/ We know better don't we?

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Big Ger - on 27 Nov 2016

“The vast majority of people who voted to leave the European Union did so because they believe it is best for Britain and not because they are intolerant of others.”
Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC)

We all know that everyone who voted "leave" did so as they are just puppets of the press, and are all obviously "little Englander, racist, non-thinking, Express/Sun/Daily Mail readers."

Someone should write to the EHRC and tell them!
Post edited at 23:54
Sir Chasm - on 27 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

We've had enough of listening to "experts".
Jim C - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> We've had enough of listening to "experts" who continually get predictions wrong, and just go on to the next preduction and insist they are right.

Peston ( Sunday) graphed out some of the experts predictions, they were wildly wrong, and what did their spokesman say in defence ?
" predictions are always wrong"

EddInaBox on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

But if only two percent of the people who voted, voted leave because because they are intolerant racists then that was enough to swing the vote.


Of those who voted to leave the E.U. "One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving 'offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.' - Lord Ashcroft Polls.

The thing most people who voted to remain (and who have tried to have a reasoned debate about it all) have said all along on this issue is that it was a false promise, the political reality is that we will not be able to strike a deal where trade with Europe is not significantly affected to our detriment if we insist on complete control over our borders and an end to real freedom of movement for workers.
tom_in_edinburgh - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

Who said they were all "little Englander, racist, non-thinking, Express/Sun/Daily Mail readers."

I certainly don't believe that, which is why I don't think there will be a majority for Leave once what Brexit means is defined.
Big Ger - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:
> But if only two percent of the people who voted, voted leave because because they are intolerant racists then that was enough to swing the vote.

Yes, and? Are you arguing for a "racist views" test, to eliminate anyone from voting who may have such a sad life that they hold such repulsive ideas?

> Of those who voted to leave the E.U. "One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving 'offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.' - Lord Ashcroft Polls.

Yes, and? Are you saying that "control over immigration and its own borders" is an inherently racist view?
Post edited at 02:09
jondo - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:
> Yes, and? Are you saying that "control over immigration and its own borders" is an inherently racist view?

i doubt anyone thinks controlling borders is 'racist'.
thing is free movement = single market.
border control = no single market.
apparently a lot of people didn't get that simple equation before the vote.
Post edited at 06:20
EddInaBox on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

I'm saying that racism could have been a factor in how a significant minority of people voted, and that doesn't contradict the EHRC's statement.

I'm also saying that the popular press and the Leave campaigners wrapped up their message about controlling immigration in Little England rhetoric and did not explain the consequences of implementing border controls truthfully. Accusations of racism came from the fringes, the real argument was that the we can't have restricted movement of workers and still have free access to the European Economic Area, the resultant damage to our economy will be a big problem.
Dave Garnett - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> “...they believe it is best for Britain and not because they are intolerant of others.”

You've lost me, which was it?
Jim C - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to jondo:

> i doubt anyone thinks controlling borders is 'racist'.
> thing is free movement = single market.
> border control = no single market.
> apparently a lot of people didn't get that simple equation before the vote.

Emily Thornberry was arguing at the weekend that we have been interpreting the Freedom of movement all wrong, it is actually Freedom of Movement of Workers only, and seemed to indicate that the UK have quite a bit of scope to decide who/what is a 'worker' and put controls in on who can come here say for job interviews, and then who can reside after they have secured a job. It was all just a miss-understanding, and we have these controls after all.

This would mean that the UK CAN stay in the Single Market and still have the kind controls that the Referendum required.

Sorted.

andyfallsoff - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Jim C:

I've also seen that line of argument. It also makes you wonder the point of leaving at all, does it not?
Andy Hardy on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Jim C:

If Emily is right then presumably all those people who retired to France and Spain had no right to buy houses and live out there? (since they aren't "workers")
skog on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> We all know that everyone who voted "leave" did so as they are just puppets of the press, and are all obviously "little Englander, racist, non-thinking, Express/Sun/Daily Mail readers."

I have to concede, this is really quite impressive.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone carry a chip that size before. And I'm Scottish.
wbo - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:
perhaps they didn't ask hard enough. I have relatives who aren't racists , but dont like people with funny James and stuff coming over here and pinching all the Jobs the young people should have
Post edited at 14:29
Rob Parsons on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> “The vast majority of people who voted to leave the European Union did so because they believe it is best for Britain and not because they are intolerant of others.”

> Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC)

That's taken from this letter: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/letter-all-political-parties-westminster

Fine. But how can the authors possibly know why the majority (or the 'vast majority') of people voted the way they did? Given, in fact, that they can't know, the claim is meaningless.

Big Ger - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Agreed, maybe we should scrap the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
Pete Pozman - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:
Let's get on with it. We voted to leave the EU. So let's get out of it so that we can quickly join EFTA . Then every body will be partially pleased. Farage and Gove may say that is not enough and that the "People" have spoken, but unfortunately the People only said leave the EU having not been offered the opportunity to say anything else.
As we can't go on having referendums perhaps we ought to let Parliament work out the best way forward.
Post edited at 22:17
Shani - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:
"The UK is in a position of unique and historic vulnerability. Its economy is facing the most significant shock since the Second World War. It has no time. It has no negotiating capacity. But Washington wants to help. It is prepared to rush a trade deal through Congress. It could take less than two years. But for this to be achievable, the UK needs to accept all of its demands. The Americans slide a piece of paper across the desk. The British team read the demands: they are horrendous. But they have little option but to capitulate. The only way to protect what remains of the British economy is to sell off British sovereignty."

Ian Dunt. "Brexit: What the Hell Happens Now?"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01M74JXK5
Post edited at 23:12
Big Ger - on 28 Nov 2016
In reply to Shani:

> Ian Dunt is editor of politics.co.uk. He specialises in issues around immigration, civil liberties, democracy, free speech and social justice and appears regularly on the BBC, Sky and Al-Jazeera as well as a variety of radio stations. He also writes lifestyle columns for other publications and websites.

No chance he may be biased?
jondo - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> No chance he may be biased?

he probably is, but let me repeat : 'what the hell happens now ??'
wercat on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to Shani:

I'm thinking of reading this


https://www.thebookpeople.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/qs_product_tbp?storeId=10001&catalogId...

I imagine I'll be better informed than the government would like afterwards
Stuart (aka brt) - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

I'll just leave this here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFjfbL1KWNI
Pete Pozman - on 29 Nov 2016
Jim C - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to jondo:

> he probably is, but let me repeat : 'what the hell happens now ??'

After we leave then there will be a partial answer to that question (for the other countries that will follow)
But as no one has previously left the EU, why are we suprised that there are no answers.
All we have is opinions from 'experts'. (for what they are worth)

Jim C - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:

If only Cameron had come back with a better deal from his 'negotiations' (and that is not just his fault) they would have headed off this problem.

There are more countries thanjust the UK that want more controls, and what the EU should have done is given everyone some more control back, and the UK referendum result may well have been different (and the entire EU would have been more settled- for a while at least)

The EU gambled on not giving ground on free movement and lost, and even after the UK have left, other countries will still be demanding more controls, the problem has not gone away.
jkarran - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

> Agreed, maybe we should scrap the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

So who would be tasked with guaranteeing our equality and human rights in that instance and what on earth makes you think they'd do a better job of it?
jk
andyfallsoff - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to Jim C:

> After we leave then there will be a partial answer to that question (for the other countries that will follow)

Why is it that you (and others who promote Brexit) decry the ability of experts to make any forecasts, yet feel you can predict with certainty what will happen to the rump EU (based on usually some vague assertions about how dysfunctional it is, rather than based on a detailed academic analysis)?
jondo - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to Jim C:

> After we leave then there will be a partial answer to that question (for the other countries that will follow)

> But as no one has previously left the EU, why are we suprised that there are no answers.

> All we have is opinions from 'experts'. (for what they are worth)

i'm not surprised there are no answers, just surprised that the British people did such an unBritish thing, that is to boldly go where there are no answers....
Pete Pozman - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to Jim C:

> If only Cameron had come back with a better deal from his 'negotiations' (and that is not just his fault) they would have headed off this problem.

The European leaders were up to their necks in the gravest refugee crisis since WWII and this posh guy from England comes round demanding a "deal" to sell to his backbenchers and UKIP to settle an entirely internal political conundrum. They were too busy and too grown-up that's why they didn't come up with some cunning plan to keep us in.
Why couldn't Cameron stage a resignation like Major did? Those stupid blimps on the Tory right have sold their country for a chance to go hatless into the midday sun.
What a god-awful shambles it all is!
ads.ukclimbing.com
Big Ger - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to Pete Pozman:
> What do you make of this Big Ger?


I think it's a remainers facebook page.

Try this; https://www.bitebackpublishing.com/books/arron-banks-brexit-diaries
Post edited at 20:16
Big Ger - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to jkarran:

> So who would be tasked with guaranteeing our equality and human rights in that instance and what on earth makes you think they'd do a better job of it?

Sarcasm isn't easy to spot on the internet, is it?

Pete Pozman - on 29 Nov 2016
In reply to Big Ger:

How are you feeling about their strong reassurances that staying in the single market was a given? Is that all we have to do then, simply lie? If Remain had said we will be stopping immigration, repatriating Poles, reopening the shipyards, mines and steelworks and cutting taxes and anything else you want, do you reckon that would have done it?

Big Ger - on 22:55 Tue
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> How are you feeling about their strong reassurances that staying in the single market was a given?

Who said that? Some on the Leave side suggested the UK does not need preferential access to the single market.
petenebo - on 00:00 Wed
petenebo - on 00:05 Wed
In reply to Big Ger:

> who may have such a sad life that they hold such repulsive ideas?

>
Cheer up, you'll get over it.

Have a titter at this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/stewart-lees-comedy-vehicle-series-3-ukip-pa...

Jim C - on 01:05 Wed
In reply to jondo:

> i'm not surprised there are no answers, just surprised that the British people did such an unBritish thing, that is to boldly go where there are no answers....

There could be some answers, but some people just don't want to end uncertainty, even if it is in their own citizen's interests to do so.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/donald-tusk-accuses-british-voters-backed-brexit-creating...
Jim C - on 01:19 Wed
In reply to andyfallsoff:

> Why is it that you (and others who promote Brexit) decry the ability of experts to make any forecasts, yet feel you can predict with certainty what will happen to the rump EU (based on usually some vague assertions about how dysfunctional it is, rather than based on a detailed academic analysis)?

I just listen to the other countries' MEPs.
Big Ger - on 02:06 Wed
In reply to petenebo:

So good, you said it twice!
Hugh J - on 06:33 Wed
In reply to petenebo:

Given Mr Lee's intellect, I doubt the Hugenot reference is a coincidence.
Post edited at 06:34
jondo - on 07:01 Wed
In reply to Jim C:

> There could be some answers, but some people just don't want to end uncertainty, even if it is in their own citizen's interests to do so.


could hardly blame EU countries. at this stage, isn't is 'every man for himself' as the ship is sinking ?
andyfallsoff - on 08:00 Wed
In reply to Jim C:

Fair enough. Which other countries' MEPs have said their countries are leaving the EU?

You'd think that an announcement of that magnitude would be bigger news.


GrahamD - on 09:23 Wed
In reply to andyfallsoff:

Other than Farage's cohort of course.
Pete Pozman - on 09:37 Wed
In reply to Big Ger:

> Who said that? Some on the Leave side suggested the UK does not need preferential access to the single market.

Did you watch the link? Farage et al clearly stating that we could be like Norway and stay in the single market. I expect lots of people were convinced by their arguments that we could leave the EU yet keep all the benefits of being a member by adopting a Norwegian/Swiss/Icelandic model. Which means that their claim to having a clear mandate for a "hard Brexit" is at the very least weakened if not completely blown out of the water.
The problem is that if you win on the basis of lies it is impossible to claim a mandate.
Jim 1003 - on 09:39 Wed
In reply to Pete Pozman:

We are still going out.....
lummox - on 09:48 Wed
In reply to Jim 1003:

you don't know what is going to happen, anymore than the rest of us. Including the Cons.
Trevers - on 10:23 Wed
In reply to Jim C:

> Peston ( Sunday) graphed out some of the experts predictions, they were wildly wrong, and what did their spokesman say in defence ?

> " predictions are always wrong"

Who's this "spokesman for experts"? Do they have a union or association now?
jkarran - on 11:24 Wed
In reply to Jim 1003:

> We are still going out.....

Probably.

Now please explain to me why and under what conditions you think that is a good thing. You voted for it, what settlement do you want and why?
jk
Jim C - on 12:19 Wed
In reply to Trevers:

> Who's this "spokesman for experts"? Do they have a union or association now?

I'm pretty sure it was an OBR chappie , the Andrew Marr graphics guy pictured him standing with a little cartoon ballon with those words " predictions are always wrong" inside.
( I think they were trying to infer that their predictions were not to be taken seriously )


Jim C - on 12:29 Wed
In reply to andyfallsoff:
> Fair enough. Which other countries' MEPs have said their countries are leaving the EU?

> You'd think that an announcement of that magnitude would be bigger news.

None, yet, but they were tearing into Tusk and others on all the same issues that the UK had raised, saying they too wanted changes, and if there were none, the EU would be reponsible for its own demise . This was speaker after speaker, all dissenting voices.

Not my usual to spend hours listening to that lot, but there was nothing else for me to do as I was touring Southern Ireland at the time, and it was warmer in the TV room of the campsite, and my mate and I actually found it very entertaining listening to the translators and watching the subtitles as the speakers got up and gave them a kicking for not reforming.
( and a lot of moans from the Irish people that we spoke to over the two weeks we were there about the EU who they say is treating them badly)
Post edited at 12:31
andyfallsoff - on 13:22 Wed
In reply to Jim C:

Interesting, but the tone from recently certainly doesn't reflect that - it sounds like you are speaking to a specific point in time when you were travelling, so how can you be sure that it is a fair representation of the ongoing position? Equally, just because there is some dissatisfaction, how can you tell that it means any countries definitely "will" leave (as you claim) - given the political movement needed for that to actually occur?

I'm not saying that we can say with certainty that no country other than the UK will ever leave. But your attitude of scorn towards the views of people whose academic or professional views on economics and the effects of leaving don't fit into your perspective seems at odds with the confidence which you afford your own opinions.
Pete Pozman - on 19:52 Wed
In reply to Big Ger:

What is Europe going to be like when the EU is all smashed up. (I include the UK in Europe)
How great will things be? No bad news please.
Timmd on 19:56 Wed
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Good question.
Big Ger - on 20:28 Wed
In reply to Pete Pozman:

Daft question.

Who is going to "all smash up" the EU? Get a grip lad.

Do you think I'd be wasting time here blathering on the internet if I had a crystal ball? I'd be out buying lottery tickets.
Pete Pozman - on 21:11 Wed
In reply to Big Ger:

But we know what we've got now. What are we going to get?
Farage and le Pen want the EU to be broken up. They seriously don't like the EU. I get some of the reasons why. But what do they/you want for the future?
Here's what I think: a Balkanisation of Europe with possibly the same consequences as in the actual Balkans following the break up of Yugoslavia; a patchwork of quasi fascistic/ democratic/socialistic states; the breakaway of some new mini states eg Catalonia and Scotland; the re-igniting of the Northern Ireland Troubles; reconquest of the Baltic states and Ukraine by Russia. If we're lucky Trump won't get involved.
Yes... we're going out. What's the optimistic projection? I need some good news.
Big Ger - on 22:39 Wed
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> But we know what we've got now. What are we going to get?
As I say, I don't have a crystal ball, do you?

> Farage and le Pen want the EU to be broken up. They seriously don't like the EU. I get some of the reasons why. But what do they/you want for the future?

So, a UK non politician and a French no hope fascist want something, why fixate on them.
haven't you seethe massive debate which is taking place in the UK and Europe?

> Here's what I think: a Balkanisation of Europe with possibly the same consequences as in the actual Balkans following the break up of Yugoslavia; a patchwork of quasi fascistic/ democratic/socialistic states; the breakaway of some new mini states eg Catalonia and Scotland; the re-igniting of the Northern Ireland Troubles; reconquest of the Baltic states and Ukraine by Russia. If we're lucky Trump won't get involved.

You're a bundle of joy you are, aren't you?

> Yes... we're going out. What's the optimistic projection? I need some good news.

The optimistic prediction is that the EU breaks up it's current configuration, drops the idea of further integration, and the nations of the EU join into a loose association of nation member states.

Pete Pozman - on 12:00 Thu
In reply to Big Ger:

Phew! I was a bit worried back there. Thanks.

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