man be? My onsight dropped from font 5 straight down to 4+ I was devastated.
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In reply to Cake:
This type https://www.simond.com/cliff-20-ii-blue-backpack-id_8302352?notes=5
Although I think I bought a slightly more advanced one from Italy a couple of weeks ago.
This type https://www.simond.com/cliff-20-ii-blue-backpack-id_8302352?notes=5
Although I think I bought a slightly more advanced one from Italy a couple of weeks ago.
Post edited at 19:15
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Because they pay their factory workers properly?
> Because it says Patagonia on it?
Because they pay their factory workers properly?
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In reply to stp:
I'm not sure I agree with this; if you wear knackered or sloppy boots 95% of the time, you might develop sloppy footwork or lose the confidence in your footwork that you really need the other 5% of the time.
> Climbing boots. On the occasional route at the occasional crag it's nice to have some really good boots. But for 95% of the time you don't really need them, especially indoors. Save a load by using cheap(ish) boots most of the time and your good pair only when essential.
I'm not sure I agree with this; if you wear knackered or sloppy boots 95% of the time, you might develop sloppy footwork or lose the confidence in your footwork that you really need the other 5% of the time.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I think good boots are essential for very small holds. But most of the time I've found there's not that much with really small holds. Malham is one place where good boots are often essential and can really make a difference.
I went to Kalymnos this year with a good pair and a cheap pair. The cheap, new pair I discovered were actually on the large size. I was concerned because the good pair were starting to wear and I thought I'd need them for everything. But in the end I think I only used the good pair once or twice in 3 and half weeks of climbing. The featured rock has mostly large footholds there.
I also think using small footholds is only one little part of good footwork. It's much more about where you put your feet, which direction you angle them, outside edge, inside or toe, smearing etc.
Finally I'd say that cheaper boots aren't necessarily that much worse than expensive ones. So this marginal difference is only necessary on certain rock types.
I think good boots are essential for very small holds. But most of the time I've found there's not that much with really small holds. Malham is one place where good boots are often essential and can really make a difference.
I went to Kalymnos this year with a good pair and a cheap pair. The cheap, new pair I discovered were actually on the large size. I was concerned because the good pair were starting to wear and I thought I'd need them for everything. But in the end I think I only used the good pair once or twice in 3 and half weeks of climbing. The featured rock has mostly large footholds there.
I also think using small footholds is only one little part of good footwork. It's much more about where you put your feet, which direction you angle them, outside edge, inside or toe, smearing etc.
Finally I'd say that cheaper boots aren't necessarily that much worse than expensive ones. So this marginal difference is only necessary on certain rock types.
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In reply to GridNorth:
Me too Al, and I've still got 'em and still wear 'em when and where appropriate. Bought in 2000 for a trip to Colorado and Wyoming. About the same price too, from Outside in Hathersage - Schoeller fabric - could be the very same? A great buy anyway.
> I had some Mammut soft shell trousers when soft shell first came out. They set me back £130 and that was some years ago, but they lasted 20 years with an alpine trip every year and at least one winter trip to the alps, Rjukan etc.
> Al
Me too Al, and I've still got 'em and still wear 'em when and where appropriate. Bought in 2000 for a trip to Colorado and Wyoming. About the same price too, from Outside in Hathersage - Schoeller fabric - could be the very same? A great buy anyway.
In reply to Martin Bennett:
I've got expensive soft shell breeks nowadays because I can , but there are many hill conditions short of sub zero force7+ whiteout s where my old Ron Hill trackies are more comfortable, except for anyone who has to look at me whilst wearing them. So it's fine to skimp on trousers some of the time.
Other good scimps: clothes for work. Expensive, special athlete food/ energy drinks etc. And a partner who is either rich or cheap or both is also good for climbing expenditure....
I've got expensive soft shell breeks nowadays because I can , but there are many hill conditions short of sub zero force7+ whiteout s where my old Ron Hill trackies are more comfortable, except for anyone who has to look at me whilst wearing them. So it's fine to skimp on trousers some of the time.
Other good scimps: clothes for work. Expensive, special athlete food/ energy drinks etc. And a partner who is either rich or cheap or both is also good for climbing expenditure....
1
In reply to zimpara:
With many years behind me I've now adopted the principle that it's Decathlon stuff for everyday cragging/hiking/etc, and keep my 'high end' stuff for serious days out and expeds.
With many years behind me I've now adopted the principle that it's Decathlon stuff for everyday cragging/hiking/etc, and keep my 'high end' stuff for serious days out and expeds.
In reply to Giles Davis:
No, this one.
https://www.simond.com/jorasses-backpack-40-l-id_8241621
In reply to Ian Stevens: I do have to live with the guilt of buying from Decathlon, where everything is made in China. But the fact is that the likes of Patagonia, Rab and Arctyryx do over price some of their stuff (I know some of it is worth it)
No, this one.
https://www.simond.com/jorasses-backpack-40-l-id_8241621
In reply to Ian Stevens: I do have to live with the guilt of buying from Decathlon, where everything is made in China. But the fact is that the likes of Patagonia, Rab and Arctyryx do over price some of their stuff (I know some of it is worth it)
In reply to colinakmc:
I'm with you, my first place to skimp, is on the budget for my wife's shoes and handbag habit.
( If I can just get her on drugs instead I will save a fortune
> And a partner who is either rich or cheap or both is also good for climbing expenditure....
I'm with you, my first place to skimp, is on the budget for my wife's shoes and handbag habit.
( If I can just get her on drugs instead I will save a fortune
3
In reply to zimpara:
Surely for much UK cragging you could easily skimp on a back pack? I recon an IKEA bag would be fine for most peak venues?
Clothing
Woolly jumper from a charity shop. I did this once on a trip where didn't have enough warm stuff. Under £2 and functioned really well.
Ron Hill style bottoms work well
Did you see the quick draws John Aran linked to. They looked a steel
I think the thing not to skimp on, once you own a rack, is wall admission and crag transport
Surely for much UK cragging you could easily skimp on a back pack? I recon an IKEA bag would be fine for most peak venues?
Clothing
Woolly jumper from a charity shop. I did this once on a trip where didn't have enough warm stuff. Under £2 and functioned really well.
Ron Hill style bottoms work well
Did you see the quick draws John Aran linked to. They looked a steel
I think the thing not to skimp on, once you own a rack, is wall admission and crag transport
1
In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):
Well, as far as wall admission goes at least, here are a few top tips from the master:
youtube.com/watch?v=u2zg23N5zXY&
> I think the thing not to skimp on, once you own a rack, is wall admission and crag transport
Well, as far as wall admission goes at least, here are a few top tips from the master:
youtube.com/watch?v=u2zg23N5zXY&
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In reply to ianstevens:
Really? You try and find a pair (particularly walking boots). Easier said than done. Out of 7 leather boots in the la Sportiva mountain range, only 2 don't have a Goretex liner. OUt of the whole mountain boots range of 17 boots, only 2 or 3 don't have a goretex liner.
Who decided that was a good idea? Apparently, it's because people come in ask for them? But why?
> The answer is usually that they're synthetic (lighter and suits those with ethics issues around wearing a dead cow skin) and need a waterproof membrane.
Really? You try and find a pair (particularly walking boots). Easier said than done. Out of 7 leather boots in the la Sportiva mountain range, only 2 don't have a Goretex liner. OUt of the whole mountain boots range of 17 boots, only 2 or 3 don't have a goretex liner.
Who decided that was a good idea? Apparently, it's because people come in ask for them? But why?
In reply to Scarab9:
Well that's probably where they were going wrong. The insulation properties of currency are pretty inferior to, say, modern synthetic fibre or down.
> I've had long, hard days in Scotland in winter with very cheap gear and been fine while friends have been freezing wearing a grand.
Well that's probably where they were going wrong. The insulation properties of currency are pretty inferior to, say, modern synthetic fibre or down.
13
In reply to nniff:
It's all about keeping things light nowadays, and most of these materials aren't really waterproof and have to be gortex lined.
Triple reversed hide once piece leather is of course completely waterproof, but somewhat heavy.
I've still got a pair of Galibier Super Guide museum pieces, which have seen ferocious treatment over nearly forty years, and are still more than up to the job of an alpine north face, whereas I struggle to get more than five years out of modern boots.
But having said that, modern boots are a whole lot easier on the feet and legs
> Really? You try and find a pair (particularly walking boots). Easier said than done. Out of 7 leather boots in the la Sportiva mountain range, only 2 don't have a Goretex liner. OUt of the whole mountain boots range of 17 boots, only 2 or 3 don't have a goretex liner.
> Who decided that was a good idea? Apparently, it's because people come in ask for them? But why?
It's all about keeping things light nowadays, and most of these materials aren't really waterproof and have to be gortex lined.
Triple reversed hide once piece leather is of course completely waterproof, but somewhat heavy.
I've still got a pair of Galibier Super Guide museum pieces, which have seen ferocious treatment over nearly forty years, and are still more than up to the job of an alpine north face, whereas I struggle to get more than five years out of modern boots.
But having said that, modern boots are a whole lot easier on the feet and legs
3
In reply to planetmarshall:
But what about new polymer £5 notes versus the old cotton ones?
> Well that's probably where they were going wrong. The insulation properties of currency are pretty inferior to, say, modern synthetic fibre or down.
But what about new polymer £5 notes versus the old cotton ones?
3
In reply to zimpara:
IMO: Yes if the task in hand involves a chainsaw, no if the task in hand is playing about on rocks in which case some old tracksuit bottoms are fine. Then again... if you can be persuaded to spend £100 on superduper branded climbing trousers then arguably they're worth £100 to you. I'd think you a profligrate fool but I also think you shouldn't care what I think of you, it's none of my buisiness.
I've never been held back by my old, used, unfashionable, cobbled together, and never, ever 'high-end' gear.
jk
> Where is it best to skimp on gear? Trousers? Are £100 trousers worth it?
IMO: Yes if the task in hand involves a chainsaw, no if the task in hand is playing about on rocks in which case some old tracksuit bottoms are fine. Then again... if you can be persuaded to spend £100 on superduper branded climbing trousers then arguably they're worth £100 to you. I'd think you a profligrate fool but I also think you shouldn't care what I think of you, it's none of my buisiness.
> I've always thought boots and backpack should be no expense spared, but would be interested to hear opinions.
I've never been held back by my old, used, unfashionable, cobbled together, and never, ever 'high-end' gear.
jk
3
In reply to zimpara:
Unless unavoidable, I don't buy anything unless it's in the sale - I'm pretty much kitted out in end of season/closing down sale/outlet/staff discount stuff
I used to work in a gear shop and we had loads of DofE, Scouts, Guides and World Challenge kids in, often on a budget.
I used to advise that there were 5 things you shouldn't scrimp on, or, at least, buy the best you can afford (in no particular order):
1 - boots and socks - nothing worse than sore feet.
2 - waterproofs - need to stay dry
3 - sleeping bag - lighter to carry, less bulky and warmer.
4 - rucksack - needs to be comfortable
5 - fleece (debatable) - a good one will keep you warm and comfy - a bad one will have seams that rub under rucksack straps. I had a fleece once that was a promotional company-branded one - it seemed to be built with a large body, one medium sleeve and one small sleeve!
Pretty much anything else can be had on a budget - those days, I used to send kids to C&A and Millets, these days it'll be Millets, Decathlon and TK Maxx. My wife swears by M&S thermals and I've been very impressed with some Decathlon trousers, but find their sizes and cut don't often suit me.
The other side of the argument is "buy cheap, buy twice" and there's an element of that - I've got some bits of gear that have had all sorts of abuse for years and aren't showing any signs of falling apart. They were an expensive initial outlay, but the "pence per mile" is extremely low. In a couple of cases, I wish they would wear out, so I can buy some different colours!
Unless unavoidable, I don't buy anything unless it's in the sale - I'm pretty much kitted out in end of season/closing down sale/outlet/staff discount stuff
I used to work in a gear shop and we had loads of DofE, Scouts, Guides and World Challenge kids in, often on a budget.
I used to advise that there were 5 things you shouldn't scrimp on, or, at least, buy the best you can afford (in no particular order):
1 - boots and socks - nothing worse than sore feet.
2 - waterproofs - need to stay dry
3 - sleeping bag - lighter to carry, less bulky and warmer.
4 - rucksack - needs to be comfortable
5 - fleece (debatable) - a good one will keep you warm and comfy - a bad one will have seams that rub under rucksack straps. I had a fleece once that was a promotional company-branded one - it seemed to be built with a large body, one medium sleeve and one small sleeve!
Pretty much anything else can be had on a budget - those days, I used to send kids to C&A and Millets, these days it'll be Millets, Decathlon and TK Maxx. My wife swears by M&S thermals and I've been very impressed with some Decathlon trousers, but find their sizes and cut don't often suit me.
The other side of the argument is "buy cheap, buy twice" and there's an element of that - I've got some bits of gear that have had all sorts of abuse for years and aren't showing any signs of falling apart. They were an expensive initial outlay, but the "pence per mile" is extremely low. In a couple of cases, I wish they would wear out, so I can buy some different colours!
2
In reply to nniff:
I'll be honest, I hanve't tried to find a pair of leather walking boots in a very long time - as highlighted below, I find them heavy compared to other offerings, and somewhat hot, toasty and a bit sweaty, plus I like to avoid leather products full stop, so I avoid them.
I'd guess its partly a marketing thing as having gore-tex sounds better to the layman than not having it?
> Really? You try and find a pair (particularly walking boots). Easier said than done. Out of 7 leather boots in the la Sportiva mountain range, only 2 don't have a Goretex liner. OUt of the whole mountain boots range of 17 boots, only 2 or 3 don't have a goretex liner.
> Who decided that was a good idea? Apparently, it's because people come in ask for them? But why?
I'll be honest, I hanve't tried to find a pair of leather walking boots in a very long time - as highlighted below, I find them heavy compared to other offerings, and somewhat hot, toasty and a bit sweaty, plus I like to avoid leather products full stop, so I avoid them.
I'd guess its partly a marketing thing as having gore-tex sounds better to the layman than not having it?
Post edited at 10:26
In reply to LastBoyScout:
A short while ago, I bought an Arcteryx Alpha SV jacket - as a lifelong Mountain Equipment user, it was as much to see if it justifies the £600 price tag, as anything else
It's undoubtedly a seriously good piece of kit, and although it hasn't really been used in anger yet - this winter in the alps will rectify that - it certainly looks like its bombproof and should last a long time.
However, is it twice as good, and will it last twice as long, as a £300 equivalent from Mountain Equipment, Rab, Mountain Hardware etc, I'm not sure?
I'm more inclined to think that it's a very good £300 jacket, with a £300 logo on it.
The world of climbing is not immune to the power of brands and designer labels.
> Unless unavoidable, I don't buy anything unless it's in the sale - I'm pretty much kitted out in end of season/closing down sale/outlet/staff discount stuff
> I used to work in a gear shop and we had loads of DofE, Scouts, Guides and World Challenge kids in, often on a budget.
> I used to advise that there were 5 things you shouldn't scrimp on, or, at least, buy the best you can afford (in no particular order):
> 1 - boots and socks - nothing worse than sore feet.
> 2 - waterproofs - need to stay dry
> 3 - sleeping bag - lighter to carry, less bulky and warmer.
> 4 - rucksack - needs to be comfortable
> 5 - fleece (debatable) - a good one will keep you warm and comfy - a bad one will have seams that rub under rucksack straps. I had a fleece once that was a promotional company-branded one - it seemed to be built with a large body, one medium sleeve and one small sleeve!
> Pretty much anything else can be had on a budget - those days, I used to send kids to C&A and Millets, these days it'll be Millets, Decathlon and TK Maxx. My wife swears by M&S thermals and I've been very impressed with some Decathlon trousers, but find their sizes and cut don't often suit me.
> The other side of the argument is "buy cheap, buy twice" and there's an element of that - I've got some bits of gear that have had all sorts of abuse for years and aren't showing any signs of falling apart. They were an expensive initial outlay, but the "pence per mile" is extremely low. In a couple of cases, I wish they would wear out, so I can buy some different colours!
A short while ago, I bought an Arcteryx Alpha SV jacket - as a lifelong Mountain Equipment user, it was as much to see if it justifies the £600 price tag, as anything else
It's undoubtedly a seriously good piece of kit, and although it hasn't really been used in anger yet - this winter in the alps will rectify that - it certainly looks like its bombproof and should last a long time.
However, is it twice as good, and will it last twice as long, as a £300 equivalent from Mountain Equipment, Rab, Mountain Hardware etc, I'm not sure?
I'm more inclined to think that it's a very good £300 jacket, with a £300 logo on it.
The world of climbing is not immune to the power of brands and designer labels.
Post edited at 10:41
3
In reply to ianstevens:
Probably. It get's worse if you want all leather boots with a leather lining - I think you're bascially reduced to Meindl Borneo and a few from Altberg.
If you want a full mountain boot with bales from and back, I don't think you can any more - Crispi Montagne were the last I knew of and they don't make those any more. My current walking boots have got a worn out inner. My last big boots had a worn out inner. My old walking boots (circa 1978) got thrown out this summer when the leather finally cracked where it bent over my big toes. The leather inner was fine, and they didn't leak.
Probably. It get's worse if you want all leather boots with a leather lining - I think you're bascially reduced to Meindl Borneo and a few from Altberg.
If you want a full mountain boot with bales from and back, I don't think you can any more - Crispi Montagne were the last I knew of and they don't make those any more. My current walking boots have got a worn out inner. My last big boots had a worn out inner. My old walking boots (circa 1978) got thrown out this summer when the leather finally cracked where it bent over my big toes. The leather inner was fine, and they didn't leak.
4
In reply to zimpara:
I've never skipped on trousers and I've never spent £100 pounds on a pair either.
> Where is it best to skimp on gear? Trousers? Are £100 trousers worth it?
I've never skipped on trousers and I've never spent £100 pounds on a pair either.
In reply to jkarran:
I've noticed this more when walking in the Lakes than when climbing, but I do keep wondering why all these people have spent so much money on expensive gear to go for a little bumpy walk in the sunshine.
> I've never been held back by my old, used, unfashionable, cobbled together, and never, ever 'high-end' gear.
I've noticed this more when walking in the Lakes than when climbing, but I do keep wondering why all these people have spent so much money on expensive gear to go for a little bumpy walk in the sunshine.
5
In reply to GrahamD:
I know. Trust me, it's going to have to seriously deliver the goods with bells on this winter
> Bloody hell ! £600 for an anorak ?
I know. Trust me, it's going to have to seriously deliver the goods with bells on this winter
1
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Bit of an old fashioned perspective on a brand there, Patagonia is comparatively priced to a number of UK clothing companies while being more ethically sound and more environmentally friendly. On top of that they are brilliant to deal with and would rather repair your 10 year old fleece for free rather than see it go in a landfill and you buy another one.
Bit of an old fashioned perspective on a brand there, Patagonia is comparatively priced to a number of UK clothing companies while being more ethically sound and more environmentally friendly. On top of that they are brilliant to deal with and would rather repair your 10 year old fleece for free rather than see it go in a landfill and you buy another one.
Post edited at 19:01
4
In reply to Goucho:
one thing that does distinguish that particular arcteryx jacket is that it's made in Canada so it certainly costs more to produce. I suspect that make more profit 9n some of the cheaper jackets
the me equivalent changbang is £450.
high pricing is part of being the best...
one thing that does distinguish that particular arcteryx jacket is that it's made in Canada so it certainly costs more to produce. I suspect that make more profit 9n some of the cheaper jackets
the me equivalent changbang is £450.
high pricing is part of being the best...
In reply to zimpara:
Martin Moran said in 'Scotland's Winter Mountains' that one should spare no expense investing in a top quality shell, even if one is forced to wear a set of patched up rags underneath.
Written in the days of course when a multi layer/ hard shell system was de rigeur.
Martin Moran said in 'Scotland's Winter Mountains' that one should spare no expense investing in a top quality shell, even if one is forced to wear a set of patched up rags underneath.
Written in the days of course when a multi layer/ hard shell system was de rigeur.
Post edited at 22:35
In reply to zimpara:
Depends what you're doing.
General crag climbing where you're not pushing the grade - who cares.
Pushing the grade on rock, particularly well into the E grades - lighten up the rack (not just lighter gear but a rack which is specific to the route you're doing, plus avoid taking too much gear). Nuts, cams and quickdraws which feel nice to use also make a difference, at least psychologically. Still wouldn't spend £100 on trousers though, not least because they will need replacing soon enough with heavy use. Slightly stretchy Craghoppers for less than half that price are my standard and get replaced about once a year once the rips and worn out areas get out of hand.
Winter and Alpine - good quality clothing makes a big difference to your enjoyment of the day(s) and a lighter rack pays dividends (again, avoid taking too much, though of course sometimes you have to take loads of gear in winter.
Depends what you're doing.
General crag climbing where you're not pushing the grade - who cares.
Pushing the grade on rock, particularly well into the E grades - lighten up the rack (not just lighter gear but a rack which is specific to the route you're doing, plus avoid taking too much gear). Nuts, cams and quickdraws which feel nice to use also make a difference, at least psychologically. Still wouldn't spend £100 on trousers though, not least because they will need replacing soon enough with heavy use. Slightly stretchy Craghoppers for less than half that price are my standard and get replaced about once a year once the rips and worn out areas get out of hand.
Winter and Alpine - good quality clothing makes a big difference to your enjoyment of the day(s) and a lighter rack pays dividends (again, avoid taking too much, though of course sometimes you have to take loads of gear in winter.
1
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Yeah - Steve Bancroft seemed to manage OK
https://es.pinterest.com/pin/292311832035488021/
> I skimped on climbing jeans once. Never again.
> I thought I could just buy any old jeans and use them for climbing, how wrong can a man be? My onsight dropped from font 5 straight down to 4+ I was devastated.
Yeah - Steve Bancroft seemed to manage OK
https://es.pinterest.com/pin/292311832035488021/
Post edited at 10:23
1
In reply to LG-Mark:
Imagine what he would have climbed if he had a pair of arctyrx ' climbing pant ' though
Imagine what he would have climbed if he had a pair of arctyrx ' climbing pant ' though
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