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What an utterly horrifying episode on humanity.
Words cant describe what these poor people and their children are going through.
Post edited at 11:40
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In reply to drunken monkey:
It's friggin horrible. Russians just dismissing UN reports out of hand. Completely emboldened by having Trump in the White House as well.
It's friggin horrible. Russians just dismissing UN reports out of hand. Completely emboldened by having Trump in the White House as well.
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In reply to DerwentDiluted:
This. In spades.
> I struggle to articulate a reply. Its just wrong and shames us all.
This. In spades.
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In reply to jonnie3430:
The UN is completely toothless - Putin & Assad wont bat an eyelid at anything they try to say or do.
The time for action was years ago - they should have enforced a no fly zone on Syria when they had a chance. Russia controls that airspace now. Even humanitarian aid drops into Aleppo would near on impossible now.
The blame lies with a multitude of people - Assad for massacring his own people, and the US/KSA etc funded "Rebels" for preventing the civilians from leaving for safety.
The UN is completely toothless - Putin & Assad wont bat an eyelid at anything they try to say or do.
The time for action was years ago - they should have enforced a no fly zone on Syria when they had a chance. Russia controls that airspace now. Even humanitarian aid drops into Aleppo would near on impossible now.
The blame lies with a multitude of people - Assad for massacring his own people, and the US/KSA etc funded "Rebels" for preventing the civilians from leaving for safety.
Post edited at 14:06
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In reply to jonnie3430:
They've been too busy worrying about wonder woman.
The organisation has failed so many civilians for far too long.
They've been too busy worrying about wonder woman.
The organisation has failed so many civilians for far too long.
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In reply to jonnie3430:
That surely can't be right. The UN wouldn't have to do anything if Assad, ISIS and Putin hadn't been wreaking havoc thus far. I blame them.
(I don't blame 'the rebels' for trying to escape a brutal dictatorship)
> Agreed, blame from me is on the UN.
That surely can't be right. The UN wouldn't have to do anything if Assad, ISIS and Putin hadn't been wreaking havoc thus far. I blame them.
(I don't blame 'the rebels' for trying to escape a brutal dictatorship)
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In reply to Fraser:
The complexity lies in that some of these rebels are deeply linked with AQ - their ideology is no better, probably worse than Assad.
The way Assad has dealt with Aleppo will breed resentment and play into the extremists hands.
What a thoroughly shite scenario all round.
The complexity lies in that some of these rebels are deeply linked with AQ - their ideology is no better, probably worse than Assad.
The way Assad has dealt with Aleppo will breed resentment and play into the extremists hands.
What a thoroughly shite scenario all round.
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In reply to drunken monkey:
It's nothing new in Syria, the Assads have "form" on slaughter of civilians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre
It's nothing new in Syria, the Assads have "form" on slaughter of civilians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre
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In reply to drunken monkey:
One person's terrorist being another's freedom fighter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1VNQGsiP8M&feature=youtu.be
One person's terrorist being another's freedom fighter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1VNQGsiP8M&feature=youtu.be
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In reply to drunken monkey:
Meanwhile, in a parallel universe far, far away.......
http://www.iraqinews.com/tag/mosul/
Meanwhile, in a parallel universe far, far away.......
http://www.iraqinews.com/tag/mosul/
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In reply to Andy Say:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/youre-not-hearing-the-whole-story-about-...
"In Mosul, western reporters travelling with the invading Iraqi army publish pictures of joyful populations liberated from the jihadists. In Aleppo, the attempt to free the city from al-Qaeda control is portrayed as a remorseless attack on the civilian population.
Assad and his allies have carried out war crimes. But that is not the whole story. When I visited the government-held areas of Aleppo earlier this year, I met scores of people who had fled for their lives from al–Qaeda or Isis in the east of the city. They told me hideous stories of how these jihadists, very few of whom were Syrian, had enforced a brutal form of sharia law, abolished education in schools and forced women to wear burkas and stay at home."
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/youre-not-hearing-the-whole-story-about-...
"In Mosul, western reporters travelling with the invading Iraqi army publish pictures of joyful populations liberated from the jihadists. In Aleppo, the attempt to free the city from al-Qaeda control is portrayed as a remorseless attack on the civilian population.
Assad and his allies have carried out war crimes. But that is not the whole story. When I visited the government-held areas of Aleppo earlier this year, I met scores of people who had fled for their lives from al–Qaeda or Isis in the east of the city. They told me hideous stories of how these jihadists, very few of whom were Syrian, had enforced a brutal form of sharia law, abolished education in schools and forced women to wear burkas and stay at home."
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In reply to Postmanpat:
>.... I met scores of people who had fled for their lives from al–Qaeda or Isis in the east of the city....."
ISIS in the the east of Aleppo city!?
That line would be enough to make me question either his credulity, or his motivation..
>.... I met scores of people who had fled for their lives from al–Qaeda or Isis in the east of the city....."
ISIS in the the east of Aleppo city!?
That line would be enough to make me question either his credulity, or his motivation..
In reply to MarkJH:
If you read the article it is clear he knows his west and east, he's saying in that sentence that he met them in the East of the city, although it's not well phrased.
> >.... I met scores of people who had fled for their lives from al–Qaeda or Isis in the east of the city....."
> ISIS in the the east of Aleppo city!?
> That line would be enough to make me question either his credulity, or his motivation..
If you read the article it is clear he knows his west and east, he's saying in that sentence that he met them in the East of the city, although it's not well phrased.
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In reply to winhill:
Has he been to east Aleppo? Nothing in his article suggests that he has and neither does that sentence (in context). Reporting testimony as fact is poor practice for a journalist. I'll probably stick with credulous.
> If you read the article it is clear he knows his west and east, he's saying in that sentence that he met them in the East of the city, although it's not well phrased.
Has he been to east Aleppo? Nothing in his article suggests that he has and neither does that sentence (in context). Reporting testimony as fact is poor practice for a journalist. I'll probably stick with credulous.
In reply to MarkJH:
A ten second google would provide numerous articles and a youtube interview about his 2016 trip to Aleppo. In case your unfamiliar with him, although his views are often controversial, Oborne is renowned for his journalistic integrity. For example, he resigned his job from the DT over the paper's relationships with advertisers.
> Has he been to east Aleppo? Nothing in his article suggests that he has and neither does that sentence (in context). Reporting testimony as fact is poor practice for a journalist. I'll probably stick with credulous.
A ten second google would provide numerous articles and a youtube interview about his 2016 trip to Aleppo. In case your unfamiliar with him, although his views are often controversial, Oborne is renowned for his journalistic integrity. For example, he resigned his job from the DT over the paper's relationships with advertisers.
Post edited at 00:09
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In reply to drunken monkey:
It would have been better if we'd offered to help in Syria by assisting Assad & the Russians get rid of rebels, Isis and all the other terror groups!
It would have been better if we'd offered to help in Syria by assisting Assad & the Russians get rid of rebels, Isis and all the other terror groups!
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In reply to Dave Perry:
if you haven't noticed almost every group in Syria is guilty of horrific war crimes, Assad and Russia are runners for the top of the list.
> It would have been better if we'd offered to help in Syria by assisting Assad & the Russians get rid of rebels, Isis and all the other terror groups!
if you haven't noticed almost every group in Syria is guilty of horrific war crimes, Assad and Russia are runners for the top of the list.
Post edited at 07:21
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In reply to jonnie3430:
The UN implements the wishes as agreed by its member state delegates. It is not an independent authority and cannot act unless sufficient consensus is reached. Clearly, given that principal member states were on both sides of the conflict, it could never have intervened in any way militarily.
> Agreed, blame from me is on the UN.
The UN implements the wishes as agreed by its member state delegates. It is not an independent authority and cannot act unless sufficient consensus is reached. Clearly, given that principal member states were on both sides of the conflict, it could never have intervened in any way militarily.
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In reply to drunken monkey:
Civil Wars always seem to be the most brutal and unforgiving of wars, and this becomes amplified when outside countries/forces become involved with and without the best intentions.
There are many historical precedents - Spain, China, Congo, Rwanda, Balkans, Afghanastan, Angola to name a few.
The UN is a great Ideal, but will only work when all countries are in agreement. It can put pressure on rogue states by way of trade sanctions etc but this is a fairly blunt instrument and can harm innocent people and smaller member states who may rely heavily on trading with the rogue country. The UN has no Army of it's own and has to rely on using the armies of it's member states. Unless there is total agreement between them this doesn't work - Syria.
Civil Wars always seem to be the most brutal and unforgiving of wars, and this becomes amplified when outside countries/forces become involved with and without the best intentions.
There are many historical precedents - Spain, China, Congo, Rwanda, Balkans, Afghanastan, Angola to name a few.
The UN is a great Ideal, but will only work when all countries are in agreement. It can put pressure on rogue states by way of trade sanctions etc but this is a fairly blunt instrument and can harm innocent people and smaller member states who may rely heavily on trading with the rogue country. The UN has no Army of it's own and has to rely on using the armies of it's member states. Unless there is total agreement between them this doesn't work - Syria.
In reply to john arran:
The UN should have organised a peace enforcement mission, that they didn't reflects on them and the impotent bureaucracy that they have become.
Even without buy in from all member states, there is enough sentiment world wide showing that the majority wish something had prevented this and the UN is the organisation that is meant to hold the responsibility.
The UN should have organised a peace enforcement mission, that they didn't reflects on them and the impotent bureaucracy that they have become.
Even without buy in from all member states, there is enough sentiment world wide showing that the majority wish something had prevented this and the UN is the organisation that is meant to hold the responsibility.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
This. Even if I have to hold my nose as he is one of yours.
> In case your unfamiliar with him, although his views are often controversial, Oborne is renowned for his journalistic integrity.
This. Even if I have to hold my nose as he is one of yours.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
I am well aware that he went on a government organised trip to western Aleppo; I have seen nothing to suggest that he visited the east, and would be very surprised if he had been able to (not a criticism of him by the way).
In either case; in the article he reports having met people (in government areas) who fled from AQ and ISIS in the east of the city. The first claim is entirely plausible; the second would be astonishing. I presume that he must have done some rigorous verification of the testimony he heard in order to report it as a fact. You would expect him (as a journalist) to be especially careful to describe this given that the claim aligns so well with the message of his hosts.
Obviously there is, to some extent, a Jihadi presence in eastern Aleppo, but using this fact to draw an equivalence (rather than just a comparison) between Aleppo and Mosul is extremely naive. It certainly doesn't look like good journalism to me.
> A ten second google would provide numerous articles and a youtube interview about his 2016 trip to Aleppo. In case your unfamiliar with him, although his views are often controversial, Oborne is renowned for his journalistic integrity. For example, he resigned his job from the DT over the paper's relationships with advertisers.
I am well aware that he went on a government organised trip to western Aleppo; I have seen nothing to suggest that he visited the east, and would be very surprised if he had been able to (not a criticism of him by the way).
In either case; in the article he reports having met people (in government areas) who fled from AQ and ISIS in the east of the city. The first claim is entirely plausible; the second would be astonishing. I presume that he must have done some rigorous verification of the testimony he heard in order to report it as a fact. You would expect him (as a journalist) to be especially careful to describe this given that the claim aligns so well with the message of his hosts.
Obviously there is, to some extent, a Jihadi presence in eastern Aleppo, but using this fact to draw an equivalence (rather than just a comparison) between Aleppo and Mosul is extremely naive. It certainly doesn't look like good journalism to me.
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In reply to jonnie3430:
No it doesn't, it reflects on the states that form the UN membership.
"something"? I can't think of any course of action that would have clearly resulted in a better situation than this. Starting WW3 over Allepo, horrible as it is, isn't a risk I would want to have been taken.
> The UN should have organised a peace enforcement mission, that they didn't reflects on them and the impotent bureaucracy that they have become.
No it doesn't, it reflects on the states that form the UN membership.
> Even without buy in from all member states, there is enough sentiment world wide showing that the majority wish something had prevented this
"something"? I can't think of any course of action that would have clearly resulted in a better situation than this. Starting WW3 over Allepo, horrible as it is, isn't a risk I would want to have been taken.
Post edited at 10:37
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In reply to MG:
We are each entitled to our opinions. Mine is that UN peace enforcement keeping the sides apart at the beginning could have prevented this.
We are each entitled to our opinions. Mine is that UN peace enforcement keeping the sides apart at the beginning could have prevented this.
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In reply to jonnie3430:
They haven't actually got an army, you know.
> Mine is that UN peace enforcement keeping the sides apart at the beginning could have prevented this.
They haven't actually got an army, you know.
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In reply to jonnie3430:
Lol. Which fantasy land do you live in?!
> We are each entitled to our opinions. Mine is that UN peace enforcement keeping the sides apart at the beginning could have prevented this.
Lol. Which fantasy land do you live in?!
Post edited at 11:21
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In reply to jonnie3430:
You do understand that one of the main protagonists bombing Aleppo to smithereens is a permanent member of the un security council?
You do understand that one of the main protagonists bombing Aleppo to smithereens is a permanent member of the un security council?
Post edited at 11:50
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In reply to MarkJH:
I really don't know where you are coming from.
He makes no claim to have visited eastern Aleppo, only to have met people who fled from there.
He is careful to report that he was "told" not that he had verified it.
As you well know, it is virtually impossible for any western journalist to go into eastern Aleppo, so the stories are unverifiable. Hence he reports it as what he was told, not as verifiable fact.
You appear to be saying that he might have met people who fled from AQ but to meet anyone who fled from ISIS would be "utterly implausible". Why are you so sure of that?
Apart from questioning his journalism, where are you coming from on the central theme of his article?
> I am well aware that he went on a government organised trip to western Aleppo; I have seen nothing to suggest that he visited the east, and would be very surprised if he had been able to (not a criticism of him by the way).
> In either case; in the article he reports having met people (in government areas) who fled from AQ and ISIS in the east of the city. The first claim is entirely plausible; the second would be astonishing. I presume that he must have done some rigorous verification of the testimony he heard in order to report it as a fact. You would expect him (as a journalist) to be especially careful to describe this given that the claim aligns so well with the message of his hosts.
>I really don't know where you are coming from.
He makes no claim to have visited eastern Aleppo, only to have met people who fled from there.
He is careful to report that he was "told" not that he had verified it.
As you well know, it is virtually impossible for any western journalist to go into eastern Aleppo, so the stories are unverifiable. Hence he reports it as what he was told, not as verifiable fact.
You appear to be saying that he might have met people who fled from AQ but to meet anyone who fled from ISIS would be "utterly implausible". Why are you so sure of that?
> Obviously there is, to some extent, a Jihadi presence in eastern Aleppo, but using this fact to draw an equivalence (rather than just a comparison) between Aleppo and Mosul is extremely naive. It certainly doesn't look like good journalism to me.
Apart from questioning his journalism, where are you coming from on the central theme of his article?
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In reply to jonnie3430:
Which sides and how? There is Assad, ISIS, myriad local armies, Turkey, various Kurdish groups, none of which anyone outside the local area really understands. To take one "simple" problem how would you keep Russian fighter jets from bombing a Aleppo hospital without starting a full on regional or wider war?
> We are each entitled to our opinions. Mine is that UN peace enforcement keeping the sides apart at the beginning could have prevented this.
Which sides and how? There is Assad, ISIS, myriad local armies, Turkey, various Kurdish groups, none of which anyone outside the local area really understands. To take one "simple" problem how would you keep Russian fighter jets from bombing a Aleppo hospital without starting a full on regional or wider war?
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In reply to drunken monkey:
I undoubtedly agree. But I think there are a lot of dark actors in this sorry episode. NNT gave me thought for reflection with this article:
https://medium.com/opacity/the-syrian-war-condensed-a-more-rigorous-way-to-...
Also, Eva Bartlett's contribution in this press conference is very thought provoking (go to 27 mins):
youtube.com/watch?v=ebE3GJfGhfA&
> What an utterly horrifying episode on humanity.
> Words cant describe what these poor people and their children are going through.
I undoubtedly agree. But I think there are a lot of dark actors in this sorry episode. NNT gave me thought for reflection with this article:
https://medium.com/opacity/the-syrian-war-condensed-a-more-rigorous-way-to-...
Also, Eva Bartlett's contribution in this press conference is very thought provoking (go to 27 mins):
youtube.com/watch?v=ebE3GJfGhfA&
Post edited at 12:11
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In reply to jondo:
We are not the world's peacekeeper, nor have we much of reputation when we've carried out 'regime' changes in the middle east. It is not up to us to decide who or what 'party' is in charge. At the moment it is Assad and we should have offered to help the them. Not doing so has led to this crisis. Now were dealing with the left overs at the end.
We are not the world's peacekeeper, nor have we much of reputation when we've carried out 'regime' changes in the middle east. It is not up to us to decide who or what 'party' is in charge. At the moment it is Assad and we should have offered to help the them. Not doing so has led to this crisis. Now were dealing with the left overs at the end.
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Because, I think, the rebel group who have for some years been in control in Eastern Aleppo had themselves fought ISIS out of the city, just as they had the Syrian Army/Hezbollah/Jaish al Madhi or whatever the Iraqi lot are called.
> You appear to be saying that he might have met people who fled from AQ but to meet anyone who fled from ISIS would be "utterly implausible". Why are you so sure of that?
Because, I think, the rebel group who have for some years been in control in Eastern Aleppo had themselves fought ISIS out of the city, just as they had the Syrian Army/Hezbollah/Jaish al Madhi or whatever the Iraqi lot are called.
In reply to Dave Perry:
so what if he is in charge ?
hitler and stalin and pot etc were 'in charge' , would you have helped any of them ?
what led to the crisis was his brutal assault at civilians who initially held peaceful protests against the regime. a regime who is made up of a minority which compromised 1/10 of the population.
why would you want to help the regime ? there is no oil there you know.
> We are not the world's peacekeeper, nor have we much of reputation when we've carried out 'regime' changes in the middle east. It is not up to us to decide who or what 'party' is in charge. At the moment it is Assad and we should have offered to help the them. Not doing so has led to this crisis. Now were dealing with the left overs at the end.
so what if he is in charge ?
hitler and stalin and pot etc were 'in charge' , would you have helped any of them ?
what led to the crisis was his brutal assault at civilians who initially held peaceful protests against the regime. a regime who is made up of a minority which compromised 1/10 of the population.
why would you want to help the regime ? there is no oil there you know.
Post edited at 17:40
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In reply to jondo:
'Won' is maybe a better word.
You might need to go back a few years further to find the seeds of this shitfest.
> so what if he is in charge ?
'Won' is maybe a better word.
> what led to the crisis was his brutal assault at civilians who initially held peaceful protests against the regime. a regime who is made up of a minority which compromised 1/10 of the population.
You might need to go back a few years further to find the seeds of this shitfest.
In reply to TobyA:
Fair enough, but he doesn't say when these people had fled ISIS (who were in eastern Aleppo until at least 2014 as I understand it) and he does note that Al Qaeda linked groups account for the vast majority of the jihadists in Eastern Aleppo.
It hardly seems the biggest point in the article.
> Because, I think, the rebel group who have for some years been in control in Eastern Aleppo had themselves fought ISIS out of the city, just as they had the Syrian Army/Hezbollah/Jaish al Madhi or whatever the Iraqi lot are called.
Fair enough, but he doesn't say when these people had fled ISIS (who were in eastern Aleppo until at least 2014 as I understand it) and he does note that Al Qaeda linked groups account for the vast majority of the jihadists in Eastern Aleppo.
It hardly seems the biggest point in the article.
In reply to Postmanpat:
I guess AQ means Jabat al Nusra or whatever they call themselves now. Since they ended up aligned with the FSA, against IS, the US has been a lot quieter about them. I see RT currently has lots of reporting about their misdeeds in E Aleppo though.
I guess AQ means Jabat al Nusra or whatever they call themselves now. Since they ended up aligned with the FSA, against IS, the US has been a lot quieter about them. I see RT currently has lots of reporting about their misdeeds in E Aleppo though.
In reply to Andy Say:
yes, history has it's way of storytelling. European mandates, Sunni-Shia divides and so on...
but, given that Syria exists , agreeing to share power , or recognizing that the Sunnis are a majority in the country would have averted the war entirely.
instead the Alawite leadership chose violence as a means to an end which is unsustainable, even if he won.
> You might need to go back a few years further to find the seeds of this shitfest.
yes, history has it's way of storytelling. European mandates, Sunni-Shia divides and so on...
but, given that Syria exists , agreeing to share power , or recognizing that the Sunnis are a majority in the country would have averted the war entirely.
instead the Alawite leadership chose violence as a means to an end which is unsustainable, even if he won.
In reply to TobyA:
Yup. The US, and therefore the Western media seem to have decided that the story du jour is evil Russians rather than evil AQ/Nusra jihadists. I accept that the situation is both ghastly and very complicated but it does feel a bit like we are being subjected to a concerted propaganda campaign.
> I guess AQ means Jabat al Nusra or whatever they call themselves now. Since they ended up aligned with the FSA, against IS, the US has been a lot quieter about them. I see RT currently has lots of reporting about their misdeeds in E Aleppo though.
Yup. The US, and therefore the Western media seem to have decided that the story du jour is evil Russians rather than evil AQ/Nusra jihadists. I accept that the situation is both ghastly and very complicated but it does feel a bit like we are being subjected to a concerted propaganda campaign.
Post edited at 19:49
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In reply to jondo:
Many dictatorships are by their very nature made up of an in elected elite minority. Many democratic countries are run by a small elite too. Many so called socialist countries are also run by despots.
As for Hitler we only went to war because he invaded Poland. And we actively helped Stalin who was pretty good at making populations disappear.
Are you suggesting we go a a world crusade to bring democracy to all the world?
Many dictatorships are by their very nature made up of an in elected elite minority. Many democratic countries are run by a small elite too. Many so called socialist countries are also run by despots.
As for Hitler we only went to war because he invaded Poland. And we actively helped Stalin who was pretty good at making populations disappear.
Are you suggesting we go a a world crusade to bring democracy to all the world?
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In reply to Dave Perry:
- So you are comparing the atrocities done by Assad to the fact that there are rich people who influence government and create social injustice in the UK ? There is what is going on in western countries, and there are dictatorships where you can be thrown in prison and have your balls electrocuted for months because you wrote some blog... get REAL !!
- i think there were a few other reasons, Poland was the last straw.
- How did you reach the conclusion I suggest that ? you seem to be a black or white person.
> Many dictatorships are by their very nature made up of an in elected elite minority. Many democratic countries are run by a small elite too. Many so called socialist countries are also run by despots.
- So you are comparing the atrocities done by Assad to the fact that there are rich people who influence government and create social injustice in the UK ? There is what is going on in western countries, and there are dictatorships where you can be thrown in prison and have your balls electrocuted for months because you wrote some blog... get REAL !!
> As for Hitler we only went to war because he invaded Poland. And we actively helped Stalin who was pretty good at making populations disappear.
- i think there were a few other reasons, Poland was the last straw.
> Are you suggesting we go a a world crusade to bring democracy to all the world?
- How did you reach the conclusion I suggest that ? you seem to be a black or white person.
Post edited at 09:13
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In reply to Postmanpat:
Agreed.
> I accept that the situation is both ghastly and very complicated but it does feel a bit like we are being subjected to a concerted propaganda campaign.
Agreed.
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In reply to drunken monkey:
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2016/december/15/getting-real-news-from-aleppo-with-vanessa-beeley/
Worth watching.
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2016/december/15/getting-real-news-from-aleppo-with-vanessa-beeley/
Worth watching.
Post edited at 13:23
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In reply to drunken monkey:
There's a need to question what we hear from the western media about Aleppo as some things don't ring true, have a look at this report (accepted its a few weeks old now)
youtube.com/watch?v=I8mA0h7dCKI&
There's a need to question what we hear from the western media about Aleppo as some things don't ring true, have a look at this report (accepted its a few weeks old now)
youtube.com/watch?v=I8mA0h7dCKI&
Post edited at 19:22
In reply to drunken monkey:
Presumably the Saudi and Jordanian SF plus assorted NATO assets embedded with 'the rebels' in eastern Allepo find liberation as horrifying as yourself. Yikes.
I've no doubt there are horrors being carried out by the Syrian army but are we supposed to believe social media reports put out by people allegegly operating where being a journalist is a instant pass to head choppy choppy?
D
Presumably the Saudi and Jordanian SF plus assorted NATO assets embedded with 'the rebels' in eastern Allepo find liberation as horrifying as yourself. Yikes.
I've no doubt there are horrors being carried out by the Syrian army but are we supposed to believe social media reports put out by people allegegly operating where being a journalist is a instant pass to head choppy choppy?
D
In reply to Dauphin:
What exactly are NATO assets? I'm a little out of the loop on this but last time I checked the only assets NATO directly owned were AWACS planes and I suspect landing them in eastern Aleppo is probably quite tricky what with all the rubble on the ground and advanced Russian Suhkois and MIGs in the air...
Again, ISIS do that, but the groups in Aleppo fought off ISIS.
> assorted NATO assets
What exactly are NATO assets? I'm a little out of the loop on this but last time I checked the only assets NATO directly owned were AWACS planes and I suspect landing them in eastern Aleppo is probably quite tricky what with all the rubble on the ground and advanced Russian Suhkois and MIGs in the air...
> where being a journalist is a instant pass to head choppy choppy?
Again, ISIS do that, but the groups in Aleppo fought off ISIS.
In reply to drunken monkey:
I think we are watching a proxi war in Aleppo- one of those our Boris criticised the Saudi's for doing!
Lets all get involved?
I think we are watching a proxi war in Aleppo- one of those our Boris criticised the Saudi's for doing!
Lets all get involved?
In reply to drunken monkey:
I'm sort of shifting the conversation - but what if Russia really has very little control over the Iranian forces and what if those forces march forward across the Euphrates and meets up with Turkish forces? Has this the potential for another branch of this chimera war? How this could be avoided could be through a UN protectorate operating in northern part of Syria beyond the Euphrates as a break on this potential scenario once Raqaa has been taken. It may take this sort of action to stop another terrible flare up of rivalries between Iran and Turkey. Anyone think this too?
I'm sort of shifting the conversation - but what if Russia really has very little control over the Iranian forces and what if those forces march forward across the Euphrates and meets up with Turkish forces? Has this the potential for another branch of this chimera war? How this could be avoided could be through a UN protectorate operating in northern part of Syria beyond the Euphrates as a break on this potential scenario once Raqaa has been taken. It may take this sort of action to stop another terrible flare up of rivalries between Iran and Turkey. Anyone think this too?
Post edited at 12:20
In reply to Shani:
Further to my comment about Eva Bartlett, some important fact checking from Channel4 news:
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-eva-bartletts-claims-abou...
Further to my comment about Eva Bartlett, some important fact checking from Channel4 news:
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-eva-bartletts-claims-abou...
In reply to Shani:
Truth is the first casualty in war, best to be sceptical about all you see and hear
Truth is the first casualty in war, best to be sceptical about all you see and hear
Post edited at 22:26
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