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I have a question for the electricians of the parish....
Background: We have recently had an extension and one of the results is a big bathroom - (4.8m x 2.5m).
Question is whether we can have a normal light switch.
Light switch will be 2.5m from the nearest fixed outlet (Shower).
I've got the 2011 version of the regulations, and reading the regulations, this appears fine. It's miles outside zones 0-2. Another 50cm and I could have a power socket there.
The consumer unit has just (last month) been installed to current regulations. In fact the house has just been rewired.
Part P is fairly silent on the matter delegating to 7671.
I am very aware there are religious views on this matter. Some electricians say that no wall mounted light switch is allowed in a bathroom, but I know that is not the case, and the objection appears more because "oh, well, we always have pull cords in bathrooms" rather than actually being supported by the regulations.
So, given my version of the regs is 2011, has anything changed and am I misreading anything?
By the way, anyone thinking of answers on the lines of "why not just have a pull-cord or put the switch outside the bathroom" please bear in mind that we have thought of, and discounted, those options.
I'm also aware I could ask our electrician, but he's not around on Sundays..
Post edited at 15:09
In reply to John_Hat:
When I'm wiring up Mrs Num Num's mother's lights, I normally like to connect the earth to the live main.
When I'm wiring up Mrs Num Num's mother's lights, I normally like to connect the earth to the live main.
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In reply to John_Hat:
As I understand it, they are allowed outside the zones.
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/53/section-701/index.cfm
Sockets are allowed too, but minimum 3m from the bath.
As I understand it, they are allowed outside the zones.
http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/53/section-701/index.cfm
Sockets are allowed too, but minimum 3m from the bath.
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In reply to John_Hat:
LOL, I've got to be careful what I say, in case the UKH/C 'elf and safety police are about on Sundays. (Kirkoman)
Go for it. I don't see the problem with a pull switch myself, but as long as you aren't able to reach the switch whilst in the bath/shower I don't think there's a *problem*. Unless anyone else knows there is ??
* I'm sure there will be though*
LOL, I've got to be careful what I say, in case the UKH/C 'elf and safety police are about on Sundays. (Kirkoman)
Go for it. I don't see the problem with a pull switch myself, but as long as you aren't able to reach the switch whilst in the bath/shower I don't think there's a *problem*. Unless anyone else knows there is ??
* I'm sure there will be though*
In reply to sbc23:
Good link - I guess this answers my question...
Are 230 V lighting switches (plate switches) permitted in a room containing a bath or shower?
Yes, a plate switch is allowed outside the zones of a bathroom. A switch should be at least 0.6 m from the edge of the bath or shower (outside the zones) and must be suitable for the location. The cords of cord-operated switches are allowed in zones 1 and 2 and are recommended for bathrooms and shower rooms to account for the humidity and condensation that could occur.
As we are looking here at around 2.5m from the edge of the shower and 4m from the bath that will be fine. The one I'm installing is designed to work (and continue working) in high humidity.
Good link - I guess this answers my question...
Are 230 V lighting switches (plate switches) permitted in a room containing a bath or shower?
Yes, a plate switch is allowed outside the zones of a bathroom. A switch should be at least 0.6 m from the edge of the bath or shower (outside the zones) and must be suitable for the location. The cords of cord-operated switches are allowed in zones 1 and 2 and are recommended for bathrooms and shower rooms to account for the humidity and condensation that could occur.
As we are looking here at around 2.5m from the edge of the shower and 4m from the bath that will be fine. The one I'm installing is designed to work (and continue working) in high humidity.
Post edited at 17:44
In reply to LeeWood:
See Steve's link above.
The minimum degree of protection for equipment installed in zones 1 and 2 is IPX4, or IPX5 where water jets are likely to be used for cleaning purposes. An exception to this requirement is a shaver supply unit complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 which, although it does not meet the requirements of IP4X, is permitted in zone 2 but must be located where direct spray from showers is unlikely. This type of shaver supply unit is the only type that is permitted in a bathroom or shower room.
See Steve's link above.
The minimum degree of protection for equipment installed in zones 1 and 2 is IPX4, or IPX5 where water jets are likely to be used for cleaning purposes. An exception to this requirement is a shaver supply unit complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 which, although it does not meet the requirements of IP4X, is permitted in zone 2 but must be located where direct spray from showers is unlikely. This type of shaver supply unit is the only type that is permitted in a bathroom or shower room.
In reply to John_Hat:
I would personally if I wanted a non pull cord use a switch with a high resistance to water (IP44 & above?).
Purely because at some point I or my loved ones will jump out the bath / shower & need to use the switch that is just two steps away with wet hands.
I would personally if I wanted a non pull cord use a switch with a high resistance to water (IP44 & above?).
Purely because at some point I or my loved ones will jump out the bath / shower & need to use the switch that is just two steps away with wet hands.
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In reply to Richard Wilson:
One is not disagreeing, but what's the difference between the above and a 240v plug socket and/or a wall plate within reach of the, say, kitchen sink?
Or a plate switch immediately outside a bathroom that isn't 4m long?
One is not disagreeing, but what's the difference between the above and a 240v plug socket and/or a wall plate within reach of the, say, kitchen sink?
Or a plate switch immediately outside a bathroom that isn't 4m long?
Post edited at 20:21
In reply to John_Hat:
Yeah, but this *is* UKC
> By the way, anyone thinking of answers on the lines of "why not just have a pull-cord or put the switch outside the bathroom" please bear in mind that we have thought of, and discounted, those options.
Yeah, but this *is* UKC
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In reply to John_Hat:
How about one like this?
http://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-single-2-way-outdoor-switch-brushed-steel-fini...
How about one like this?
http://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-single-2-way-outdoor-switch-brushed-steel-fini...
In reply to John_Hat:
It's just about reducing the risk. The Regs don't protect against people doing stuff really stupid.
In a bathroom, folks are often wet, barefoot and have wet hands. They form a very good fault path. Putting it outside the bathroom hopefully increases the chance of someone at least drying their hands. The regs as written now, really just prevent you touching the switch whilst sat in the bath or shower.
The socket 3m limit is to reduce the chance of someone resting a fan heater on the side of the bath, using hair straighteners in the bath or something equally stupid. Flex on these appliances is normally shorter than this. The act of getting an extension lead may make people think twice. Shaver sockets have a 1:1 transformer in them to create a local circuit and remove the return path via earth.
In a kitchen, you may drop an appliance into the sink but you are unlikely to be sat in the sink at the time and form part of the fault path, although you could have a hand in the sink whilst plugging something in.
> One is not disagreeing, but what's the difference between the above and a 240v plug socket and/or a wall plate within reach of the, say, kitchen sink?
> Or a plate switch immediately outside a bathroom that isn't 4m long?
It's just about reducing the risk. The Regs don't protect against people doing stuff really stupid.
In a bathroom, folks are often wet, barefoot and have wet hands. They form a very good fault path. Putting it outside the bathroom hopefully increases the chance of someone at least drying their hands. The regs as written now, really just prevent you touching the switch whilst sat in the bath or shower.
The socket 3m limit is to reduce the chance of someone resting a fan heater on the side of the bath, using hair straighteners in the bath or something equally stupid. Flex on these appliances is normally shorter than this. The act of getting an extension lead may make people think twice. Shaver sockets have a 1:1 transformer in them to create a local circuit and remove the return path via earth.
In a kitchen, you may drop an appliance into the sink but you are unlikely to be sat in the sink at the time and form part of the fault path, although you could have a hand in the sink whilst plugging something in.
Post edited at 21:36
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In reply to JJL:
Not just UKC - a lot of threads on t'internet where people asked the same question were answered with "why not just have a pull cord?", presumably because they thought the person asking the question had never seen one.....
Not just UKC - a lot of threads on t'internet where people asked the same question were answered with "why not just have a pull cord?", presumably because they thought the person asking the question had never seen one.....
Post edited at 22:46
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In reply to captain paranoia:
Especially if you are tiling the wall as its easier to retro fit.
Uses less wiring too.
Especially if you are tiling the wall as its easier to retro fit.
Uses less wiring too.
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In reply to John_Hat:
It's not a bad question - pull cords are remarkably handy things, however many new builds use a normal switch outside the bathroom instead so I could well believe many people haven't seen one. Pull cord's are easier to find in the dark or when very inebriated (by dint of wild flailing motions of the arms) and have far less chance of electrocution in a wet environment. From a DIY perspective, there's no messing around chasing out cable runs in walls and plastering them over in a way that never looks quite right etc.
If other members of my household didn't keep mislaying remote controls I'd have gone for a wirelessly controlled light in our bathroom instead of a pull chord (although wiring regs probably require you to have a switch? I'd just put it outside the room and leave it always on.). I'd go for a wireless one with both dimming and colour options.
> Not just UKC - a lot of threads on t'internet where people asked the same question were answered with "why not just have a pull cord?", presumably because they thought the person asking the question had never seen one.....
It's not a bad question - pull cords are remarkably handy things, however many new builds use a normal switch outside the bathroom instead so I could well believe many people haven't seen one. Pull cord's are easier to find in the dark or when very inebriated (by dint of wild flailing motions of the arms) and have far less chance of electrocution in a wet environment. From a DIY perspective, there's no messing around chasing out cable runs in walls and plastering them over in a way that never looks quite right etc.
If other members of my household didn't keep mislaying remote controls I'd have gone for a wirelessly controlled light in our bathroom instead of a pull chord (although wiring regs probably require you to have a switch? I'd just put it outside the room and leave it always on.). I'd go for a wireless one with both dimming and colour options.
Post edited at 23:29
In reply to wintertree:
Mine has a self adhesive wireless wall switch. It looks good, but is not always reliable since the capacitive dropper supply of the receiver is not up to the job. So I won't recommend it.
With led lighting being normal now it would make sense to use 12V in bathrooms.
Mine has a self adhesive wireless wall switch. It looks good, but is not always reliable since the capacitive dropper supply of the receiver is not up to the job. So I won't recommend it.
With led lighting being normal now it would make sense to use 12V in bathrooms.
In reply to John_Hat:
Another option is to have sensor operated lights that come on when you go in the room.
Another option is to have sensor operated lights that come on when you go in the room.
In reply to marsbar:
I was trying to avoid putting the reasoning here as I'll then get a pile of people explaining why I don't really know what I want and why actually what they think I should have is so much better, and probably that plate switches are the spawn of satan and cause the downfall of the world, etc. This being UKC and all that.
However, since it's you asking
Three reasons:
1) We want to be able to dim the lights.
2) Despite the bathroom itself being huge the entrance to our bathroom is quite narrow and there's not a good location for a pull cord inside or outside the bathroom.
3) We don't like pull cords.
I'll admit of the three reasons the last is probably the most important!
> What is your reasoning out of interest?
I was trying to avoid putting the reasoning here as I'll then get a pile of people explaining why I don't really know what I want and why actually what they think I should have is so much better, and probably that plate switches are the spawn of satan and cause the downfall of the world, etc. This being UKC and all that.
However, since it's you asking
Three reasons:
1) We want to be able to dim the lights.
2) Despite the bathroom itself being huge the entrance to our bathroom is quite narrow and there's not a good location for a pull cord inside or outside the bathroom.
3) We don't like pull cords.
I'll admit of the three reasons the last is probably the most important!
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In reply to John_Hat:
Fair enough. My parents have gentle dim lights sunk into the wall that are on some sort of sensor and come on when you go into the bathroom. Great for night time toilet visits. Im not sure putting a dimmer switch in a damp environment will be long lasting, as well as the concerns about wet hands. With a large room I would suggest splitting the lights into dim ones and bright ones for different uses. You can get waterproof double light switches too. I can ask my dad what kind of sensor he used if you are interested., I can't remember.
We have had to remove the dimmer switches now we changed to LED type from halogen, they made it flicker.
Fair enough. My parents have gentle dim lights sunk into the wall that are on some sort of sensor and come on when you go into the bathroom. Great for night time toilet visits. Im not sure putting a dimmer switch in a damp environment will be long lasting, as well as the concerns about wet hands. With a large room I would suggest splitting the lights into dim ones and bright ones for different uses. You can get waterproof double light switches too. I can ask my dad what kind of sensor he used if you are interested., I can't remember.
We have had to remove the dimmer switches now we changed to LED type from halogen, they made it flicker.
In reply to marsbar:
You can get dimmer switches that can cope with LEDs now. In fact I bought one yesterday in BnQ. £35 though I'm sure you can get cheaper...
You can get dimmer switches that can cope with LEDs now. In fact I bought one yesterday in BnQ. £35 though I'm sure you can get cheaper...
In reply to birdie num num:
That's not going to electrocute anyone, it'll just blow the fuses. If you wish to electrocute the MiL or burn her house down you're better off removing all the earths
> When I'm wiring up Mrs Num Num's mother's lights, I normally like to connect the earth to the live main.
That's not going to electrocute anyone, it'll just blow the fuses. If you wish to electrocute the MiL or burn her house down you're better off removing all the earths
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In reply to Toerag:
Not if you replace the fuses with 6" nails.
> That's not going to electrocute anyone, it'll just blow the fuses. If you wish to electrocute the MiL or burn her house down you're better off removing all the earths
Not if you replace the fuses with 6" nails.
In reply to GrahamD:
That'll still just melt stuff. You want something that will leave a live current so when MiL touches a switch or plugs something in then ZAP!!!
Bit like what our last electrician did to our downstairs toilet light. I could ask him how he managed it but for some reason we're not speaking to him right now.
That'll still just melt stuff. You want something that will leave a live current so when MiL touches a switch or plugs something in then ZAP!!!
Bit like what our last electrician did to our downstairs toilet light. I could ask him how he managed it but for some reason we're not speaking to him right now.
Post edited at 12:01
In reply to John_Hat:
Dangerous game to play with MiLs anyway. I suspect the more electricity they get, the more powerful they become.
Dangerous game to play with MiLs anyway. I suspect the more electricity they get, the more powerful they become.
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In reply to John_Hat:
I once worked in a bathroom, where a block had drilled into the bath, fitted a kettle element and had a switch near the bath so he could "warm the water up when it got a bit chilly". He liked long baths!! This was all fed from a socket in another room.
I often wonder whether his last bath was a VERY long one.
I once worked in a bathroom, where a block had drilled into the bath, fitted a kettle element and had a switch near the bath so he could "warm the water up when it got a bit chilly". He liked long baths!! This was all fed from a socket in another room.
I often wonder whether his last bath was a VERY long one.
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In reply to GrahamD:
I bought the Mother in Law a nice chair last Christmas. A waste of money though because Mrs Num Num wouldn't let me plug it in.
I bought the Mother in Law a nice chair last Christmas. A waste of money though because Mrs Num Num wouldn't let me plug it in.
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In reply to marsbar:
No worries.
Apologies, I noticed (but did not reply earlier - my bad) you offered to ask your father about the sensor - I *think* that's sorted now. The plan is that low level nightime light will be given from the mirror (lots of embedded LEDs), however many thanks for the offer.
No worries.
Apologies, I noticed (but did not reply earlier - my bad) you offered to ask your father about the sensor - I *think* that's sorted now. The plan is that low level nightime light will be given from the mirror (lots of embedded LEDs), however many thanks for the offer.
In reply to John_Hat:
We didn't like the pull cord in our bathroom as it was so noisy, it was impossible to go to the bathroom in the night without waking everyone in the house.
So I fitted one of these:
http://tinyurl.com/zhbr2b5
Best switch ever!
We didn't like the pull cord in our bathroom as it was so noisy, it was impossible to go to the bathroom in the night without waking everyone in the house.
So I fitted one of these:
http://tinyurl.com/zhbr2b5
Best switch ever!
In reply to Fredt:
Doesn't the light sometimes go out when you're having a long ( how shall I put this) relaxation period.
Doesn't the light sometimes go out when you're having a long ( how shall I put this) relaxation period.
In reply to krikoman:
Yes, but I have installed another switch to override it, to save having to keep waving your arms around in the bath.
Yes, but I have installed another switch to override it, to save having to keep waving your arms around in the bath.
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