UKC

Hi,

I'm sure this has been done to death, but who here carries an avalanche transceiver when out winter climbing? If not why not? Simply cost?

Cheers for the info!

Ross

In reply to ROSP:

It certainly has been done before but it doesn't do any harm to revisit.

I don't carry one for three reasons:

The extra weight.
The kind of climbing I do makes them less likely to be of use.
I think that the risks are better managed in other ways.

In reply to ROSP:

No! Because,
Extra weight and space.
Transceivers are only good if everyone has one, as climbing is usually done in pairs and both get avalanched then its pointless, would only serve for rescue services to find your body quicker!
Unlike skiers in the Alps and America, around 70% of avalanche deaths in Scotland are from trauma not burial, so again would only serves to find my body quicker.
Would rather spend that cost on an avalanche refresher course at the beginning of the winter and avoid getting avalanched in the first place!!!

In reply to ROSP:

99% of the time. Weight and cost are not a factor.

100% of all rescue team members will carry them, so will all centre staff from the Lodge and PYB, plus many freelancers, snow patrols etc... So even if you are alone or in a pair where only one of you wears it, there is a very good chance that there will be people on scene relatively(1-3hrs) quickly able to search.

In reply to summo:



... most skiers.

In reply to ROSP:

I sometimes carry one but not all that often for similar reasons to those above. But surely you'd decide whether to use one based on the snow & weather conditions and your route choice rather than the views of people on an internet forum?

In reply to summo:
>So even if you are alone or in a pair where only one of you wears it, there is a very good chance that there will be people on scene relatively(1-3hrs) quickly able to search.

The stats are quite clear on the fact that that is far far too late in the overwhelming majority of burials.

In reply to summo:


And yet weight is continually cited as a reason for not carrying them, by experienced climbers, who understand the risks and potential benefits of carrying one. Believe me, an extra kiloish (which is what shovel probe and transceiver weigh, there being very little point in just carrying a transceiver) on a hard pitch is most definitely an issue.

In reply to DaveHK:


yes, I'm fully aware of the stats, but if just one other person in the corrie is wearing one, then I would be well within the highest probability of survival. I just tend to stack the odds in my favour. I don't plan to fall, but I still put decent gear in whilst leading, in winter some of it is more marginal but we still put it in, as it increase our odds of survival should something beyond our control happen.

In reply to DaveHK:


you have an axe, some folk carry deadmen... a good search will narrow down the location pretty tight. You can then recruit anyone else around you to also dig etc.. it gives a specific location for helping arriving from afar. Even if there were 20 people in the corrie, they would be useless without one person having a transceiver to give an indication where to dig.

In reply to summo:


Sorry Summo, but you're kidding yourself if you think there's any realistic chance of someone passing by with the kit saving you. Also, if you're fully aware of the stats you'll know that 20 mins is the oft quoted time window. 1-3 hours is useless and entirely random anyway unless you only climb in the Norries.

As for digging someone out with axes and Deadmen, no chance unless they're reet near the top. You need the full kit or its practically useless.

In reply to summo:


Not without a probe it won't. You could spend an hour digging 50cm away and not find them.

In reply to DaveHK:


but even after 1-3hrs, it's not zero chance, granted it's low, but it is absolute zero without a transceiver. As I said I'm stacking what odds there are in my favour. I'm not suggesting it's even close to a guarantee of survival, all the skills to avoid being in one in the first place will work towards that.


Yes, the snow is hard, can set like concrete when it stops flowing, it's slow but not impossible. In many places there are no shortage of winter skills groups or walkers, all carry all the gear. There will be people in winter wearing transceivers all over the gorms, Meggie, the ben, aonach mor, glencoe etc.. so it's not just limited to sneachda.

Each to their own, it's their own lives and their choice. I was just sharing my rational. I know for certain that I won't die because I carried 300 or 400grams extra.

In reply to ROSP:

Dont need them in Scotland. The avalanches arent big enough to do any damage. Mountains are too small.

In reply to DaveHK:


I beg to differ, although the deeper they are, the greater chance they are off to the side a little etc... But you can get to a metre square and say start digging here. Whilst the transceiver is obviously scanning for another transceiver located on their chest, even if you are initially digging off the mark by 50cm, there is a chance you'll find a limb, see some clothing, gear trailing from a harness, wrecked clothing hanging off them, a bit of rope etc.. It's all about narrowing down and refining. Dig down your 50cm, then scan again, you many have to start digging down diagonally a little etc.. then repeat. I've buried many rucksacks training people, but never had to replace one and never ever used a probe to locate them.

Ill leave it now, as I said early it's everyone own choice.

In reply to mrbird:


what about Sussex?

In reply to summo:


Yes but people should base that choice on the actual chances of it being of benefit, not blind faith that it might make a difference.

In reply to summo:

Or North Yorkshire!

In reply to mrbird:

Are you mental? That's up there with the most reckless things I've heard on this forum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9964171/Body-of-missing-skier-found-in-Glen...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/17/climbers-die-in-scotlands-gle...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Buachaille_Etive_M%C3%B2r_avalanche
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/avalanche-in-cairngorms
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/555570/British-Climber-Death-Scottish-Aval...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-highlands-avalanche-victim-na...
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-avalanche-dead-climbers-named...

In reply to ROSP:

Ignoring mrbird's obvious trolling above...

I will carry transceiver, probe and shovel if winter walking. The weight issue is less of an issue to me then. Being part of a rescue team, I feel a definite sense of moral obligation and best practice to be wearing when out personal walking.

Winter climbing, I will carry transceiver but generally not probe and shovel. As Dave Kerr mentions, weight, especially on harder routes is a consideration. Avoidance, of course, is the best policy.

In reply to gavmac:

For ski touring + off piste skiing I always carry transceiver, probe and shovel whether in Scotland or abroad. I don't ski alone and the folks I ski with also carry the kit.

For winter climbing / walking I don't and generally opt to avoid risky terrain as much as possible. Realistically, it needs everyone else to be carrying the kit to be any use.

In reply to ROSP:

If you are going into likely avalanche aspect in Scottish winter you are doing something wrong. Before you go out you'll be aware of the Sais report, looked up Sais blogs to get an idea of the history and snow pack and kept an eye on the prevailing winds add precipitation to know where snow has been deposited. You then choose the aspect you want too climb on based on that. If after that, you feel unhappy with your slope you dig a trial pit to see how it matches the snow profiles you've seen and look for a weak layer. As you get close to the top, especially on gullies, you look out for windslab. At each stage, if you are unhappy, you try elsewhere. You shouldn't be in avalanche terrain in Scottish winter, hence no trancievers.

Skiing is different, you are looking for soft snow and you may be above, so it's harder to be safe.

In reply to James Jackson:


In the UK? I think not.

In reply to James Jackson:

Don't bite.......

In reply to Dave Perry:

Or the Chew Valley!

In reply to jonnie3430:


You also cover ground very quickly, as well as crossing multiple aspects, therefore increasing the likelihood of entering into a potential avalanche zone. When walking, you have a lot more time to assess the slope which you are on/the slope/terrain ahead/above/below etc.

I'm still undecided about taking "the holy trinity" out climbing. It seems ,like a no-brainer but it weighs a lot and having tried to dig with an axe in avalanche debris, I can confirm it's next to useless, i imagine a deadman in no better.

In reply to jonnie3430:

It's clear we have the best information we've ever had in terms of making educated routes choices - blogs, SAIS, forecasting etc.

And yet, every year, experienced and talented mountaineers are involved in avalanches in Scotland. We're human and we make bad calls. That's not a judgement on those involved, just a reflection on the reality of human fallibility.

So, playing devils advocate, why not A) give yourself the best chance of being rescued B) Make it as easy and painless for MRT and ultimately family, in retrieving you if the worst case happens.

In reply to Andy Say:


I would say he means off-piste/touring (i.e. the kind of people who might be near climbers), in which case I think he's right*.

(Taken from the very small sample that is the people i know who ski/tour in Scotland)

In reply to galpinos:

Yep that was what I was meaning. Same sample size for me, but everybody I know who skis off-piste / ski tours in Scotland carries a transceiver, shovel and probe. But that is self-selecting; I wouldn't go out with people who didn't.

In reply to ROSP:
I don't work in the winter months, ski/climb most days, 80 % ski. I've been avalanched twice, lucky to survive the first in Glencoe, being carried down 2-300 metres in 1984, climbing at the time, slab avalanche, partially buried, only head out, not not able to dig myself out. Dug out by partner.
Second time was in Italy 4 years ago, small avalanche, I set it off, knocked off my feet but remained on surface.

I carry a transceiver all the time abroad, I rarely ski on the piste. I carry one in Scotland if others have one, if I'm on my own I don't bother, or if others don't have one I don't bother either. Avoidance is the best plan, I also think transceivers can make you a little more prone to risk taking, so I try to counter that.
Never carry one for climbing.
I think slab avalanche is the greatest danger in Scotland, but not much of an expert.

In reply to gavmac:

So the message needs to be clear and emphasised every year. That message is do the research before you go out, choose the right routes and make sure the conditions on the ground match the ones you are expecting. I don't think diluting that message with trancievers, probes and shovel chat is sensible, nor the chat about airbags and those breathing things that will follow.

In reply to ROSP:

Wait, people don't carry those every time? I wouldn't go with someone who didn't carry one and know how to use one in the winter time. If you are alone, then I get it, because you'd be dead either way.

Hanging your hopes on a rescue party is both selfish and naive, in my opinion.

In reply to jonnie3430:

Agree that the message needs to be clear and emphasised every year.

I'm not so sure that message is diluted by discussing the validity/options offered by transceiver, shovel and probe. Like all these tools, personal rescue beacons for example, they are worthy of consideration. Of course, people are free to make the choice but it's good to be challenged on why we do/don't make use them.

In reply to ROSP:

Just playing. I've got a plb (personal locator beacon). You crack that whenever you need to and it sends your coordinates to SAR all round who will hopefully scoop up whatever is left of me and take me to hospital or incinerator respectively.

Cheers

In reply to Fiona Reid:



Are you saying that you take less care to avoid risky terrain while skiing? If so, why?

In reply to Jim 1003:


Correct!

In reply to TheFasting:


No. They don't. In the Scottish hills and mountains in winter the majority do not carry them.

You are free to choose your companions in your own way

In reply to Andy Say:

For UK winter climbers I think the biggest danger is slab avalanche in gullies. Not usual for cornice collapse to be the trigger either.

In reply to ROSP:

I'm a wee bit out of touch these days but I do recall that after their couple of incidents a few years back Glenmore Lodge introduced a Transceiver, Shovel and Probe policy for staff and students. This was a 'research project'. My qualms at the time were that you can only really gauge the effectiveness of such kit in saving lives if you are getting avalanched frequently!
At the same time they did some perceptual research on the factors that might encourage people into areas where there was a potential avalanche risk. Factors such as peer pressure, fixation on objective and observation of others all came into play. But, if I remember correctly, they also identified the 'I've got my TSP, it'll be OK' as a potential factor in increased risk taking.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Which of course is place less experienced climbers are likely to find themselves.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

For climbers, aye. But Slab avalanche on open slopes - often across descent routes - have maybe accounted for more fatalities. A couple of lads from Derby were hit walking up to the CIC!

In reply to Robert Durran:


No, no, not at all but when skiing (certainly on the downhills) you tend to cover terrain faster thus there may be more likelihood of passing through a potentially dodgy section.

When skiing, you also tend to be looking for deep snow etc which generally you avoid if walking/climbing as it's hard work!

Also when skiing you don't always skin up the same slope as you descend etc - I do realise the same applies to walking + climbing too but I guess the nature of skiing means that you usually try to descend snowy terrain rather than heather and rock hopping.

In reply to ROSP:

Sometimes....

I do if I'm in an area where I think there's a reasonable chance of other people having them (Northern Corries, Aonach Mor) and the conditions and forecast suggest that there could be avalanches.

The reasons for this are as much about being able to assist someone else in an avalanche, as I clearly don't expect to get caught in one myself. Obvs I also always carry probe and shovel if I am carrying a transceiver.

The Glenmore Lodge pilot scheme ended last season. Not sure what they plan to do for the coming one.

In reply to Snoweider:


Did they come to any conclusions or publish anything about their decision?

In reply to galpinos:

I saw some preliminary conclusions (that were not very conclusive) published in the MT mag in the spring. I have to confess that subsequent issues are still sitting in my "to read" pile so its possible that more info has since been released!?

In reply to Snoweider:


Same here - although I always carry one rather than make it location-dependent. It's amazing where you find fellow mountain-goers stomping around in any given remote place! My justification for carrying when alone is to be able to assist anybody in the event that I were to witness an incident and to be assisted were I to have an incident and passers-by were around.

We all know that the likelihood of the planets aligning like that is rare, but for skiing the 'extra' (if ones counts it as that) weight of transceiver, shovel and probe had no tangible effect.

In reply to gavmac:
It is clear we have the best information we've ever had in terms of making educated routes choices - blogs, SAIS, forecasting etc.

And you are right, every year, experienced and talented mountaineers are involved in avalanches in Scotland, but so are less experienced mountaineers. Yes we're human but bad calls can be avoided much more than they are. That's still not a judgement on all those involved, but its a more acurate reflection on the reality of human fallibility on UK winter routes.

So why not try your very best to avoid avalanche risk slopes, rather than giving yourself a very slim improved chance of being rescued (with a small increase in risk due to the extra weight) or improve the time it takes to get your body recovered.

In reply to Offwidth:
Wouldn't disagree with your summary and , of course, bad calls could be avoided much more than they are (both from the experienced and less experienced.)

But why is it one or the other? Why not do everything in your power to mitigate such an event but also equip yourself for you or somebody else's worst case scenario.

In reply to gavmac:
** Replying to Offwidth, not gavmac! **

I don't think anybody is saying that by carrying a transceiver onethen has carte blanche to ignore mitigation. The point is that avalanche prediction is not an exact science. One should always plan based on all the information available, but that doesn't reduce the risk to zero if travelling on snow. I'm happy to accept the residual risk with a £100-or-so investment.

In reply to James Jackson:

That's my point really. Yes, plan to avoid avalanches using the knowledge, pre trip information and on the ground information but why not equip yourself with the tools if it goes tits up.

In reply to Offwidth:

Someone close to me was avalanched whilst soloing last year, and they honestly believed that they had made a safe route choice. Obviously they hadn't and hindsight is a wonderful thing. Luckily they survived for me to be able to interrogate them on what on earth they were thinking at the time. My point is, that they thought they had avoided avalanche prone slopes. Until they hadn't... and took a 100m slide.

In this instance transceiver, shovel and probe wouldn't have made the blindest bit of difference but I see so much hubris relating to avalanche accidents, both in the people who are caught in them but also in the commentators. Deciding what kit to carry is a personal thing, especially if you are also carrying a climbing rack, but I don't think its necessarily increasing your risk to carry these items. It's your call. I don't always carry them, but I often will, and I always have a conversation with myself about whether it is appropriate equipment on any given day.

In reply to ROSP:
I haven't read the whole thread so may address points already made.

I always carry transceiver, probe and shovel when skiing out of bounds and won't go out with a partner who doesn't. This is because when you are skiing you are generally looking for softer deeper snow than when climbing and you don't always see the line from below.

If I have a partner who wants to carry a transceiver climbing I will happily put mine on too - but I don't make a big deal of it if the other person doesn't have the kit or doesn't want to carry it as I would rather just avoid the terrain (edited to add: this doesn't mean if I am wearing a transceiver I will just go wherever, more that for me terrain and snowpack awareness is more important than transceiver use for climbing - I would try to avoid climbing in a dodgy area regardless). I generally won't take a transceiver if my partner doesn't have one as that seems a bit pointless. For climbing if I do carry kit, I tend to carry a shorter probe and forgo the shovel (my axe has a pretty big adze) to keep the weight down a bit.

The short version is always for skiing, it depends for climbing.

Glenmore Lodge for sure and probably Plas Y Brenin too have been kitting out everyone on all their winter courses and giving training in using the kit across the board for the last couple of years. I think it is a good initiative in that it at least makes people aware of the kit so they can make an educated decision whether to use it for themselves or not, rather than just not taking kit because no-one else does.

In reply to James Jackson:

Its your choice. I've been knackered on winter routes that turned out harder than I expected and only just been OK. 400g doesnt sound much but I'd be more worried the small difference to get me up and over such cruxes might have pushed me into a bad fall or an exhausted trip or slip.

In reply to ROSP:

Interesting that people think it's a good idea to carry the holy trinity when skiing but not worth it when climbing, yet more climbers are getting caught in avalanches than skiers. The trouble with transceivers, probes and shovels is they don't keep you safe, they only give you the means to react after the fact, when it's often too late.

In reply to OwenM:


If you're talking about the uk that's probably not an indication of greater risk so much as of greater numbers of participants.

In reply to DaveHK: maybe, but the fact is they are getting caught up. I've read the arguments above, but I've liked Kathrync's answer as it seems entirely pragmatic and kind of matches mine

In reply to wbo:

Not maybe, there are massively more walkers and climbers out than skiers so just comparing the total figures of skiers and climbers caught in avalanches (if they're even available) is meaningless.

In reply to ROSP:

Thing is, as i said at the top of this thread, stats prove, as a climber when avalanched, your killed by trauma, whether or not your buried is immaterial! Only serves to find your body quicker! (Which is fine) For walkers and skier's on different terrain I can see the point and when walking I carry a probe and shovel (don't have transceiver) However the OP's post stated "climbing"! Hopefully before I launch myself onto my first climb of this winter my plan is to refresh my snow craft, for me its all about the education. Glad this post has come up in this timely fashion though!

In reply to ROSP:

BTW to all on here! If you witness, are caught in one, or trigger an avalanche the please report it on the SAIS site, all these reports are logged and help build a picture, as well as been used in evidence to securing future funding for the service we all use!

In reply to pass and peak:


Interesting. What's your thinking on that? If you saw a big avalanche take someone, I think probing without a signal to guide you would (while better than nothing) be a bit of desperate experience - needle in a haystack. I remember a number of cases in Scotland where probes were needed to find avalanche victims but in all of those (IIRC) it was sadly to recover bodies not save people and done by large MRT groups.

I have a transceiver, probe and shovel, but as far as I remember, I've only used them in the UK when skiing. It's odd and shows the path dependency, but skiing on Helvellyn last January, I had my avy kit with me - just because when you tour you just do. But had I been going to climb I wouldn't have thought about it.

In reply to TobyA:

If I had a transceiver I would carry it when walking, but as you say never used probe/shovel in anger for an avalanche, so still can't justify the expense. I have however witnessed and come to the aid of a group that where avalanched in Sneachda below Fiacaill ridge a couple of years ago, they weren't buried but spat out the side, luckily none of them had major injury's, maybe a few broken ankles, they were vary banged up though! Think from that day I carry both just in case, as you say better than nowt! As for climbing though as stated I would leave it behind if I had one. Who knows though they might get a lot cheaper and smaller

In reply to pass and peak:

Its not. Your chances of finding someone with just a probe are probably even lower than with just a transceiver.

At the end of the day, it is a personal judgement call whether to take avy gear for any activity on any given day. The choice depends on many different factors but one thing shouldn't vary: if you decide to take it make sure everyone in the group takes ALL of it, shovel, probe and transceiver and knows how to use it, and I mean, really, really knows how to use it. Given the time criticality of avalanche rescue this is the only way to make a difference. Again, ALL OF IT!

In reply to pass and peak:


There are several folk here with avalanche 'experience', they clearly weren't killed by trauma, unless ukc is being haunted.

Stats are interpretation of data they prove nothing, there provide a rough consensus or illustration, but not a black and white view, unless your stats are from a data field of 1, there will always be variation. There is quite a large amount of avalanche accident data now, the average or mean tends to show that if you are extracted from the snow in the first 15mins you have a 92% chance of survival. I'd say that is pretty good, compared to say 3hrs later you have to be very lucky to be alive. If you are buried in an avalanche then to be found in 15mins without a tranceiver is probably lottery winning odds.

What these stats don't show is that within that average some people were probably dead at 30seconds or even before the snow stopped moving and others were extracted many hours later and still lived, but they are extremes that lie outside the general trend.

In reply to DaveHK:


have you tried a relatively new transceiver, they are streets ahead of those made 25 yrs ago when I first used them. Simple to use, instructions written on, visual and audio clues.... etc... Yes training helps, but they aren't complex compared to say some gps units, I don't think they are beyond the limits of anyone understanding them.

If anything the biggest and only hindrance is being aware of where they are on your body when using a compass for precision navigation.

In reply to summo:

Yes, they've improved massively but they still require practice as do probing and shovelling techniques. I'm really curious about how you can have been involved with this kind of thing for 25 years and still think a transceiver on its own is adequate?

In reply to DaveHK:


I never said adequate, I said better than nothing as a climber, when you carry an axe already, a transceiver weighs only 3-400grams, if people are that weight conscious there are probably easier ways of lightening the load. There is also the logic that it doesn't matter what I carry if I'm buried? I can only hope that some walkers with 'all of it' as you put it come past and dig me out. Slim chance I know, but I never said otherwise, it's a means of increasing the survival chances, not a guarantee.

ps. I still put all my effort into avoidance, rather than some false sense of security.

In reply to summo:

I’ve only been involved in one avalanche. I wasn’t caught but saw an avalanche prone slope we had avoided release and take a lone skier with it. My mate phoned it in and “spotted” the last location we’d seen the skier whilst I skied over to start searching. Two French lads arrived on the scene as well (not part of our group) and in their panic, totally went to pot. Neither seemed to be able turn their transceiver from transmit to search so in the end I told them both to sod off as they were preventing the search starting effectively.

New transceivers might well be easy to use, but not being drilled in what to do means in a stressful situation, you may well go to pot to. Learn how to use yours and practise lots. That situation also bought me face to face with actual fresh avalanche debris and digging someone out with an axe would have been futile (well, it would have pushed you well over the 15mins).

In reply to summo:

Slight misunderstanding I think! As in my first post I refer only to those Fatalities not those just involved in, maybe the way I wrote it didn't come across right! Also only applies to Scotland. This info was gleamed on my last avalanche awareness course delivered by SAIS (very good by the way) as I remember their data came from the coroner reports!
Agree stats can be misleading but so can opinions and here I can only reiterate my opinion that I would prefer to concentrate on awareness and avoidance and won't be buying a transceiver any time soon.

In reply to summo:


Don't take this as "Summo bashing" but have you done much transceiver search practise where someone else has buried it for you ? It's very hard to get within 2 to 3 m before probing - often when you mark the point of lowest reading it's a good 1 m away from where you end up finding the "victim".

I don't carry one in Scotland for climbing because if you're caught, your best chance of being rescued is probably your mate, who is probably also taking the ride with you....

Even in the alps we'd always weigh up whether to take them on ski-in ski-out routes, depending on the terrain, the avi forecast, the risk that the extra weight might make us slower and therefore at more risk of other hazards.

I guess for me one of the major things is that when you're skiing you regularly ski on avalanche prone terrain (hopefulyl only when the risk is low...), you cover ground quickly, so can easily inadvertently ski over a roll from safe terrain into avalanche terrain and a lot of the most fun is to be had when there is fresh snow...

Conversely when climbing, I hardly go out in fresh snow. Winblown snow is a bigger factor, but that can usually be managed with route choice. Travel is slower, so you have more time to feel the conditions and assess the risk, and you can almost always choose a safe route around potential bad spots.

If taking a transceiver makes you feel safer then knock yourself out, but's it's worth thinking about whether it's actually changing the odds in any measurable way.

In reply to ROSP:

BTW here a good little fun educational resource from Glenmore Lodge. How high was your score? I've never got 100% yet!
https://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/outdoor-resources/avalanche-information/av...

In reply to gavmac:


Yes but notably there have been (many?) experienced people killed descending gullies or using them to approach harder climbs due to avalanche.

In reply to kathrync:


Plas Y Brenin haven't as far as I am aware, which is an interesting observation. It might be worth asking the question why they haven't issued this equipment on their courses.

The point you make about making an educated decision is a good one, and there in lies the problem in Scotland at the moment. Despite much assumption and antidotal evidence nobody really knows the primary cause of death in Scottish avalanches. In the last few years there is the theory that maritime (or moist) snow packs such as those in Scotland mean that survival times that we see in Europe are much reduced.

There needs to be much done before any of us can actually make an informed (or even evidence based decision) on how to mitigate that risk in terms of companion rescue in Scotland. People are looking at the solution before understanding the problem...

In reply to mrbird:
He's got a point.





Being that far under a bridge would probably protect you from the worst of most Scottish avalanches.

In reply to Alasdair Fulton:


Yes I have. Been a pupil on multiple avalanche related course, spent many hours listening to blyth wright get excited about the science of it all in the earlier days of SAIS, also training on ski type courses, plus it's covered to some degree on ML(W), but on MIC it's taken as a given you've got the basics. I've also done training etc.. with people I've taken out in winter to remain 'current' and seen how it's used by different agencies in Europe. The worst avalanche rescue I've assisted in involved having to join 2 probes together to reach the bottom of the snow pack, so I grasp that a transceiver isn't going to be the be all and end all.

As I said early, if someone is deeper then there will be a chance that person is off to the side, either because of snow density, or the transceiver following an arc, not a straight line. Early I stated that you may have to re-scan after digging and start digging diagonally, repeat until successful. I also said that aiming for body is fine, but you will often locate clothing, limbs or equipment, before the transceiver wearing torso.

Perhaps even just having a transceiver yourself when someone else is taken out, you can protect yourself whilst you head into the danger zone, mark the point last scene, then search down the line, locating a potential digging site etc.. That way when the cavalry arrives you have saved potentially precious time.


My whole point in this thread was I carry it as it increases my chance of survival, however small. They don't make me feel safer, I still practice what you call safe travel, but if the worst happens then it might help my chances or that of
others. I certainly haven't judged anyone for not carrying them, having said multiple times it's a personal choice. I fully accept it's a marginal improvement and have never stated otherwise. If 300grams of weight difference matters that much to me I'd probably eat a little less cake.

In reply to James Thacker:


would agree that setting density varies, they even vary throughout the season. Blocky slab from fresh wind blown or depth hoar weakness, big alpine powder slides that are very aerated, or Scottish wet snow slides or cornice collapse that sets pretty damn solid. Once watched 2 gully go one easter (from the relative safety of Coombe Gully) and it must have only travelled at 1 or 2 mph, but it was a metre plus depth of very wet snow slowly drifting by, quite spooky.

In reply to gavmac:

You mentioned "best practice" - is this within the context of mountain rescue or a wider Scottish hillgoing context?

Thanks

In reply to summo:

Have had a similar experience to your No.2 slide. Quite special.

In reply to Turfty:

I was thinking in an MRT situation really. I wouldn't want to suggest that equates to best practice for all hill goers. The flip side is I probably feel some internal pressure to carry that kit as I would when out with MRT. Of course the context is different and I feel I make these kit decisions based on my own plans and location.

In reply to ROSP:

In Scotland never when climbing/ winter walking. Always when skiing (almost entirely ski touring).

In the Alps, Always when skiing (anywhere...let's face it who can stay on the piste all day?) unless I am with a group of kids or the place is a death trap and needs a few days before fooling around in powder. Often when climbing due to approach or summit slopes. I will sometimes not bother if there's hardly any snow.

My rationale: a guestimate on my part of what are the odds of it being of any use. Based on personal experience, chats with people and occasional reading. I believe in travelling as light as is reasonable (reasonable may vary on destination). I would leave at my discretion whether or not I would go with someone with/without. This will be entirely dependent on context.

In brief- case by case.

In reply to gavmac:

Thanks gavmac, I thought that was your meaning but just wanted to clarify.

The joy of the scottish hills for me is that there are no rules, we make our own decisions and take responsibility for ourselves and our companions on the day, and if need be we learn from the outcomes of those decisions. Whether we use a transceiver, do what is now maybe the old fashion thing of trailing a rope if accessing a route via a dodgy slope or decide to give a particular route a miss on a particular day, it is our choice. Glenmore made thier choice to trial transceivers after the unfortunate incident a couple of years ago. I would be surprised if they don't continue to use them though as they are in the difficult position of being answerable to others with whom a nuanced debate about the use of transceivers within a Scottish context might not be easy.

With regard to skiing there seems to be people coming from two contrasting arenas into skiing the Scottish hills, those with a winter climbing/mountaineering background transferring into or taking on skiing as an additional activity and those from a downhill skiing background looking to get off piste. It seems to me that there is maybe a stronger drive to use transceivers amongst those coming from that pure skiing background than those from a climbing/mountaineering background. I wonder if this reflects more confidence in the winter climbing/mountaineering skier based on a more intimate knowledge and experience of the hills.

However people get into being in the Scottish hills in winter, and whatever their mode of engaging with the hills, I hope that there is that continuing recognition that there are no rules and everyone should be respected for making the choices that they make.

In reply to Turfty:
You make a good point here:


I hope I didn't want to come across as telling folks what they should do, which I wasn't aiming to do. I was just hoping to highlight that while Summo's rational, that there's a small improved chance of rescue carrying a transceiver over not carrying one isn't wrong, the risk reduction (in my opinion) is really very small.

In reply to summo:

Sussex isn't in Scotland

In reply to ROSP:

There seems to be a lot of talk of not looking to be on avalanche prone terrain, and using experience and knowledge to mitigate risk on this thread. Though many posters seem more experienced than I am in such situations, two things occur to me.

Firstly the unavoidale avalanche terrain that we often encounter when climbing, particularly on approching steeper (and often safer) climbing.

Secondly, the reliance on experience and training in mitigating risk. Many people here may be aware of the research done on heuristic factors in avalanche accidents. One possibly counterinuitive finding in this research is the increased level of risk that increased levels of knowledge can lead to.

http://www.sunrockice.com/docs/Heuristic%20traps%20IM%202004.pdf

"Victims with advanced avalanche training showed a
disturbing tendency to place a lot of faith in the cues of
familiarity and social facilitation."

"The overall trend in the graph of Figure 9 implies a
disquieting learning curve among avalanche victims.
In the early stages of avalanche knowledge and
experience, social cues seem to play an important role
in determining when a slope is safe. As knowledge and
experience grow, decisional heuristics appear to shift
to the perceived safety of familiar terrain and
overconfidence in one’s abilities to mitigate or manage
the avalanche hazard. If the 504 deaths represented in
Figures 8 and 9 tell us anything, it is that the six
heuristic cues have the power to lure almost anyone
into thinking an avalanche slope is safe. "

"It appears that formal avalanche education did not
make victims in this study less likely to be in accidents.
Across all levels of avalanche training, overall
exposure scores remained about the same, suggesting
that these individuals were in the business of trading
off the risks of being in avalanche terrain with the
perceived benefits of engaging in their chosen activity.
In other words, these victims were apparently using
their training to access avalanche terrain during
dangerous conditions so they could more fully enjoy
their sports."

No idea how relevent the research is in terms of the specific nature of the activities studied, but the implications seem pretty broad.

I'd like to thank you all for your constructive advice and for taking the time to explain your reasoning both for and against transceivers for Scottish winter!