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Hi all,
I was wondering what suggestions people have for building a muti directional anchor that would take both an upwards and downwards pull, with only passive protection? Does anyone here make sure their anchors will take an upwards pull and not just a downwards one?
Cheers in advance for your constructive advice!
Ross
I was wondering what suggestions people have for building a muti directional anchor that would take both an upwards and downwards pull, with only passive protection? Does anyone here make sure their anchors will take an upwards pull and not just a downwards one?
Cheers in advance for your constructive advice!
Ross
1
In reply to ROSP:
Why do you want an anchor (I'm assuming multi pitch climbing?) that can take an upwards pull? Massively differently weighted climbing partner?
To answer your question, threads and slings round trees have the potential to take an upwards pull, as do bolts and some pegs/piton placements.
Edited to say:
I've just read the rest of your post, and no, I don't consider an upwards pull on my anchors when building a multi pitch belay.
Why do you want an anchor (I'm assuming multi pitch climbing?) that can take an upwards pull? Massively differently weighted climbing partner?
To answer your question, threads and slings round trees have the potential to take an upwards pull, as do bolts and some pegs/piton placements.
Edited to say:
I've just read the rest of your post, and no, I don't consider an upwards pull on my anchors when building a multi pitch belay.
Post edited at 00:11
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In reply to ROSP:
It's possible to build multi directional belays with passive gear, but it's a bit of a faff and not required.
If I were to build one I'd place a nut eg for an upwards pull and then feed the rope through a krab on a nut placed for a downwards pull. That way if you were to get an upwards pull you only load the bottom nut, and for a downwards pull you end up loading both. This also keeps tension on the lower nut to keep it falling out.
Flexible cams in horizontal cracks are also multi-directional, as are threads, slung trees etc as mentioned by JFraser123.
Some examples of pieces placed in opposition on http://multipitchclimbing.com/ (chapter 5.4). The rest of the website is well worth a read too.
It's possible to build multi directional belays with passive gear, but it's a bit of a faff and not required.
If I were to build one I'd place a nut eg for an upwards pull and then feed the rope through a krab on a nut placed for a downwards pull. That way if you were to get an upwards pull you only load the bottom nut, and for a downwards pull you end up loading both. This also keeps tension on the lower nut to keep it falling out.
Flexible cams in horizontal cracks are also multi-directional, as are threads, slung trees etc as mentioned by JFraser123.
Some examples of pieces placed in opposition on http://multipitchclimbing.com/ (chapter 5.4). The rest of the website is well worth a read too.
3
In reply to ROSP:
Consider adding 5m of 5mm cord
use the cord to hold the upward nuts in tension off regular placements also look for inverted spikes these again need tension off conventionally oriented pro
(Cams are very useful)
Multi directional, very rare, never with adult partners to date
Consider adding 5m of 5mm cord
use the cord to hold the upward nuts in tension off regular placements also look for inverted spikes these again need tension off conventionally oriented pro
(Cams are very useful)
Multi directional, very rare, never with adult partners to date
Post edited at 06:50
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2
In reply to ROSP:
The same as for downward anchors. Try to keep nuts in vertical cracks under tension to avoid them dropping out.
" Does anyone here make sure their anchors will take an upwards pull and not just a downwards one? "
Not really but then I'm heavy 'enough'. Having said that it is something to keep in mind.
> Hi all,
> I was wondering what suggestions people have for building a muti directional anchor that would take both an upwards and downwards pull, with only passive protection?
The same as for downward anchors. Try to keep nuts in vertical cracks under tension to avoid them dropping out.
" Does anyone here make sure their anchors will take an upwards pull and not just a downwards one? "
Not really but then I'm heavy 'enough'. Having said that it is something to keep in mind.
Post edited at 07:24
1
3
In reply to ROSP:
I have once been very glad of placing something to protect against an upward pull on an overhanging limestone route.
I only placed it as an afterthought and my partner took a massive whipper. If I hadn't put it in we'd both have been left hanging in space as the force of the fall pulled me out of the niche I'd belayed in.
It can be important. Nuts seated upwards in a crack can do the job. In this instance it was a cam.
I have once been very glad of placing something to protect against an upward pull on an overhanging limestone route.
I only placed it as an afterthought and my partner took a massive whipper. If I hadn't put it in we'd both have been left hanging in space as the force of the fall pulled me out of the niche I'd belayed in.
It can be important. Nuts seated upwards in a crack can do the job. In this instance it was a cam.
6
"In reply to neuromancer:
What about just placing a piece above the belay before you set off?"
Wouldn't help for a heavy lead climber with lightweight second. Without gear placed above belay, leader will fall below belay - downward force. Piece of gear above belay; rope runs upwards from belay, through first bit of gear - so always upwards force.
What about just placing a piece above the belay before you set off?"
Wouldn't help for a heavy lead climber with lightweight second. Without gear placed above belay, leader will fall below belay - downward force. Piece of gear above belay; rope runs upwards from belay, through first bit of gear - so always upwards force.
5
In reply to ROSP:
I always use at least one upward pulling piece as i climb with my son who is considerably lighter than i am and we do lots of multi pitch climbs.
generally, I build the downward pulling anchor with a cordellette and then use the rope from his harness to the powerpoint and also to the upward puller(s) and clove hitched back to a screwgate on his belay loop - then i know that all the anchors are in a degree of tension.
I always use at least one upward pulling piece as i climb with my son who is considerably lighter than i am and we do lots of multi pitch climbs.
generally, I build the downward pulling anchor with a cordellette and then use the rope from his harness to the powerpoint and also to the upward puller(s) and clove hitched back to a screwgate on his belay loop - then i know that all the anchors are in a degree of tension.
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In reply to James Coulson:
And if your belay is weighted correctly, you need a huge weight difference and/or a very big (factor 1.5 +) fall to generate the force to pull up the belayer.
> "
> What about just placing a piece above the belay before you set off?"
> Wouldn't help for a heavy lead climber with lightweight second. Without gear placed above belay, leader will fall below belay - downward force. Piece of gear above belay; rope runs upwards from belay, through first bit of gear - so always upwards force.
And if your belay is weighted correctly, you need a huge weight difference and/or a very big (factor 1.5 +) fall to generate the force to pull up the belayer.
1
10
In reply to ROSP:
As a general rule, I don't bother. There has to be a chance of a seriouly big fall to pull my arse off a belay ledge.
As a general rule, I don't bother. There has to be a chance of a seriouly big fall to pull my arse off a belay ledge.
1
In reply to ROSP:
Nuts in horizontal features. Threads. Pre-tensioned opposed nuts in vertical features. I presume all of those count as 'passive'.
I've never worried much about it but then I'm pretty hefty. If my belay were very directional (say a small spike or delicately seated nuts) then I'd be as likely to move down a couple of meters away from it so any upward movement on my part wouldn't lift it as I would be to look for an opposed anchor.
Belays where a sideways or downward pull are possible get more attention, weight is little help there.
jk
Nuts in horizontal features. Threads. Pre-tensioned opposed nuts in vertical features. I presume all of those count as 'passive'.
I've never worried much about it but then I'm pretty hefty. If my belay were very directional (say a small spike or delicately seated nuts) then I'd be as likely to move down a couple of meters away from it so any upward movement on my part wouldn't lift it as I would be to look for an opposed anchor.
Belays where a sideways or downward pull are possible get more attention, weight is little help there.
jk
1
In reply to ianstevens:
That's not entirely true. I once passed my belayer (maybe 10% weight difference at the time) on my way to the floor and his way to the lowest bolt I'd clipped at about 4-5m. Assuming the distance fallen is taken to be to the point the rope goes tight that was probably FF 0.3-0.5, not a dramatic fall but for the belayer taking flight.
Why? Slick new rope, overhanging route with a straight rope run through long draws and away from any rock rub, DMM revolver on the top clip.
jk
> And if your belay is weighted correctly, you need a huge weight difference and/or a very big (factor 1.5 +) fall to generate the force to pull up the belayer.
That's not entirely true. I once passed my belayer (maybe 10% weight difference at the time) on my way to the floor and his way to the lowest bolt I'd clipped at about 4-5m. Assuming the distance fallen is taken to be to the point the rope goes tight that was probably FF 0.3-0.5, not a dramatic fall but for the belayer taking flight.
Why? Slick new rope, overhanging route with a straight rope run through long draws and away from any rock rub, DMM revolver on the top clip.
jk
In reply to ROSP:
I occasionally do it on multipitch routes as my usual partner is a fair bit heavier than me. Usually a low cam or upside down nut clipped back to the belay (typically using another strand of the rope(s)) or directly to my harness.
Just one piece will usually do, as it is only to stop you being pulled up off the stance (which could result in your other gear potentially lifting out) with your weight providing most of the resistance in event of a fall. This assumes you're using an indirect belay from your harness. I guess its more important to include one if you have built a direct belay (as body weight resistance potentially less?).
Its all about context really. If the climbing above is easy, or plenty of gear to provide some drag, or anchor mutli-directional (big tree) and/or a fall unlikely I probably wont bother. If its steep and fall likely to result in fair upward force, then stick one in. Always clip a 'jesus piece' too (often just the top piece of gear in the belay) to make sure you don't get a factor 2 fall onto the belay and redirect force upwards in event of an early fall, or on a run out pitch where there is no gear.
I'd recommend a read of the 'multipitch' website by Dave Coley (of this parish) as someone above has linked. Very useful resource.
I occasionally do it on multipitch routes as my usual partner is a fair bit heavier than me. Usually a low cam or upside down nut clipped back to the belay (typically using another strand of the rope(s)) or directly to my harness.
Just one piece will usually do, as it is only to stop you being pulled up off the stance (which could result in your other gear potentially lifting out) with your weight providing most of the resistance in event of a fall. This assumes you're using an indirect belay from your harness. I guess its more important to include one if you have built a direct belay (as body weight resistance potentially less?).
Its all about context really. If the climbing above is easy, or plenty of gear to provide some drag, or anchor mutli-directional (big tree) and/or a fall unlikely I probably wont bother. If its steep and fall likely to result in fair upward force, then stick one in. Always clip a 'jesus piece' too (often just the top piece of gear in the belay) to make sure you don't get a factor 2 fall onto the belay and redirect force upwards in event of an early fall, or on a run out pitch where there is no gear.
I'd recommend a read of the 'multipitch' website by Dave Coley (of this parish) as someone above has linked. Very useful resource.
Post edited at 11:59
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In reply to ianstevens:
I agree but think perhaps fall factor 0.9 for short falls and 1.2 for long falls would be nearer the mark.
Not done the maths/ looked at tables etc ( for what they may be worth ) but just observations from real fall situations.
It always helps to have a high belay on multi pitch as most belayer lifting is just a couple of metres in most situations ( unless the weight difference is huge ).
> And if your belay is weighted correctly, you need a huge weight difference and/or a very big (factor 1.5 +) fall to generate the force to pull up the belayer.
I agree but think perhaps fall factor 0.9 for short falls and 1.2 for long falls would be nearer the mark.
Not done the maths/ looked at tables etc ( for what they may be worth ) but just observations from real fall situations.
It always helps to have a high belay on multi pitch as most belayer lifting is just a couple of metres in most situations ( unless the weight difference is huge ).
In reply to jkarran:
Presumably if you were on your way to the floor and he was pulled up to the first bolt, your belayer was standing on the ground rather than being attached to a multi-pitch style belay? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
> That's not entirely true. I once passed my belayer (maybe 10% weight difference at the time) on my way to the floor and his way to the lowest bolt I'd clipped at about 4-5m. Assuming the distance fallen is taken to be to the point the rope goes tight that was probably FF 0.3-0.5, not a dramatic fall but for the belayer taking flight.
> Why? Slick new rope, overhanging route with a straight rope run through long draws and away from any rock rub, DMM revolver on the top clip.
> jk
Presumably if you were on your way to the floor and he was pulled up to the first bolt, your belayer was standing on the ground rather than being attached to a multi-pitch style belay? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
In reply to Rick Graham:
Neither have I, again, just observations and an guesstimate. Agreed on your second point though.
> I agree but think perhaps fall factor 0.9 for short falls and 1.2 for long falls would be nearer the mark.
> Not done the maths/ looked at tables etc ( for what they may be worth ) but just observations from real fall situations.
> It always helps to have a high belay on multi pitch as most belayer lifting is just a couple of metres in most situations ( unless the weight difference is huge ).
Neither have I, again, just observations and an guesstimate. Agreed on your second point though.
In reply to ianstevens:
No, you have the right end of the stick but both ends do the same thing. My point was that even relatively mild falls can make a weight-matched belayer really fly under the right (wrong!) conditions. Could have been a lot worse in a different setting.
jk
No, you have the right end of the stick but both ends do the same thing. My point was that even relatively mild falls can make a weight-matched belayer really fly under the right (wrong!) conditions. Could have been a lot worse in a different setting.
jk
Post edited at 14:42
In reply to ROSP:
Second question first: as is evident from the responses, whether an upward-directional is part of the anchor is situational. Although I don't know out to categorize all possible situations, there are two basic considerations that cover a lot of the ground.
(1) Lifting the belayer will extract the anchor. This means the anchor is constructed entirely of nuts placed in vertical cracks (more about cams in a moment) . In this case, the party has to make a judgement call about how likely it is that the belayer could be dragged above the anchor by a fall and what the consequences of that would be. Personally, if my anchor is only nuts in vertical cracks, I'll usually try for an upward-directional piece, because predicting whether the belayer will be lifted is almost impossible, given the variables of rope and rock friction, possible weight mismatches, and the severity of the possible leader falls.
Some people argue that cams in vertical cracks will simply revolve and reorient for an upward pull. This is a big maybe; they might also be extracted by a 180 degree rotation, and I don't think anyone has a good way to make that judgement call. Still, in a pinch, you stand a better chance of the anchor in vertical cracks surviving an upward pull if the pieces are cams. That said, many people try to save their cams for the lead and won't have them in the anchor.
(2) A lifted belayer will hit something. The typical scenario is a belay right under a roof, which the belayer might hit with his or her head if lifted. An unconscious belayer is not a good thing. Making sure there is an effective directional in such situations is seems critical to me.
The first question is about how upward directionals are rigged. There are two basic options.
(1) The directional piece holds down the anchor pieces. With this option, the belayer can still be lifted a distance equal to twice the length of the belay tie-in.
(2) The directional piece holds down the belayer directly. This keeps the belayer from moving at all and so may stiffen the catch. (Note that according to tests by the CAI, only a very small amount of belayer lift actually reduces peak loads to the top piece.) This method is the one you want if there is a roof directly over the belayer's head, since it is primarily the belayer and not the anchor that is being protected.
Rigging. An upward directional piece usually has to be held under tension in order to be reliable for its task. So the free rope coming out of the anchor is run down to the directional and a clove hitch is used to tighten the connection to the anchor. For situation (1) that's it. For situation (2), the free rope from the upward directional is run back to the belayer and clipped to the rope loop tie-in loop or harness loop (pros and cons for each method; I prefer everything clipped to the rope tie-in loop).
Second question first: as is evident from the responses, whether an upward-directional is part of the anchor is situational. Although I don't know out to categorize all possible situations, there are two basic considerations that cover a lot of the ground.
(1) Lifting the belayer will extract the anchor. This means the anchor is constructed entirely of nuts placed in vertical cracks (more about cams in a moment) . In this case, the party has to make a judgement call about how likely it is that the belayer could be dragged above the anchor by a fall and what the consequences of that would be. Personally, if my anchor is only nuts in vertical cracks, I'll usually try for an upward-directional piece, because predicting whether the belayer will be lifted is almost impossible, given the variables of rope and rock friction, possible weight mismatches, and the severity of the possible leader falls.
Some people argue that cams in vertical cracks will simply revolve and reorient for an upward pull. This is a big maybe; they might also be extracted by a 180 degree rotation, and I don't think anyone has a good way to make that judgement call. Still, in a pinch, you stand a better chance of the anchor in vertical cracks surviving an upward pull if the pieces are cams. That said, many people try to save their cams for the lead and won't have them in the anchor.
(2) A lifted belayer will hit something. The typical scenario is a belay right under a roof, which the belayer might hit with his or her head if lifted. An unconscious belayer is not a good thing. Making sure there is an effective directional in such situations is seems critical to me.
The first question is about how upward directionals are rigged. There are two basic options.
(1) The directional piece holds down the anchor pieces. With this option, the belayer can still be lifted a distance equal to twice the length of the belay tie-in.
(2) The directional piece holds down the belayer directly. This keeps the belayer from moving at all and so may stiffen the catch. (Note that according to tests by the CAI, only a very small amount of belayer lift actually reduces peak loads to the top piece.) This method is the one you want if there is a roof directly over the belayer's head, since it is primarily the belayer and not the anchor that is being protected.
Rigging. An upward directional piece usually has to be held under tension in order to be reliable for its task. So the free rope coming out of the anchor is run down to the directional and a clove hitch is used to tighten the connection to the anchor. For situation (1) that's it. For situation (2), the free rope from the upward directional is run back to the belayer and clipped to the rope loop tie-in loop or harness loop (pros and cons for each method; I prefer everything clipped to the rope tie-in loop).
5
In reply to ianstevens:
Definitely not true.
A climbing partner pulled a fridge sized block off Oceanid at Swanage and took a big fall over a decade ago.
I'm a slim build but my partner was of average height and weight. He went a good 10metres, I was on a semi-hanging stance and went up around a metre ending up hanging alongside my anchors. He stopped still two or three metres above me, so the FF was well under one.
That sort of thing isn't common (once in 20+ years) but in the right circumstances it doesn't take that much to substantially shift a belayer if the belay device happens to be fully locked off.
> And if your belay is weighted correctly, you need a huge weight difference and/or a very big (factor 1.5 +) fall to generate the force to pull up the belayer.
Definitely not true.
A climbing partner pulled a fridge sized block off Oceanid at Swanage and took a big fall over a decade ago.
I'm a slim build but my partner was of average height and weight. He went a good 10metres, I was on a semi-hanging stance and went up around a metre ending up hanging alongside my anchors. He stopped still two or three metres above me, so the FF was well under one.
That sort of thing isn't common (once in 20+ years) but in the right circumstances it doesn't take that much to substantially shift a belayer if the belay device happens to be fully locked off.
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In reply to GrahamD:
Or maybe he's rope soloing? Therefore an upwards pull is essential
> As a general rule, I don't bother. There has to be a chance of a seriouly big fall to pull my arse off a belay ledge.
Or maybe he's rope soloing? Therefore an upwards pull is essential
2
In reply to ROSP:
Well.....
looking at some of things people get concerned about, we should probably take this one more seriously that we do. I'm sure most people just chuck in a few pieces and hang from them, and most of time this works. But people don't fall off that much on multi pitch anyhow.
You will have seen people catapulted whilst sports belaying, and this will happen on a multi pitch route too if the fall is harsh. The belay thing is normally discussed in two ways. 1. Designing the belay so it does't rip right out. This is clearly a bad thing, but would be unlikely, and even if it did, hopefully there are other bits of pro in to stop you both dying. To stop this only requires pieces that can take an upward force connected to those that take a downwards one. This however will not stop the belayer being pulled upward. 2. Stopping the belayer being catapulted and smashed into the cliff. This requires a piece tied directly to them, or at least to the powerpoint (if there is one). I have no data on this, but getting smashed into the wall, and being expected to still not let go of that very important piece of string might be asking a little too much of beginners or children.
Some video of a belayer being lifted up: youtube.com/watch?v=hokqvyeqhmg&
Well.....
looking at some of things people get concerned about, we should probably take this one more seriously that we do. I'm sure most people just chuck in a few pieces and hang from them, and most of time this works. But people don't fall off that much on multi pitch anyhow.
You will have seen people catapulted whilst sports belaying, and this will happen on a multi pitch route too if the fall is harsh. The belay thing is normally discussed in two ways. 1. Designing the belay so it does't rip right out. This is clearly a bad thing, but would be unlikely, and even if it did, hopefully there are other bits of pro in to stop you both dying. To stop this only requires pieces that can take an upward force connected to those that take a downwards one. This however will not stop the belayer being pulled upward. 2. Stopping the belayer being catapulted and smashed into the cliff. This requires a piece tied directly to them, or at least to the powerpoint (if there is one). I have no data on this, but getting smashed into the wall, and being expected to still not let go of that very important piece of string might be asking a little too much of beginners or children.
Some video of a belayer being lifted up: youtube.com/watch?v=hokqvyeqhmg&
3
In reply to David Coley:
Wow, Zion looks awesome! Makes me wish I could still climb that and stomach visiting Trump's America.
jk
Wow, Zion looks awesome! Makes me wish I could still climb that and stomach visiting Trump's America.
jk
1
In reply to ROSP:
I tend to put in an upward-pull-something, especially if I'm sitting on one of those ledges with a bulge above. Not necessarily something very substantial, just enough to provide a little more 'weight'. Metolius safetech harnesses are great in this regard (sadly mine has been replaced with something else) as you can clip a piece of gear straight in to one of the gear loops. Then, some time later, one cheek goes numb....
I tend to put in an upward-pull-something, especially if I'm sitting on one of those ledges with a bulge above. Not necessarily something very substantial, just enough to provide a little more 'weight'. Metolius safetech harnesses are great in this regard (sadly mine has been replaced with something else) as you can clip a piece of gear straight in to one of the gear loops. Then, some time later, one cheek goes numb....
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