UKC

I went for a walk today... went a bit off piste and was rather astonished at the amount of tasty looking crags above the Wye east of yat rock. There are 200 ft crags of clean steep limestone, overhanging compact buttresses, strong lines etc. The whole complex of crags stretches for about a kilometer and is equivalent, in my estimation, to a couple of GO walls and another Symonds Yat (woo hoo).
I believe climbing here is banned but I can't understood why, how does the 'rare flora and fauna' argument, which I fully support generally as a way of keeping people off sensitive places, apply to a surprisingly clean, unvegetated crag on CROW access land?
Is there any dialog to be had about these crags, they are exceptionally beautiful, would not be over run by crowds as access is a bit tricky and I expect that trad would be the prevailing ethic (though there are bits that would make excellent sport venues)?
We as climbers are now pretty responsible, we agonise about our environmental impact and the sensitivity of the places we climb on.
I'm really interested in the opinions of local activists about this.

In reply to pasbury:
It's been a while since I lived there but:
The most obvious crag had a peregrines nest on it and telescopes set up for viewing from the Yat Rock itself. It was a big deal at the time, peregrines nesting in the south. By 2001 there were nesting pairs all over the Wye valley but the Coldwell ones were the tourist attraction.

According to the old Cordee guide some routes had been done before the birds arrived. Pat Littlejohnwas mentioned. I remember seeing old pegs and some ancient looking slings hanging down.

Things may have changed in the last 15 years but I'm sure there's someone with more up to date local knowledge.

There's also Seven Sisters Rocks at Biblins that are currently not in any guidebook. Some of it is an SSSI but the Upstream Pinnacle is similar in scale (but tattier) than the Longstone.

In reply to pasbury:

Your suggestion that tricky access would restrict climber numbers seems hugely optimistic?

In reply to timjones:

Yes you are probably right. I'd be very happy for climbing to remain banned if I knew why.
I wonder what overall impact climbers have at the allowed areas in the Wye Valley. Bird bans can be put into place where needed and are pretty well universally respected.

In reply to pasbury:

If its on access land whats stopping anyone? Providing any nesting birds are avoided like we do on any other crag

In reply to pasbury:
Sounds like it's worth pursuing with the relevant people. A similar ban was challenged at a spot down here in the southwest for the climbers to be told it was absolutely fine to climb there, by the very same body that requested the moratorium in the first place. About 15 years had elapsed in the intervening period.

*edit spelling

In reply to

Paging John Willson and Rick Sewards and any other interested people.

In reply to Tom Last:

Where was this?

In reply to pasbury:

Still being developed

It is NT land though.

In reply to Tom Last:
Ok; still interested to know where.

Coldwell rocks must be privately owned as it used for the husbandry of a bizarre monoculture of pheasants; each to their own I guess. I became rather unimpressed with their choice of land usage after the 15th plucking pheasant broke cover under my feet giving me my 15th near cardiac arrest.
Who the hell wants to spend good money shooting these tame unfortunate birds?
Anyway that's all besides - the land is CROW access land. I am fairly sure that the owners were rather it weren't - perhaps saturating the place with bloody pheasants will make it into some definition of farmland (Tory environment ministers, while reloading their Purdeys, would surely agree).
I think the CROW legislation was incredibly important, unlikely and beneficial. Let's keep a close eye on it.

In reply to pasbury:

Coldwell Rocks was open for climbing through the early seventies when I lived in Hereford. There were two very good (3 star) and long routes, about 250ft. One was around HVS and the other around E2 (I think I did the FFA of this one, a guy called Chris ....? did the FA). Climbing went on undisturbed for years 'under the radar' but later the cliffs were designated an SSSI and with the publication of a new guide to the Wye Valley, when things presumably had to be 'sorted out properly', climbing was banned, to the disappointment of many. I have never thought a complete ban was justified and would urge local climbers to reopen this issue. Pat Littlejohn

In reply to pasbury:

Hi all

My apologies for being very slow to respond to this topic, but thanks for raising it, and thanks very much to Pat for the historical context. My understanding is that Coldwell Rocks are (like Symonds Yat) owned by the Forestry Commission, designated as CROW access land but also an SSSI (which doesn't in itself rule out climbing, obviously, as many climbers' crags are SSSIs). Prompted by this thread I had a run round there today, and despite being unclimbed for 40-odd years some of the buttresses do look remarkably clean. In the new year (I haven't got time before then unfortunately) I will raise the issue with the FC - I imagine they will refer the question on to Natural England. Obviously it's not going to be climbable in spring and early summer - it's got probably the best known peregrine nest in the country, but I will see if there is any chance of climbing being allowed outside the nesting season. I can't promise anything about the eventual outcome though

Cheers

Rick (Wye Valley Access Rep)

In reply to pasbury:

In the meantime, please can I ask that no-one preempts things and tries to climb or abseil into the cliffs at Coldwell Rocks - not least because they have a telescope trained on them from the viewing point, so it's highly unlikely unlikely to go unnoticed.

Thanks
Rick

In reply to patlittlejohn:


Milford?

In reply to patlittlejohn:

Thanks Pat, it's as I thought, the likely pioneering suspects were active as they were at other Wye Valley crags and then a ban was put in place that was never challenged because the Wye Valley has never had a scene like that of mainstream climbing areas with an activist mindset about access.
I'd love to know more tales of the exploration of these crags. Were people like Arni Strapcans involved.

In reply to patlittlejohn:
And also; Pat Littlejohn! We're not worthy!!!

In reply to Rick Sewards:

Thanks for responding Rick. Totally agree that any pre-emptive action would be most unhelpful.

In reply to Rick Sewards:
Please don't misunderstand this post as I've always respected any climbing ban/restriction . However, I have a specific question regarding Peregrine Falcons which is borne out of ignorance more than anything.

After watching Planet Earth II on Sunday 11th December there was a feature on the Peregrine Falcons of New York City. This population of Peregrines was stated as being one of the largest on the planet and a bit of Googling appears to confirm this. Given these birds are choosing to nest in a very busy urban environment I'd honestly like to understand why concerns have always been made to the climbing community that the actions of climbers would disturb nesting Peregrines to such a degree that whole crags or large sections of crags have permanent or periodic/seasonal bans. Is the answer simply that the urban Peregrine has adapted? because even if this was the case it could be argued that it has been a successful strategy for the species - just curious

In reply to pasbury:

Answers to and comments on various of the above.

As far as Coldwell is concerned the prime mover in the original banning was the RSPB, as was the case with Point Quarry a bit later. Subsequent meetings with them failed to make progress. Forestry Commission is generally pro climbing but defers to NE, RSPB etc.

The answer to Lee's question is that they have the law on their side though both FC and NE do now have an obligation to take recreation into account. This may well provide grounds for arguing that the ban could become seasonal instead of total.

Rick, have you spoken to an activist, late of this forum, who did some field research a couple of years ago? He discovered some interesting facts about the ownership etc.

Ian, yes Chris Milford.

I believe I still have Pat's FA desriptions and a few others, though it would take me a day to root them out. I will do so if any progress is made.

Pasbury:
Ban-y-gor?

John

This thread was started in the ROCKTALK forum and has now been moved.
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In reply to xyz:

as far as i am aware the buildings of new york city are not all that popular with climbers?

In reply to Removed UserJohn Willson:
Ban-y-Gor: can you expand on that?

In reply to xyz:

most urban peregrines nest in almost completely inaccessible areas, as such they are free from direct disturbance unlike on crags with climbers. Susceptibility to disturbance also varies from bird to bird, some birds are much twitchier than others. Most seasonal bans aren't that intrusive and apply to a relatively small number of crags. It's very rare for nesting birds to trigger a complete ban, there are usually other factors, such as plant communities or the landowners preference.

In reply to pasbury:

I'll be posting shortly about Ban-y-Gor - I've had a couple of meetings on-site with the Wildlife Trust (who own it and most of Wintour's Leap). John's point was (I assume!) that some of the recent activity by climbers there has not been as sensitive as it should have been - something that I was unfortunately rather slow to pick up on.

Rick

In reply to xyz:

There's normally a nest in the bell tower of St. Georges church, which is now a lecture theatre for the University of Sheffield.

Bar a webcam, there is no disturbance for the entire nesting period, so I would guess that Peregrine's don't like being disturbed and may abandon chicks. Obviously a climber entering their cave would be a lot more intrusion than they might get in a dingy loft in New York. So until numbers have recovered significantly, they will always be treated with kid-gloves.

Which I guess is fair enough.

In reply to xyz:

Yes the urban Perigrine has adapted - I can see them flying outside my office window in north Bristol as they reduce the local pigeon population. But nobody gets within 50 ft of the nest and that is the crucial point for any cliff nesting bird. Perhaps except for Fulmars - they seem to able to hold their own.

In reply to pasbury:

I've been mulin over this and trying to fathom out why I don't think the restriction is an issue.

I think, for me personally, it seems pointless to worry about this when there are so many neglected routes on a crag that is only a short walk away on the other side of the ridge.

In reply to Oliver Houston:


I suspect it's more the safety of the climbers that's of concern!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

from the BMC article about nesting birds and bird bans:

"A particularly sensitive time is before the chicks hatch, whilst the parent birds are incubating the eggs – if the parents are scared off the nest, the eggs can cool very quickly, preventing the embryo developing correctly."

probably it is also worth noting that lots of other species of birds nest on the coldwell rocks not just peregrines

In reply to timjones:



Really?
Personally I would be enthused at the prospect of *** routes that are 'about 250ft'

Good luck with your enquiries/discussions/negotiations Rick.

In reply to Doug Kerr:



That was exactly what gave me cause to mull over the fact that I'm not unduly concerned by it

It's kind of pleasant to be able to enjoy a great days climbing and then walk a few hundred yards to view the Peregrines in the knowledge the restraint shown by climbers has played a part in their return.

In reply to timjones:
While I don't agree with you I do understand your position. This could be a 'new' crag; for my generation of climbers this was always a bit of a fantasy (mick wards's recent article touches on this).
I am conflicted about whether this crag should be 'developed' and I think the source of my doubt is in that word; developed.
I have no doubt that there are some intense experiences to be had on these crags; cool lines, and if sport rules were allowed, some seriously hard stuff.
Maybe we should just leave them alone??

In reply to teltrabm:

There are some crags with peregrines where there are no formal restrictions, and I've seen people walking there quite close to the nests, close enough that the parent(s) take to the air to register their concern. Perhaps those chicks are more resilient?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Ive climbed on an unbanned crag near a peregrine nest (i didnt realise untill a few pitches up) and would say a ban is as much about climbers safty as the birds!

In reply to timjones:



LOL and good for you. And there I was thinking the Wye Valley has more to offer than Symonds Yat!

I don't know anything regarding the circumstances, the detail or the continued relevance of prohibition at Coldwell Rocks. But yes, credit to climbers where credit is due, birds of prey and climbers can 'co-exist' with seasonal access restrictions.

In reply to pasbury:

I've always understood that the current bans in that area were the result of a compromise where there was a complete ban on climbing at Seven Sisters, Coldwell Rocks, and Symonds Yat Rock, in return we got unrestricted climbing and gardening allowed at Symonds Yat. Part of this arose because of over enthusiastic gardening and cleaning at those other locations - not just because of the peregrines (which may actually have arrived later).


I'm not sure that GWT would agree with this at the moment...

In reply to whenry:


I would agree that over-enthusiastic gardening would be a big problem but I was very surprised at how clean the rocks were - ironically much cleaner than most of the Yat where vegetation seems to take the upper hand in weeks and parts look like a vertical herbaceous border.


Gwent Wildlife Trust? Not sure what problem you are referring to - Ban-y-Gor which is not in Gwent anyway? Do the GWT have any responsibility for these crags which are all in England anyway (though I had to check the map to make sure of that as the border does some weird shenanigins round there)?

In reply to pasbury:

GWT = Gloucestershire Wildlife Trust. They don't have (as far as I'm aware) any involvement at the Yat, but they have been grumpy about events at Ban-y-gor, which they own.

In reply to whenry:


Thanks - that was definitely a senior moment for me

In reply to whenry:

Over enthusiastic gardening is quite a mild term for some of what went on.

I personally saw "X" with a PICK AND SHOVEL clipped to his harness as he abbed off to "clean" one route at The Yat.
I watched as he unclipped the Pick, and used it, road worker style, to remove "loose" boulders along with earth/undergrowth.
Then one loosened boulder, the size of a small TV, released from its home, went down the hillside, between the trees, bounced into the middle of a hotel car park, over the other side, and into the river (where the canoeists were !).
At this point the rest of us distanced ourselves from the miscreant (who I'm sure some people on this forum can identify but I won't - at least not publicly).
Luckily no cars or canoeists were hurt in the process.

Now I wish to underline that this was around 40 years ago, and I'm led to believe that the culprit ("X") no longer lives in this country.

In reply to fred99:

Which route was it

In reply to xyz:

As a climber/walker like yourself I respect climbing bans/restrictions on crags myself. I also volunteer for Staffordshire Wildlife Trust each year on a Peregrine Watch at one of the gritstone crags where a section of the crag is closed for climbing from when the birds return (March) until the breeding attempt is over which is usually by about mid June. This year was quite a bit later (July) as it was a new pair breeding and events took longer but the nest was successful which was very gratifying.

The vast majority of climbers/walkers respect these restrictions also and the only problem we had on any of my watches came from a walker with their dog who accidentally strayed into the restricted area otherwise we had few problems.

The Peregrine is recovering well in most areas but there are still some areas where the recovery has not been so good. Yes, it's true and very interesting that they are also now breeding on buildings in towns and cities which could be a reflection of a recovery. It is important to remember though that in the UK the Peregrine got seriously close to extinction as a breeding bird during the 60's and 70's as a result of the effects of organochlorine pesticides which were used at the time. There is plenty of research literature out there for anyone interested.

So yes it could be argued they have made a good recovery but it has taken five decades to get there and it's not something to repeat again. The threats now are more likely to come from unintentional disturbance from us as climbers and walkers and unfortunately some intentional which has always been the case.

Hence the need to protect them on the breeding sites with temporary climbing/walking restrictions for 3 or 4 months each spring into early summer.

They are magnificent birds to watch at the nest site especially mid air food passes and the stoop for a kill if you are lucky enough to see it.

In reply to bonebag:

Good points regarding peregrines, but I think you may be preaching to the converted on this thread: as you say, the vast majority of walkers and climbers are aware of these issues and are willing to respect restrictions (unfortunately, there's always likely to be a few idiots). The main thrust of this thread is not to ignore restrictions which are in place - I don't believe anyone proposed that - but to re-evaluate an old restriction in the light of up-to-date information.

In reply to Xavierpercy:


No idea, it was so long ago. But I think you know the culprit.