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Hi all, I'm an American climber (trad, sport, bouldering, winter, whatever I can get my hands on). I'm interested to know if any of you have picked up useful concepts, ways of thinking, training tips etc from climbers in other countries or also such mentalities/ways of doing things that are unique to your own country.
As an American climber I have found a lot of useful information about trad climbing from this website, British trad climbing movies, Dave McLeod's books etc... Here are a few things that I have picked up from your sources and talking to some climbers from the UK. British climbers seem more inclined to master passive protection options than most of the Americans I have climbed with. I attribute this in part to the different types of rocks/cracks that we work with and also a bit of our American proclivity for the convenience/speed of cams. Passive protection manufactured in the UK is more thoughtfully designed (say DMM Wallnuts vs. BD Stoppers). Your passive gear is lighter, stronger and easier to place in my experience/opinion.
Another interesting contrast that I have picked up on is the grading of trad climbs. American climbers always give the technical (Yosemite decimal system 5.xx) grade of a climb first and then qualify it with a "danger" or hazard grade (Safe, PG-13,R,X). In contrast the E grade system gives a combination of the technical and hazardous nature of a climb. I think a consequence of these grading systems is that American climbers may be more likely to push the technical grade of the trad climbs that they do while sticking to relatively safe climbs while British climbers may be more likely to climb more dangerous but less technically demanding routes while they progress because it is a human impulse to work up the grades and that is the way the grade systems work in our respective parts of the world.
Anyways, I'd love to hear other perspectives on what we can all learn from each other. I may be entirely wrong in my perceptions of UK climbers/climbing but these are just some thoughts that I've had and I'd love to learn.
As an American climber I have found a lot of useful information about trad climbing from this website, British trad climbing movies, Dave McLeod's books etc... Here are a few things that I have picked up from your sources and talking to some climbers from the UK. British climbers seem more inclined to master passive protection options than most of the Americans I have climbed with. I attribute this in part to the different types of rocks/cracks that we work with and also a bit of our American proclivity for the convenience/speed of cams. Passive protection manufactured in the UK is more thoughtfully designed (say DMM Wallnuts vs. BD Stoppers). Your passive gear is lighter, stronger and easier to place in my experience/opinion.
Another interesting contrast that I have picked up on is the grading of trad climbs. American climbers always give the technical (Yosemite decimal system 5.xx) grade of a climb first and then qualify it with a "danger" or hazard grade (Safe, PG-13,R,X). In contrast the E grade system gives a combination of the technical and hazardous nature of a climb. I think a consequence of these grading systems is that American climbers may be more likely to push the technical grade of the trad climbs that they do while sticking to relatively safe climbs while British climbers may be more likely to climb more dangerous but less technically demanding routes while they progress because it is a human impulse to work up the grades and that is the way the grade systems work in our respective parts of the world.
Anyways, I'd love to hear other perspectives on what we can all learn from each other. I may be entirely wrong in my perceptions of UK climbers/climbing but these are just some thoughts that I've had and I'd love to learn.
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In reply to madtrad:
In Italy, "calabrone" means "massive great vicious wasps"; not to be mistaken with "calzone". Something worth knowing before you start up the route.
And when continental sport climbers come to the UK, and you replace their grigri with a VC controller, they learn that, yes, you actually do have to hold onto the rope...! Below the belay device!
In Italy, "calabrone" means "massive great vicious wasps"; not to be mistaken with "calzone". Something worth knowing before you start up the route.
And when continental sport climbers come to the UK, and you replace their grigri with a VC controller, they learn that, yes, you actually do have to hold onto the rope...! Below the belay device!
Post edited at 19:01
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In reply to madtrad:
Interesting take on the difference of grading focus. I had never thought about it that way but it makes a lot of sense - When I was in America, I was looking to climb the next 5.whatever grade and did indeed avoid R R/X X routes in part because they didn't offer any grade step-up in my mind (also in part because I was quite new to climbing and didnt like bold propositions). I don't think the reverse is necessarily true though - a lot of UK trad climbers stick to safer routes and most of us would definitely be looking for a reasonably safe route to break into a new grade (and ofc always a soft route). I think there is a stark contrast between the top 1% (professional or semi-pro climbers) who are filming their exploits and posting them online and the bottom 99% who are not close to the bleeding edge.
Personally I prefer cams because they are faster to place and on hard routes you have to protect often from very non-rest positions where time to terminal pump is a critical factor. I generally place nuts when I am in resting positions or in easy sections and save my cams up for the hard part of the route. I think there is probably about a 50/50 split in the climbers I know in the UK in terms of preference for nuts or cams.
I certainly picked up the idea of Jamming from foreigners, possibly when in the USA, possibly elsewhere. I'm absolutely s**** at it and will usually avoid any such moves like the plague but I did learn the theory!
In the UK situ pitons are almost all rusting death traps that shouldn't even be trusted to take bodyweight. In the Dolomites in Italy situ pitons are mostly bomber and form the majority of placements on every half-way popular route.
Also in the Dolomites I learned how to climb very quickly, everything from making belays faster to moving together up several easy pitches to faster changeovers, etc. because the routes can be huge. In the UK the longest routes are about 350m (with the exception of The Long Climb and stuff on St Johns Head that is about 400m and giant girdle nonsense) so moving slowly, placing micronuts, testing holds etc. is no problem and an hour per pitch is pretty normal. In the Dolomites there will be a piton in the microwire crack and you grab the holds and go because you have about 20 minutes to do each pitch.
Sadly the UK has also learned how to bolt like Europeans. Particularly in Scotland this has resulted in an explosion of bolting everything in sight, a great deal of which should not have been done. Scotland had a very clean but also unforgiving climbing ethic up till perhaps 10 years or so ago and it's a shame to see that eroding.
We can learn about aid climbing from Americans but it really never gets done in the UK. There are very very few aid routes and aid is generally only A0 and done when you realise your ego was bigger than your abilities!
Interesting take on the difference of grading focus. I had never thought about it that way but it makes a lot of sense - When I was in America, I was looking to climb the next 5.whatever grade and did indeed avoid R R/X X routes in part because they didn't offer any grade step-up in my mind (also in part because I was quite new to climbing and didnt like bold propositions). I don't think the reverse is necessarily true though - a lot of UK trad climbers stick to safer routes and most of us would definitely be looking for a reasonably safe route to break into a new grade (and ofc always a soft route). I think there is a stark contrast between the top 1% (professional or semi-pro climbers) who are filming their exploits and posting them online and the bottom 99% who are not close to the bleeding edge.
Personally I prefer cams because they are faster to place and on hard routes you have to protect often from very non-rest positions where time to terminal pump is a critical factor. I generally place nuts when I am in resting positions or in easy sections and save my cams up for the hard part of the route. I think there is probably about a 50/50 split in the climbers I know in the UK in terms of preference for nuts or cams.
I certainly picked up the idea of Jamming from foreigners, possibly when in the USA, possibly elsewhere. I'm absolutely s**** at it and will usually avoid any such moves like the plague but I did learn the theory!
In the UK situ pitons are almost all rusting death traps that shouldn't even be trusted to take bodyweight. In the Dolomites in Italy situ pitons are mostly bomber and form the majority of placements on every half-way popular route.
Also in the Dolomites I learned how to climb very quickly, everything from making belays faster to moving together up several easy pitches to faster changeovers, etc. because the routes can be huge. In the UK the longest routes are about 350m (with the exception of The Long Climb and stuff on St Johns Head that is about 400m and giant girdle nonsense) so moving slowly, placing micronuts, testing holds etc. is no problem and an hour per pitch is pretty normal. In the Dolomites there will be a piton in the microwire crack and you grab the holds and go because you have about 20 minutes to do each pitch.
Sadly the UK has also learned how to bolt like Europeans. Particularly in Scotland this has resulted in an explosion of bolting everything in sight, a great deal of which should not have been done. Scotland had a very clean but also unforgiving climbing ethic up till perhaps 10 years or so ago and it's a shame to see that eroding.
We can learn about aid climbing from Americans but it really never gets done in the UK. There are very very few aid routes and aid is generally only A0 and done when you realise your ego was bigger than your abilities!
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In reply to henwardian:
Not sure you are right about people looking for safe routes to progress through the grades - I think many who start out on grit do the opposite because bold routes are physically/technically much less of a step up, especially if you have good slab technique. I fell in to this camp for a few years but then became a scared-y cat after the age of about 25, when I was climbing above about E2 and when I took up sport climbing as well as trad. I think all three of those things contributed to the change!
Your point about climbing fast is the biggest one for me. Everyone in the UK is slow, and not just on rock. I remember on one alpine route I did, we overtook a Swiss pair twice on the two technical rock sections as we were far superior rock climbers, but they kept re overtaking us on the ground in between. When we got to a long traverse and the descent, they were literally twice as fast as us and finished hours earlier. They were just so much more confident in their movements. As well as having short routes, people in the UK only ever climb up. For Alpine routes, sideways and down is also important
I'm pleased the UK seems to be finally settling on Font grades as the best bouldering system. Obviously attempts to have our own years ago were rubbish. On a similar sort of note I'm also glad the French seem for the most part to have learnt that pof should be avoided completely in Font, and have come to accept chalk.
One thing I don't want to learn from abroad is Euro spaced bolting practices on what would otherwise be trad routes. I enjoy them as a novelty but UK rock is best left as either well bolted sport, or trad. A half way house is only fun when you expect it as part of a local tradition on a suitable rock type, and there isn't enough (if any) of that in the UK.
I disagree with you about European bolting practices, they will bolt basically everything(at least outside the mountains and sometimes in it) whereas we have very clear red lines. I think we have a good balance.
Not sure you are right about people looking for safe routes to progress through the grades - I think many who start out on grit do the opposite because bold routes are physically/technically much less of a step up, especially if you have good slab technique. I fell in to this camp for a few years but then became a scared-y cat after the age of about 25, when I was climbing above about E2 and when I took up sport climbing as well as trad. I think all three of those things contributed to the change!
Your point about climbing fast is the biggest one for me. Everyone in the UK is slow, and not just on rock. I remember on one alpine route I did, we overtook a Swiss pair twice on the two technical rock sections as we were far superior rock climbers, but they kept re overtaking us on the ground in between. When we got to a long traverse and the descent, they were literally twice as fast as us and finished hours earlier. They were just so much more confident in their movements. As well as having short routes, people in the UK only ever climb up. For Alpine routes, sideways and down is also important
I'm pleased the UK seems to be finally settling on Font grades as the best bouldering system. Obviously attempts to have our own years ago were rubbish. On a similar sort of note I'm also glad the French seem for the most part to have learnt that pof should be avoided completely in Font, and have come to accept chalk.
One thing I don't want to learn from abroad is Euro spaced bolting practices on what would otherwise be trad routes. I enjoy them as a novelty but UK rock is best left as either well bolted sport, or trad. A half way house is only fun when you expect it as part of a local tradition on a suitable rock type, and there isn't enough (if any) of that in the UK.
I disagree with you about European bolting practices, they will bolt basically everything(at least outside the mountains and sometimes in it) whereas we have very clear red lines. I think we have a good balance.
Post edited at 07:50
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In reply to Si dH:
>>A half way house is only fun when you expect it as part of a local tradition on a suitable rock type, and there isn't enough (if any) of that in the UK.
Just for Fun (E2 5c) and lots of other exciting part bolted 'Trad' routes in the Dinorwic slate quarries.
>>A half way house is only fun when you expect it as part of a local tradition on a suitable rock type, and there isn't enough (if any) of that in the UK.
Just for Fun (E2 5c) and lots of other exciting part bolted 'Trad' routes in the Dinorwic slate quarries.
In reply to Si dH:
My theory on why the boulders in font seem to be withstanding the huge pressures of climbers, is that in fact "pof" has actually helped protect the rock, giving it a slightly protective coating.
Some newer problems that I've seen are starting to wear already whereas some classics that are over 50 years old are fine.
The sandstone in font might have a harder crust than some of our own native sandstone, but just look how trashed some areas have become.
Bouldering in the forest is well over 100 years old, maybe pof has helped!?
My theory on why the boulders in font seem to be withstanding the huge pressures of climbers, is that in fact "pof" has actually helped protect the rock, giving it a slightly protective coating.
Some newer problems that I've seen are starting to wear already whereas some classics that are over 50 years old are fine.
The sandstone in font might have a harder crust than some of our own native sandstone, but just look how trashed some areas have become.
Bouldering in the forest is well over 100 years old, maybe pof has helped!?
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In reply to madtrad:
I introduced quite a few Australians to half ropes recently, they all seemed to think they were a much better idea than pissing about with single ropes and 1.2m long alpine draws!
The Australian way of abseiling (long prusik above the belay plate) seems much better for those with long hair.
I introduced quite a few Australians to half ropes recently, they all seemed to think they were a much better idea than pissing about with single ropes and 1.2m long alpine draws!
The Australian way of abseiling (long prusik above the belay plate) seems much better for those with long hair.
In reply to Si dH:
Yeah, I might be guilty of generalising by the people I know and the rock types in Scotland. I've hardly done anything on grit.
There did used to be very clear red lines, there was a bmc bolting policy that said something about no bolts on sea cliffs, in the mountains... something about bolts in quarries being ok but most other places not being ok to bolt. A lot of modern bolting in Scotland is in no way in keeping with that policy. It was very clear and I had thought that nothing had changed but I can't seem to find it anywhere online now, seems it has been replaced by a woolly BMC statement which essentially says "bolt wherever you want if you can find a few people who think it's a good idea" and gives almost no clear red lines at all.
Anyway, I've said my piece and others will feel differently of course.
In reply to spenser:
Erm... to me you just be doing it plain wrong if you had the prusik above the belay plate... not only would you be prone to getting the prusik totally jammed, it would be hard to control the abseil rate with only one hand on the brake rope and the prusik would also be much more likely to fail because it would be loaded directly with your full body weight rather than assisted by the belay device's braking power - I don't know about other folk but I've frequently had my prusik slide down the rope rather than biting when doing activities where the unameliorated bodyweight is placed on it directly (like prusiking).
> Not sure you are right about people looking for safe routes to progress through the grades - I think many who start out on grit do the opposite because bold routes are physically/technically much less of a step up, especially if you have good slab technique.
Yeah, I might be guilty of generalising by the people I know and the rock types in Scotland. I've hardly done anything on grit.
> I disagree with you about European bolting practices, they will bolt basically everything(at least outside the mountains and sometimes in it) whereas we have very clear red lines. I think we have a good balance.
There did used to be very clear red lines, there was a bmc bolting policy that said something about no bolts on sea cliffs, in the mountains... something about bolts in quarries being ok but most other places not being ok to bolt. A lot of modern bolting in Scotland is in no way in keeping with that policy. It was very clear and I had thought that nothing had changed but I can't seem to find it anywhere online now, seems it has been replaced by a woolly BMC statement which essentially says "bolt wherever you want if you can find a few people who think it's a good idea" and gives almost no clear red lines at all.
Anyway, I've said my piece and others will feel differently of course.
In reply to spenser:
> The Australian way of abseiling (long prusik above the belay plate) seems much better for those with long hair.
Erm... to me you just be doing it plain wrong if you had the prusik above the belay plate... not only would you be prone to getting the prusik totally jammed, it would be hard to control the abseil rate with only one hand on the brake rope and the prusik would also be much more likely to fail because it would be loaded directly with your full body weight rather than assisted by the belay device's braking power - I don't know about other folk but I've frequently had my prusik slide down the rope rather than biting when doing activities where the unameliorated bodyweight is placed on it directly (like prusiking).
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In reply to madtrad:
Something I've observed over many years - but not quite understood or yet learnt - is that the French don't seem to have the concept of climbing 'moves' or, in fact a crux... they just flow up. The b*stards.
I'm not joking. From Verdon in 1978 to the Plan just a few years ago, I've watched and they don't seem to see climbing as the game of chess that we do, pondering our moves and trying alternative strategies... they just seem to go for it, and are on the next move when the average Brit has only just made a first tentative foray and stepped back.
Something I've observed over many years - but not quite understood or yet learnt - is that the French don't seem to have the concept of climbing 'moves' or, in fact a crux... they just flow up. The b*stards.
I'm not joking. From Verdon in 1978 to the Plan just a few years ago, I've watched and they don't seem to see climbing as the game of chess that we do, pondering our moves and trying alternative strategies... they just seem to go for it, and are on the next move when the average Brit has only just made a first tentative foray and stepped back.
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In reply to madtrad:
Do you think British climbing walls set any differently from American walls?
I'd be interested to hear what you think.
Do you think British climbing walls set any differently from American walls?
I'd be interested to hear what you think.
Post edited at 19:44
In reply to madtrad: A certain section of British climbing could learn from the US approach to bolted belays or ab stations. There are too many dangerous rotting abseil stations in the UK that "have to" remain because that's the way it's always been. Ab stations in the mountains would be great too, you'd get so much more done in a day. That sort of thing probably won't happen fpor at least 60 years, we're so backward.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I'm afraid so far my only time on British soil has been spent in Heathrow airport so I can't directly compare the setting. In the states it's a pretty common complaint that much of the climbing and particularly bouldering is set in a "thuggish" style - big slopers/pinches, huge feet and big moves. I think the gyms here set in such a style because they make most of their money from the birthday party crowd and less experienced climbers who enjoy the quicker progression that big holds and pulling hard offers. It seems like something that rock climbers who train in climbing gyms should complain about more. I do, but no progress so far.
I'm afraid so far my only time on British soil has been spent in Heathrow airport so I can't directly compare the setting. In the states it's a pretty common complaint that much of the climbing and particularly bouldering is set in a "thuggish" style - big slopers/pinches, huge feet and big moves. I think the gyms here set in such a style because they make most of their money from the birthday party crowd and less experienced climbers who enjoy the quicker progression that big holds and pulling hard offers. It seems like something that rock climbers who train in climbing gyms should complain about more. I do, but no progress so far.
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In reply to spenser:
It's interesting! Americans use half ropes quite often for alpine climbing, ice climbing and multipitch climbs where full length rappels are required. But I have never once in memory seen Americans using half or twin ropes for a single pitch trad climb! We have plenty of single pitch trad climbs with wandering protection too. It's definitely a cultural difference that can be learned from.
It's interesting! Americans use half ropes quite often for alpine climbing, ice climbing and multipitch climbs where full length rappels are required. But I have never once in memory seen Americans using half or twin ropes for a single pitch trad climb! We have plenty of single pitch trad climbs with wandering protection too. It's definitely a cultural difference that can be learned from.
In reply to madtrad:
It's not at all uncommon in the Gunks to use half ropes.
(Half ropes are the only rope I own, so I use them for everything, big or small.)
> But I have never once in memory seen Americans using half or twin ropes for a single pitch trad climb! We have plenty of single pitch trad climbs with wandering protection too. It's definitely a cultural difference that can be learned from.
It's not at all uncommon in the Gunks to use half ropes.
(Half ropes are the only rope I own, so I use them for everything, big or small.)
In reply to Frank the Husky:
Yes, because that's a great reason for it
> Ab stations in the mountains would be great too, you'd get so much more done in a day.
Yes, because that's a great reason for it
In reply to madtrad:
Oh OK, don't worry the UK does get better .
That's interesting. I definitely think there's a fair few walls that overuse big jugs here especially on steep walls. I think that it's to open up more steep stuff for less experienced climbers which is a good thing but you do see the odd hard route that's in the big holds far apart vein.
Anyway enjoy your climbing here!
Oh OK, don't worry the UK does get better .
That's interesting. I definitely think there's a fair few walls that overuse big jugs here especially on steep walls. I think that it's to open up more steep stuff for less experienced climbers which is a good thing but you do see the odd hard route that's in the big holds far apart vein.
Anyway enjoy your climbing here!
In reply to Frank the Husky:
I defy you name more than half a dozen.
Just so backward in not building chairlifts and a McDonalds franchise on each hill as well. After all we only come to the hills for selfish convenience, don't we ?
> There are too many dangerous rotting abseil stations in the UK that "have to" remain because that's the way it's always been.
I defy you name more than half a dozen.
> Ab stations in the mountains would be great too, you'd get so much more done in a day. That sort of thing probably won't happen fpor at least 60 years, we're so backward.
Just so backward in not building chairlifts and a McDonalds franchise on each hill as well. After all we only come to the hills for selfish convenience, don't we ?
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In reply to madtrad:
First time in the Alps I realised what going lightweight actually meant ! It really does mean lightweight.
First time in the Alps I realised what going lightweight actually meant ! It really does mean lightweight.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
I'm glad you agree that it's a great reason. I (and pretty much every other climber - although they'd never admit it) really don't like flogging down gullies and nasty scree slopes. If I'm on Gable or wherever, I want to get the most out of the day. Four or five routes instead of two - yes please!
I'm glad you agree that it's a great reason. I (and pretty much every other climber - although they'd never admit it) really don't like flogging down gullies and nasty scree slopes. If I'm on Gable or wherever, I want to get the most out of the day. Four or five routes instead of two - yes please!
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In reply to GrahamD: The fact that there are *any* rotting (but well used) abseil stations is indicative of our backwardness.
There aren't McDonalds and chairlifts on every hill in the US so that's an irrelevant comment - but indicative of an entrenched mindset. Of course we go to the hills for selfish reasons. We don't go so that sex slaves in Mumbai can feel better, or the homeless of Manchester have a nicer Christmas - it's all about us.
There aren't McDonalds and chairlifts on every hill in the US so that's an irrelevant comment - but indicative of an entrenched mindset. Of course we go to the hills for selfish reasons. We don't go so that sex slaves in Mumbai can feel better, or the homeless of Manchester have a nicer Christmas - it's all about us.
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In reply to Frank the Husky:
My main objection to abseil stations or bolted belays on trad routes (you can do what you like on bolted routes) is that it reduces the element of self-reliance on the climb and to that degree some of the fun. Part of my enjoyment on multi-pitch routes is assessing where and when to belay, looking at the surroundings and thinking how best to set up the belay (sling round a rock or tree? What gear to use?). When you have a ready made belay to reach (maybe hilighted with a big red spot on the rock to avoid confusion) then yes you cover more rock in a day but you stop thinking about certain aspects of the climb. You are looking for a bolt not reading the rock, you are not thinking "what if?" beyond the knot you tie with. I presume you mean by "rotting ab stations" you mean the collections of sunbleached tat that one sometimes finds on the limestone cliffs or the ancient peg one finds in the mountains. Well I never trust to them anyway, right from the off they say to you "Hey! I have been here since dinosaurs walked the earth trust me if you dare but to be honest you'd be better off using your own sling or putting in some gear". I climb trad with the expectation that I will have to find and set up my own belay, I carry spare slings in case I need to escape off. That is the nature of the game.
In fairness though I am not totally against ab stations. I use the spikes at Pembroke (because there is sod all else to ab off). What else are you going to do? There's just grass.
My main objection to abseil stations or bolted belays on trad routes (you can do what you like on bolted routes) is that it reduces the element of self-reliance on the climb and to that degree some of the fun. Part of my enjoyment on multi-pitch routes is assessing where and when to belay, looking at the surroundings and thinking how best to set up the belay (sling round a rock or tree? What gear to use?). When you have a ready made belay to reach (maybe hilighted with a big red spot on the rock to avoid confusion) then yes you cover more rock in a day but you stop thinking about certain aspects of the climb. You are looking for a bolt not reading the rock, you are not thinking "what if?" beyond the knot you tie with. I presume you mean by "rotting ab stations" you mean the collections of sunbleached tat that one sometimes finds on the limestone cliffs or the ancient peg one finds in the mountains. Well I never trust to them anyway, right from the off they say to you "Hey! I have been here since dinosaurs walked the earth trust me if you dare but to be honest you'd be better off using your own sling or putting in some gear". I climb trad with the expectation that I will have to find and set up my own belay, I carry spare slings in case I need to escape off. That is the nature of the game.
In fairness though I am not totally against ab stations. I use the spikes at Pembroke (because there is sod all else to ab off). What else are you going to do? There's just grass.
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In reply to petegunn:
While that seems likely, I think we can say with more certainty that the constant brushing that chalk requires as well as the extra slipping of feet, which it must cause, are both contributing to the accelerated rates of damage that we are seeing now.
In fact the traditional Bleausard approach:- carpet to stand on, obsessive shoe cleaning, no chalk and a rag to slap the holds clean can be seen to be pretty much optimal for preserving the rock. The rest of the world should be copying this approach rather than just the grading system.
While that seems likely, I think we can say with more certainty that the constant brushing that chalk requires as well as the extra slipping of feet, which it must cause, are both contributing to the accelerated rates of damage that we are seeing now.
In fact the traditional Bleausard approach:- carpet to stand on, obsessive shoe cleaning, no chalk and a rag to slap the holds clean can be seen to be pretty much optimal for preserving the rock. The rest of the world should be copying this approach rather than just the grading system.
> My theory on why the boulders in font seem to be withstanding the huge pressures of climbers, is that in fact "pof" has actually helped protect the rock, giving it a slightly protective coating.
>
> Some newer problems that I've seen are starting to wear already whereas some classics that are over 50 years old are fine.
>
> The sandstone in font might have a harder crust than some of our own native sandstone, but just look how trashed some areas have become.
>
> Bouldering in the forest is well over 100 years old, maybe pof has helped!?
>
> Some newer problems that I've seen are starting to wear already whereas some classics that are over 50 years old are fine.
>
> The sandstone in font might have a harder crust than some of our own native sandstone, but just look how trashed some areas have become.
>
> Bouldering in the forest is well over 100 years old, maybe pof has helped!?
Post edited at 12:20
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In reply to Duncan Bourne:
That's not really in the spirit of trad... you're supposed to place your own stake/pitchfork/rake/pole and ab from that. After finishing, you naturally need to remove said "ab station".
> In fairness though I am not totally against ab stations. I use the spikes at Pembroke (because there is sod all else to ab off). What else are you going to do? There's just grass.
That's not really in the spirit of trad... you're supposed to place your own stake/pitchfork/rake/pole and ab from that. After finishing, you naturally need to remove said "ab station".
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In reply to Frank the Husky:
In one respect I agree. Tat should really be removed in most cases.
Entrenched against bringing everything down to pure convenience, then yes.
I never said otherwise. So why bother going to the hills if all you want is a convenient Alton Towers like experience
> The fact that there are *any* rotting (but well used) abseil stations is indicative of our backwardness.
In one respect I agree. Tat should really be removed in most cases.
> There aren't McDonalds and chairlifts on every hill in the US so that's an irrelevant comment - but indicative of an entrenched mindset.
Entrenched against bringing everything down to pure convenience, then yes.
> Of course we go to the hills for selfish reasons.
I never said otherwise. So why bother going to the hills if all you want is a convenient Alton Towers like experience
In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:
I'm not sure the rest of the world should be slapping Pof all over their crags ?
> In fact the traditional Bleausard approach:- carpet to stand on, obsessive shoe cleaning, no chalk and a rag to slap the holds clean can be seen to be pretty much optimal for preserving the rock. The rest of the world should be copying this approach rather than just the grading system.
I'm not sure the rest of the world should be slapping Pof all over their crags ?
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Ha...
My friend build a belay once by slinging a big bunch of ferns... good enough, if none put any weight on it... And yes, this was in summer... frozen ferns are how ever completely bomber...
Ha...
My friend build a belay once by slinging a big bunch of ferns... good enough, if none put any weight on it... And yes, this was in summer... frozen ferns are how ever completely bomber...
In reply to madtrad:
I think one thing about the UK is that there is a lot of variety within a relatively small area. You have Gritstone, Limestone, slate, granite, rhyolite. You have single pitch trad, multi-pitch, sports, sea cliffs, mountain routes. Much of the rock also lends itself to passive protection (plenty of cracks etc.)
I think one thing about the UK is that there is a lot of variety within a relatively small area. You have Gritstone, Limestone, slate, granite, rhyolite. You have single pitch trad, multi-pitch, sports, sea cliffs, mountain routes. Much of the rock also lends itself to passive protection (plenty of cracks etc.)
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In reply to madtrad:
I think the one crucial thing other countries can learn from the UK is how to argue bitterly of the tinniest differences in climbing ethic and etiquette
I think the one crucial thing other countries can learn from the UK is how to argue bitterly of the tinniest differences in climbing ethic and etiquette
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In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:
I thought that Pof was part of the rag they hit the rock with ? or is that so last century ?
I thought that Pof was part of the rag they hit the rock with ? or is that so last century ?
In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:
Your first post implies use of pof (which is what the old bleusards are usually using when you see them slapping the rock) is acceptable. Your second claims you never mentioned it. You are being obtuse.
The idea that chalk is worse than pof is complete BS, which is why pof is now frowned upon even in Font. Chalk has a visual impact but nothing more, and fairly minor at that (in the context) as long as people avoid huge donkey lines.
Pof on the other hand alters the rock surface and ultimately makes it harder or even almoat impossible to climb. Similarly stupid to climbing things with dirty feet and scrabbling around.
Your first post implies use of pof (which is what the old bleusards are usually using when you see them slapping the rock) is acceptable. Your second claims you never mentioned it. You are being obtuse.
The idea that chalk is worse than pof is complete BS, which is why pof is now frowned upon even in Font. Chalk has a visual impact but nothing more, and fairly minor at that (in the context) as long as people avoid huge donkey lines.
Pof on the other hand alters the rock surface and ultimately makes it harder or even almoat impossible to climb. Similarly stupid to climbing things with dirty feet and scrabbling around.
Post edited at 17:17
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In reply to GrahamD:
So I repeat
"In fact the traditional Bleausard approach:- carpet to stand on, obsessive shoe cleaning, no chalk and a rag to slap the holds clean can be seen to be pretty much optimal for preserving the rock. The rest of the world should be copying this approach rather than just the grading system."
So I repeat
"In fact the traditional Bleausard approach:- carpet to stand on, obsessive shoe cleaning, no chalk and a rag to slap the holds clean can be seen to be pretty much optimal for preserving the rock. The rest of the world should be copying this approach rather than just the grading system."
In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:
To be clear re: Pof (The resin as opposed to the cloth)
I have no idea whether it damages the rock or not ( I have no evidence and nor does anyone else) so , on that basis, I would prefer that a cautionary approach was taken and it wasn't used.
I am 100% convinced, by contrast, that chalk use does contribute signiificantly to rock damage ( at a very minimum through brushing and extra slippage) and therefore it should not be used.
To be clear re: Pof (The resin as opposed to the cloth)
I have no idea whether it damages the rock or not ( I have no evidence and nor does anyone else) so , on that basis, I would prefer that a cautionary approach was taken and it wasn't used.
I am 100% convinced, by contrast, that chalk use does contribute signiificantly to rock damage ( at a very minimum through brushing and extra slippage) and therefore it should not be used.
In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:
In your traditional approach, shoes are generally far grittier than a modern climber's shoes because they don't use a bouldering mat, ground erosion is worse for the same reason, and their rags usually have a pof ball wrapped up in them.
Your later post is also inaccurate. Use of brushing is fine as long as you do it carefully and use a soft brush.
> So I repeat
> "In fact the traditional Bleausard approach:- carpet to stand on, obsessive shoe cleaning, no chalk and a rag to slap the holds clean can be seen to be pretty much optimal for preserving the rock. The rest of the world should be copying this approach rather than just the grading system."
In your traditional approach, shoes are generally far grittier than a modern climber's shoes because they don't use a bouldering mat, ground erosion is worse for the same reason, and their rags usually have a pof ball wrapped up in them.
Your later post is also inaccurate. Use of brushing is fine as long as you do it carefully and use a soft brush.
In reply to Si dH:
I'm not suggesting a 100% return to old ways of doing things.
I'm suggesting learning from them.
Yes pads are good for ground erosion but useless for cleaning feet. The combination of a pad & carpet is what I use.
Just slinging a pad on the ground & not bothering to clean feet, other than, sometimes, a token swipe on a muddy pad
(which is what I now see 99% of the time) means feet are usually, now, much dirtier than when the normal approach was to stand
on a mat while obsessively cleaning shoes.
Yes, the hold slapping cloth was also , in the past, the same cloth that contained resin, that doesn't invalidate the approach of slapping loose sand from holds.
Certainly a harsh brush shouldn't be used but , however soft the brush, when a hold is brushed again and again and again ,possibly hundreds of times a day. the cumulatibve effect
must be to accelerate hold wear.
As PeteGunn says above, the rate of damage in Bleau has accelerated drastically in the relatively recent past and we need to be looking at why!
I'm not suggesting a 100% return to old ways of doing things.
I'm suggesting learning from them.
Yes pads are good for ground erosion but useless for cleaning feet. The combination of a pad & carpet is what I use.
Just slinging a pad on the ground & not bothering to clean feet, other than, sometimes, a token swipe on a muddy pad
(which is what I now see 99% of the time) means feet are usually, now, much dirtier than when the normal approach was to stand
on a mat while obsessively cleaning shoes.
Yes, the hold slapping cloth was also , in the past, the same cloth that contained resin, that doesn't invalidate the approach of slapping loose sand from holds.
Certainly a harsh brush shouldn't be used but , however soft the brush, when a hold is brushed again and again and again ,possibly hundreds of times a day. the cumulatibve effect
must be to accelerate hold wear.
As PeteGunn says above, the rate of damage in Bleau has accelerated drastically in the relatively recent past and we need to be looking at why!
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In reply to madtrad:
I think the French were a major influence on British and probably world climbing. Aside from redpointing (which presumably they got from the Germans) the French influence was about style, climbing with grace and precision, not just a desperate thrash to the top. This was back in eighties and I think that's been pretty much assimilated by most climbing cultures now.
From the US came the idea that power (strength) was really important, rather than just stamina. This came directly from the influence of John Bachar and Ron Kauk on Jerry Moffatt. Moffatt, being the best climber in the country and probably the world at the time, had a big influence on the top climbers around him and those ideas gradually seeped through to the rest of the climbing population.
From Britain, (this might be wrong) I thought came the idea of the indoor climbing wall and systematized training for climbing, by Pete Livesey. That's lead to probably the biggest change in climbing for many decades.
I think the French were a major influence on British and probably world climbing. Aside from redpointing (which presumably they got from the Germans) the French influence was about style, climbing with grace and precision, not just a desperate thrash to the top. This was back in eighties and I think that's been pretty much assimilated by most climbing cultures now.
From the US came the idea that power (strength) was really important, rather than just stamina. This came directly from the influence of John Bachar and Ron Kauk on Jerry Moffatt. Moffatt, being the best climber in the country and probably the world at the time, had a big influence on the top climbers around him and those ideas gradually seeped through to the rest of the climbing population.
From Britain, (this might be wrong) I thought came the idea of the indoor climbing wall and systematized training for climbing, by Pete Livesey. That's lead to probably the biggest change in climbing for many decades.
In reply to stp:
John Gill too?
> From the US came the idea that power (strength) was really important, rather than just stamina
John Gill too?
In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:
Maybe visitor numbers have increased. And if it's anything like grit, once the harder surface starts to wear away, the softer rock underneath will then wear more quickly, or so I've been led to believe.
> As PeteGunn says above, the rate of damage in Bleau has accelerated drastically in the relatively recent past and we need to be looking at why!
Maybe visitor numbers have increased. And if it's anything like grit, once the harder surface starts to wear away, the softer rock underneath will then wear more quickly, or so I've been led to believe.
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
Not only that but wear and tear does not self repair, so the damage we have now is not only the result of increased visitor numbers now but has been accumulated from every other preceding generation of climbers.
Not only that but wear and tear does not self repair, so the damage we have now is not only the result of increased visitor numbers now but has been accumulated from every other preceding generation of climbers.
In reply to GrahamD:
For sure, just speculating why the rate of erosion might have increased.
> Not only that but wear and tear does not self repair, so the damage we have now is not only the result of increased visitor numbers now but has been accumulated from every other preceding generation of climbers.
For sure, just speculating why the rate of erosion might have increased.
In reply to Si dH:
Chalk doesn't have a "minor" visual impact. The chalk overuse is part of the reason why climbers are not very well perceived by a number of people at least here in Font, and with good reason. The visual impact is tremendous; ask any non-climber what they think about covering boulders with fascinating shapes in what is supposed to be a natural area of outstanding beauty with white powder (or about a splitter in Indian Creek chalked up from bottom to top). Besides, over time, the rain makes the chalk "trickle" down boulders, thus creating ugly stripes that needlessly ruin the microflora. I'm not advocating pof (I don't use it) but chalk is a total disaster and the way the vast majority of climbers use it is a gross lack of respect towards nature but also other users like hikers, horseriders, families on a stroll... Plus chalk piles up over time and holds end up being clogged up and lose their grittiness; of course you can brush them, but even with a soft brush the rock will deteriorate further. Not to mention that it takes away a good chunk of the fun of climbing, which is figuring out the holds and moves, so it's also selfish vis-à-vis other climbers.
Sure you could say it's all about educating climbers, but the chances of climbers regulating themselves is about the same as companies doing so.
So yeah, here's something we could borrow from Elbsandstein climbers: give up on chalk. Personally the last bag of chalk I bought was in mid-2013. That's how little I use.
Chalk doesn't have a "minor" visual impact. The chalk overuse is part of the reason why climbers are not very well perceived by a number of people at least here in Font, and with good reason. The visual impact is tremendous; ask any non-climber what they think about covering boulders with fascinating shapes in what is supposed to be a natural area of outstanding beauty with white powder (or about a splitter in Indian Creek chalked up from bottom to top). Besides, over time, the rain makes the chalk "trickle" down boulders, thus creating ugly stripes that needlessly ruin the microflora. I'm not advocating pof (I don't use it) but chalk is a total disaster and the way the vast majority of climbers use it is a gross lack of respect towards nature but also other users like hikers, horseriders, families on a stroll... Plus chalk piles up over time and holds end up being clogged up and lose their grittiness; of course you can brush them, but even with a soft brush the rock will deteriorate further. Not to mention that it takes away a good chunk of the fun of climbing, which is figuring out the holds and moves, so it's also selfish vis-à-vis other climbers.
Sure you could say it's all about educating climbers, but the chances of climbers regulating themselves is about the same as companies doing so.
So yeah, here's something we could borrow from Elbsandstein climbers: give up on chalk. Personally the last bag of chalk I bought was in mid-2013. That's how little I use.
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