UKC

I'm am thinking about my first independent outdoor trip and want it to initially be confidence inspiring and basic skill affirming. Having just watched two 70 plus year old women climbing again on a BMC video climbing Middlefell Buttress in The Lake District I thought that this would be a good place to start.
The intention is to take my regular climbing buddy and two other friends who have even less experience but are keen to along as well. These latter 2 may be cut from the equation based on advice.

Some facts to consider:
I have been climbing indoors for a couple of years.
Have been climbing outdoors only 3 times. Once with an instructor, once a failed trip to the Peaks in March with my family (never again), and once at Bowles Rock which is a top rope only deal. The poor climb rate is all thanks to living in Essex and starting climbing later in life than many.
So the questions are these: Is this a good start point and can you add a few routes gradually moving up the grades to a level of increased difficulty not going beyond HVS? Do I need to go out a bit more with the clubs before or instructors before going out independently? I am sure I will get comments ranging from, "stop being a pussy and get out there" to "whoa there Lesley what are you doing?" but any constructive advice would be welcomed. Tfr.

In reply to Roobag:

It's old-fashioned advice, but if you're starting with a group of four including couple of folk with virtually no previous experience, I'd suggest the ideal place would be a mountain or a crag with a range of easy routes so that you can suss out whether your novices are happy on steep ground, and introduce them to the necessary technical stuff; you don't want to put them off for life, and you don't want to get into complex and frightening lowering-off scenarios. if you were in Scotland I'd recommend the Buachaille where you have great easy 'starter' routes like Curved Ridge and North Buttress but could advance rapidly if everybody's happy on to Agag's and similar steep and airy VDiffs and Severes. But if you're just developing you own outdoor skills you may find that sufficiently engrossing without having to shepherd two novices.

In reply to Roobag:

I'd suggest starting out a single pitch crag, as the rope work is many times less complicated. Taking two people with "less experience" on a multi pitch route is something I'd leave until you are really confident at building belays and once the rope management has become second nature to you.

I wont try to suggest a venue, there are many that fit the bill, even in the south.

Enjoy.

In reply to Roobag:

What gear do you have?

In reply to Roobag:
More old fashioned advice. I would also suggest single pitch climbs to start with, especially if the party has inexperienced members. Multi pitch climbing involves more complex route finding, protection placing, belaying etc. I have to agree with chris_r on that point.

Unfortunately living in Essex will probably mean long trips to the crags. Not climbed there, but Harrisons Rocks might be nearer for you, even if it is mainly top roping.

As an example Stanage Edge in the Peak, where I started climbing, has 4 miles of single pitch climbing from diff to Extreme and gives plenty of scope. Just check the weather if going this time of year though.

Have fun.

In reply to Roobag:

Middlefell Buttress is an easy and suitable first multipitch route for a less experienced leader as the climbing is straightforward (but very polished!) and the stances very large, to the point where it can essentially be done as three single pitches. This makes group management much easier. It has nice views and a mountain feel which should make it fun as well. It's often used as an approach route to Gimmer crag, so if you did it on a weekend day with good weather there would be likely to be other, more experienced climbers nearby if you ran into major difficulties.

The question therefore is really whether you feel like you have the experience to safely lead climb on trad gear and set up solid anchors, and whether you have the appropriate equipment? MFB is frequently soloed without gear but that's unlikely to be how you want to start off as a new outdoor climber. Most people start their trad climbing on single pitch venues: are you looking for suggestions of mountain multipitch? I think most people would recommend holding off on those until you're experienced at single pitching, though MFB is possibly an exception due to the extremely large ledges between each pitch. Climbing with an instructor once and one outdoor toproping session is unlikely to have provided you with the skills required for committing mountain routes, particularly regarding what to do if something goes wrong. For example, do you know how to set up a basic assisted or Z pulley system?

In reply to Roobag:

I would join a local club. My club runs an event in the spring for folk like yourself - can belay competently indoors, not much experience outside and fancy giving it a go. If clubs don't appeal then I would just go with your regular climbing partner - adding 2 total novices will be an additional stress you definitely don't need. Multi pitch at the lowest levels - say up to V-Diff is not totally beyond you as generally the belay ledges are big, but given you're in Essex you'll be driving past a lot of single pitch to get there. Realistically your best bet would be the southern Peak for example Harborough or Brassington (limestone) or Birchen / Gardoms edge (grit)
A final swerve ball to throw at you would be sport climbing - again there is some in the Southern Peak but you could try Portland.

In reply to Roobag:

Hi Roobag,

As somebody has mentioned already, do you already know how to place gear and build belays? Traditionally, people would start off trad climbing by seconding more experienced climbing partners or by going along on club trips, they would pick up gear placements and ropework by watching what the leader did. This can unfortunately be a slow process, that can lead to bad habits in the long run.

A weekend course with a Mountaineering Instructor would leave you with the skills to go out and climb independently, knowing that you're placing gear correctly and that your rope work is safe.

Have a look at the Learn to Lead course on my website, and get in touch if you have any questions!

www.mikenolanmountaineering.co.uk

Cheers,
Mike

In reply to Roobag:

It depends what skills you have in terms of rope work, setting up belays, gear placements and general management on route. Sounds like you've next to no experience at this sort of thing so unless you've practiced it separately I'd say taking two total novices with you as well is only going to make things even worse.

Things that'll be a faff, even for more experienced climbers are for example are getting 4 people up on a belay ledge, getting them all clipped into some anchors safely, swapping all the gear over and then swapping leaders to do the next pitch without just getting in a total tangled mess and spending an hour on each pitch. Do you have a pair of half ropes or are you going to do it on a single, will your novices be okay with belaying with twin ropes or dismantling the lower belay and tying onto a bite in the rope etc? Plenty of scope for epics if you ask me, and this all assumes you have no difficulties with the actual climbing, now fair enough middle fell is basically a scramble but what if one of your novices gets stuck or freaks out, are you going to be able to sort that out?

If I were you I'd either go somewhere single pitch where you can lead / top rope one at a time with easy to set up belays and a quick walk off. That way you can build up the experiences and get slick with the rope work etc before taking people out to mountain crags. Or if you are set on going to middle fell buttress, maybe just the two of you go first, that way you've only got yourselves to worry about which is probably enough to be going on with.

In reply to Roobag:

Middlefell Buttress is a great route, but the crux pitch is very polished, and it's quite a lot for a novice to undertake, especially with a party of four. If any of you run into trouble you would be faced with trying to get them all off a big multi-pitch route, high up on a mountain crag. I agree with the suggestion that you should cut your outdoor teeth on some single pitch routes, the Peak District would be ideal.

I used to live in Essex so I know how difficult it can be to get away to the hills from there. I'd strongly recommend joining a club, not only so you can tap into their experience but also to share transport for the long drives to the hills.

In reply to Howard J:


I would disagree with that. The worst polish on Middlefell is at the bottom and its easy to give someone a snug rope to get up that. I'd have said it was an ideal objective being both technically ammenable and in an inspring location.

In reply to Roobag:

I think its easy to overanalyse. Once you have a feeling for gear placement and your own ability then why not get out and explore ? I'd agree with joining a club, though. Great way to meet people.

In reply to Roobag:
I started climbing pre-climbing walls following a weekend introductory course. I then joined a local club and climbed with experienced people who taught me the right way to do things.

Things are easier now, but in some ways also more difficult. Starting in a climbing wall will give you a basic skill set, but most people find the transition to outdoors quiet challenging. On the upside there are lots of instructors now running Indoor to Outdoor climbing courses which will help smooth the transition.

The advice I give to people in your position is -

1. Join an active local climbing club. It will give you access to experienced climbers to get advice and provide climbing partners, and also climbing trips with supportive people around.
2. Buy a good climbing book, e.g. Libby Peter's Rock Climbing. It will provide an invaluable reference for the future, e.g. building belays, etc.
3. Get out as often as possible and on different rock types, starting on single pitch climbs so if things go wrong its easy to get out of trouble. The Peak District is a good choice.
4. Go on a course next summer, somewhere like PYB, but your local club may organise something, to develop your skills, e.g. multi-pitch leading.

Hope this helps

Steve

In reply to Roobag:

Not sure I would bother with Harrisons if you want to lead, the style can be quite athletic with a lot of setting up top ropes. Suggest you go somewhere like Stanage where you can lead, but start mainly on Diff & VDiff until you are happy with placing gear and building belays. You could use an instructor but if you are a competent climber you can probably solo those grades so it might give you some practical experience (I assume you know a techniques from books or your previous instructor, right?)
That was how I started. But then, as the others suggest, I found a 'mentor' and climbed with him for a couple of years and that's where I really got to know what I was doing. That was invaluable.

In reply to Roobag:

Would respectfully suggest:

Cut the group of four down to two. All your attention is going to be on stuff you're learning. You won't have 'mental space' to monitor two others.

Don't go on mountain crags - especially in winter, with little daylight.

Don't go on multipitch.

Don't go on trad limestone (likely to be scary/insecure because of polish).

Would go on sport routes first - and only if you're certain you can thread belays. (If you don't know, you must learn.) Would start somewhere like The Bower on Portland, totally unthreatening.

Would go away for weekend trips with your climbing buddy - to maximise the 'investment' of travel time.

If you've had say three OK sport climbing trips, I'd then start trad - at Stanage Popular, on easy cracks, filled with gear. Again, weekend trips.

Your early days outdoors will be the most dangerous times in your climbing life. Be careful! Don't ever rush at belays.

Obvious variables are sport/trad, single pitch/multipitch, outcrop/mountain. Start with sport/single pitch/outcrop and work up (slowly and carefully) to trad/multipitch/mountain.

Good luck. Let us know how you get on!

Mick

In reply to Roobag:

I'm biased as a climbing instructor, but I'm a big fan of climbing courses. (Me: http://www.jbmountainskills.co.uk or any qualified instructor: http://ami.org.uk )

If you're happy you've already got enough skills though, head out to a low stress single pitch crag, when the weather is friendly. Hard to do well when it's a battle to even stay warm and dry. I'd really recommend sticking to Diffs and V Diffs to consolidate the tech skills side of things, once those are dialled you can start to push on.

Whatever you do, have fun, it's an exciting time with a world full of adventure out there for you!

In reply to Roobag:

If don't have any experience I'd go for sports first, it's a lot safer to have bolts. There will be a lot going on including not knowing how to climb real rock and being scared so it's best to take one step at a time.

However, if you have someone experienced to take you out on Trad then do a bunch of seconds until you feel confident and fancy having a go leading an easy route. Most people start at D/VD until they can place gear and handle the ropes well and then progress slowly up the grades.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I'm not sure there's that strong a case for starting on sport then "progressing" to trad - what would you really learn from a few trips to Portland that would actually make you safer when you started getting onto gritstone Diffs and V Diffs?

Generally fair comments otherwise though. Although a few of them I'd qualify with "probably" and "not knowing you" - eg someone generally robust who's done plenty of scrambling but is just getting into roped climbing could well be fine starting out on easier mountain routes.

In reply to Roobag:

I concur with the above comments about starting on single pitch with your regular climbing partner. Nothing else to add there. But good to have a wishlist that includes multi-pitch mountain routes!

It's great that you have been inspired to tackle Middlefell Buttress by watching the lovely video of 2 older women on the route. But it's easy to be lulled into thinking "If those two 'old ladies' can climb it, it must be easy".

They make it look easy, because they're relaxed and enjoying themselves on a favourite route. It's worth bearing in mind though that the two women in the film, Dorothy and Judith, have getting on for a century of trad climbing experience between them. So they may not be as fit as they were in their youth, but they know their way around the mountains, they can set up a belay with their eyes closed and would be able to look after themselves and each other if anything went wrong.

Just sayin'

In reply to Roobag:

By the way, I'd also agree that joining a club or otherwise getting out with more experienced climbers is a good thing to do if at all possible. You'll probably learn a lot, and not just essential safety stuff but also the sort of skills and knowledge that'll help you to get more interesting stuff done.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Don't want to be arguing with you but just to clarify:


The key word is 'safer' (your word). And yes, you might not learn anything to make you safer. But my reasoning is thus:

The OP has barely climbed outside. She's climbed indoors for 'a couple of years'. Indoors the holds are red or green or blue. Outdoors the holds are... where exactly? Often they're not obvious - especially smears on limestone. Sometimes they're hidden (e.g. the jug in the top groove on Vector). If she's going well on F4 and maybe the odd F5, it builds confidence and means there are grades in reserve for Diff/V Diff/Severe.



Agree (though not with a party of four). But has she done plenty of scrambling? No mention of it in the OP, so I won't assume it.

What is mentioned is... 'to a level of increased difficulty not going beyond HVS?' Possibly the OP does not know that most members of these august forums climb no harder then F6a and Hard Severe. HVS ain't just F5 at the wall but taken outdoors. It's a different game and when the dice turn against you - as every so often they do, it's a deadly game.

Mick

In reply to GrahamD:

I don't doubt you're right. It's more than 10 years since I last did it, and it is the crux pitch which sticks in my mind. However that doesn't alter that in my opinion it is a big and serious undertaking for a complete outdoor novice, notwithstanding its location or being technically amenable.

I think it is important that the OP consolidates outdoor skills, especially gear placement and route finding, at low grades before trying to push the grade. Climbing outdoors is a very different game from a climbing wall, and most novices over-estimate how their technical climbing ability indoors will transfer to the crags. Build it up slowly and gain confidence.

In reply to Howard J:

Middlefell is low grade, though, so it can't really constitute pushing the grade. And it really isn't a big undertaking as its a series of escapable single pitches 5 minutes from the back door of the pub. If you can get the first 2 metres up it you can climb it and if not, retreat to the pub.

I think its a generational thing. I would probably have climbed on Middlefell Butress before getting on a climbing wall.

In reply to GrahamD:

I agree. Sport climbing in the UK is not that good whereas the trad climbing is excellent so it offers a better future for beginners i.e. more routes. I also think that climbing indoors can breed bad habits and techniques that do not necessarily transfer across the two disciplines very well.

Al

In reply to Mick Ward:



I wouldn't expect someone to start climbing outdoors on Vector, though! More like short, straightforward, jug-infested mods and diffs, which I'd expect to be fine for a reasonably well-prepared beginner. (Although I'd still recommend finding someone more experienced to get out with if possible...)


No, sure, that's why I said that I'd qualify your statements a bit rather than ditch them entirely.

In reply to Roobag:

this year we've started Trad, and were in a similar situation as you - need experience, need confidence. We took the 2 day intro to Trad course at Plas Y Brenin, and it did wonders for our confidence and ability. Not just the climbing, but the confidence to place gear, and to set up a safe belay as well. From there we progressed to Stanage Plantation on our own (2 of us). We found some Mods at Away From It All ( Stanage Plantation) - they're 8m single pitch and perfect for practising on. we set up a top rope initially to practice set ups and the route itself, and then took the plunge and lead the routes. We didn't want to rush into trad and put ourselves off and have to sell lots of gear that we'd never use.

Even if you practice on top ropes, it's invaluable to learning outside. Bowles is a great crag but can be off putting to new starters; sandstone slapping for a hold is actually a thing, it seems

Stanage is a 3 hour drive away from central Essex, so very doable.

In reply to Roobag:



Don't fall into the trap of assuming that you can do something just because you've seen a video of two 70 year old women doing it

I'd suggest starting with a day or two of single pitch climbing, start out with a few really good quality diffs or vdiffs and work your way up the grades.

In reply to all:
Thanks for the useful advice everyone. I am slightly surprised by the almost unanimous word of warning but I will definitely take the warning. I would say I am far from a confident climber atm and would not want to scare myself or anyone else off or worse.
The revised plan is to climb with Colchester club and gain some solid skills then ask others opinion on whether I should be let loose after a few outings.
In reply to: Mick Ward
FYI I am a 37 year old male but I can understand the confusion, having said I was inspired by but not aspire to be, an old lady.
Cheers all
Ben

In reply to Roobag:

Go somewhere with a 6-15m crag, easy access, and lots of low grade routes. Don't make yourself responsible for anyone else - i.e. don't take novices until you're definitely climbing safely. Go with friends who are equal or more experienced at trad. Start up the 'walk in the park' routes that you're unlikely to fall off - e.g. mods and diffs. Let the climbing be easy and concentrate on good gear and rope work till you're confident. Try to find someone (e.g. a trad-climbing friend) who can assess your placements and tell you off for not extending runners enough. And don't think one or two Severes means you're ready for VS, or one or two VSs means you're ready for HVS, as rock, protection and difficulties vary - sometimes dramatically and indoor abilities only translate very loosely into outdoor climbing.

Taking novices out shouldn't be something you do lightly, as you have to be completely responsible for their safety. When you do, it is probably best to go somewhere single pitch where you can talk to them at the bottom from the top. It's generally also more pleasant if you make sure you're not going to fall off, e.g. by climbing well within your limits.

Multipitch climbing with a novice is really committing. Because if they can't get up something you have to make careful decisions about how to get them and yourself back down. It's easy to overestimate their abilities, especially if 'interesting' techniques are required, e.g. bridging, crack or chimney climbing, or moving up smeary slabs, etc. I've ended up soloing two pitches because of having to lower my second off; and I've also had situations where there were tears... Both things to avoid, believe me! You will also want to be confident in abseiling, unless you want to leave gear behind, as novices are not always able to clean odd or well-lodged placements... Sometimes novices really struggle with approaches and descents, too - something to careful of on Lakes multipitch routes! E.g. Raven Crag, nextdoor to Middlefell Buttress, has some difficult to find and precarious descent paths - or... abseiling... which is always "fun" with novices... (again... tears and curses and people and ropes getting stuck in odd places... avoid, avoid...!)

In reply to Roobag:
jezb1's advice is excellent (as you'd expect), especially the last sentence:
Quote: If you're happy you've already got enough skills though, head out to a low stress single pitch crag, when the weather is friendly. Hard to do well when it's a battle to even stay warm and dry. I'd really recommend sticking to Diffs and V Diffs to consolidate the tech skills side of things, once those are dialled you can start to push on.

My two penn'orth - nobody's suggested it yet (I think) but if you can get to the Peak District you can't do much better than this Windgather Rocks. Most of the routes there are confidence building. My only caveat would be - before setting off on a route go to the top and make sure you can make a safe belay above the route, as there are some where that is difficult.

PS as for your idea of Middlefell Buttress - if, as I suspect from your location, you're not very mountain savvy the descent requires some experience - either an abseil requiring two 50m ropes or an exposed and steep scramble on some not very appealing slopes.

In reply to Roobag:


Me too.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

"PS as for your idea of Middlefell Buttress - if, as I suspect from your location, you're not very mountain savvy the descent requires some experience - either an abseil requiring two 50m ropes or an exposed and steep scramble on some not very appealing slopes."

Or you could continue up the hill until you hit the footpath and descend using that, or continue round the top and make a day of it by including some summits!

In reply to ChrisH89:



I have to admit the truth of this, but was trying to be concise.