In reply to Chambers:
Sorry it took me a bit - work and that sort of thing
It’s an interesting and exceedingly difficult question, the extent to which values exist independent of human thought. Altruism seems to have both biological and psychological origins; biological origins are apparent in non-human species (any behaviour to spread those genes), but then we know so little about non-human psychology – how do we know whether or not any altruistic behaviours may be stimulated by, e.g., a need for companionship or a need for shelter or a need for help. I agree with you about altruism and human nature and how that makes us adaptable. Although while Stone Age ‘Person’  may not have woken up thinking about an Egg McMuffin, I’m sure a fair view woke up thinking that Urk had a much nicer axe than they did, and wouldn’t it be nice to have an carved spear thrower like Ugg’s. I think behaviour is innate, but we are socially conditioned to prefer or emphasise certain types of behaviour – which would influence whether Urk got over being jealous of Ugg’s stuff, made his own to keep up with Ugg, or whacked him over the head and took it. We need to think about the ways and means of which we educate and socialise ourselves in order to a better job of overriding less attractive biological behaviours (and what those might be is a whole other discussion…).
> The optimal, or most ethically or socially desirable allocation mechanism?
There /is/ much to discuss – and hopefully soon, because I think access to goods, service, perhaps even certain freedoms, well-being will be affected by the devaluing of work, continued deskilling and increased automation has. What jobs will we do when there are no jobs to be done?
> How do we get there?
I kind of hope (see our first paragraphs, although I guess I’m a little more sceptical/cynical) that our psychological and social skills can help us out. This is me being all weird and ideological, but it would be great to see society to move more towards a life of the mind and well away from a life of things. I’m not for going back to the past (antibiotics for one thing) but resurrecting, perhaps in new form, old practices of socialising, etc (fwiw, I don’t think social media, even fine forums such as UKC go even the slightest towards doing this; we need face to face interactions. I saw a documentary (ironically enough) a few years back on how television had destroyed the traditional ceilidh culture of the Highlands and Islands, and along with other processes, was eroding the social fabric.
> So what might it be? Just as the stagnation and decline of what historians call 'classical antiquity' gave birth to feudalism, and just as the stagnation and decline of feudalism in turn gave rise to capitalism, why should not the all-too-obvious stagnation and decline of capitalism lead to something else?
You are very optimistic-and I agree with the idea. I’m still cynical and pessimistic about the confounding effects of hardwired human behaviours remaining barrier to profound and positive change. All of this needs to be done at a very top level – our political class (broadly) does not have the ethics, imagination, ability, intelligence, courage or empathy to forge a new path. And society (as a whole) does not have will, ethics or imagination to compel them. I come back to needing to fundamentally change our education system as a vital first step.
> Could it happen? I think so. Will it happen? Maybe not. Thankfully, it doesn't depend on me!
But it does – it depends on all of us. But how do we do it? Just having this conversation with a colleague, feeling overwhelmed by where to start. Just doing “your own bit” isn’t really an option. Change needs an organised movement - but no one feels qualified or empowered to start that movement.
Thank you.