UKC

I thought I'd been told or heard that when seconding with belayer and climber both on the ground, and one side of the rope still clipped into the quickdraws, that the belayer shouldn't belay on that side.
But some googling has failed to show any mention of this, is there a good reason not to?

The best argument I can think of myself is that there will be increased friction for the belayer pulling through, maybe extra slack, and that the climber doesn't have the draws to keep their end of the rope along the route, particularly on wandering routes.

Is my concern to always avoid doing this misplaced?
Thanks for any comments.

In reply to damowilk:
It's perfectly fine unless the route is really steep and/or traverses alot. On really steep routes best they unclip on the way up to avoid a big swing if they come off. This can easily result in scraping the ground at certain crags. Grande grotta being a good example.

In reply to damowilk:

On a normal strait up route it isn't a problem safety wise, but your climber will find it annoying because the rope will often get in the way of the climb, as unlike in a normal top rope situation the rope is held in close to the wall and can't be moved to one side or behind the climber.

And as stated above, in the case of overhanging routes your climber wants to on the rope clipped through the draws otherwise they'll swing out if they fall and might not be able to get back on.

Basically, its best practice for the second to climb on the side of the rope that goes through the draws and unclip as they go. doing it the other way around doesn't offer any advantages and in fact can be a pain in the arse.

In reply to damowilk:

If you're working a route, as I guess you are, I think climbing on the "draws side" makes you work out where to unclip from and hence where to clip from when you redpoint. Personally I find unclipping harder (is it me?), so if I can unclip, I can clip.
Chris

In reply to cwarby:

My query wasn't so much whether to unclip or not: generally if I knew my partner just wanted to top rope after me, rather than lead it, and the route doesn't wander or overhang, I'll unclip on the way down to make it easier.
It's more if you get to the ground and they decide they just want to second it: I'd always assumed it was best practice that the rope is pulled through and they tie in the end that is clipped in to the draws, so the belayer belays on the rope that hangs down freely from the top.

In reply to damowilk:
Fair enough, I can see where you're coming from.
And a hell of a time for a conversation!!!!
Chris

Edit - just seen where you live!

In reply to cwarby:

Yep, evening musings here rather than middle of the night insomnia!

In reply to damowilk:

A lot of people seem to believe this and I'd been wondering myself where the belief came from. I climbed with a friend who insisted on climbing the clipped side because even though he found it really irritating, he had a feeling it was safer, though neither of us could think of a reason why.

It's certainly true that you need to climb on the clipped side of the rope on any sufficiently overhung or traversing route. Apart from that, though, it seems more like a matter of personal taste to me. The captive rope could be annoying while climbing but then having to unclip can be irritating too.

As you say, for straight up routes, the best option is probably just to unclip on the way down. If, for whatever reason, I haven't done that on my way down, my partner normally climbs on the unclipped side of the rope because she finds it less irritating.

The only other arguments I can think of are wear on the draws or mobility of the belayer. Perhaps indoor walls promote always climbing on the clipped side to avoid people with no common sense climbing the unclipped rope on overhangs and/or to slightly reduce the wear on their draws (particularly the first).

In reply to damowilk:

It is often fine to belay from the quickdraw side and sometimes it is desirable.

The usual concern is that, on over hanging routes, the climber might swing out if they fall and hit someone or something.

It can also be irritating to belay this side because you don't have the same freedom of movement and the rope and QDs can get in the way of the climber - this can cut both ways though, if the climber would struggle to unclip when seconding then it is less irritating.

Some walls point to increase wear on the bottom quickdraw but I wouldn't be too concerned about this. However, is a proper concern if you are belaying outside (make sure the gear (including bolts) is good to take a mulitdirectional and upward pull).

It can actually be safer in some circumstances (where the top clip is suspect (usual scenario rope goes through a single non locking carabiner)) to belay this side (in which case the last QD can be left in as a backup).

In reply to duchessofmalfi:



I have a vague recolection of a nast accident being discussed on here where the cause was attributed to a failure of the boffom (in situ) quick draw whilst lowering off.

In reply to damowilk:

Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't.

If the route is steep, diagonal or traverses you probably want to climb the strand running through the quickdraws so you don't swing away from the line or the wall in a fall.

If there is a risk the climber may do something daft like unclip the toprope from the belay krab on autopilot having unclipped a load of fixed draws and it is otherwise safe to do so then climbing on the free strand may be a better option.

Belaying the free strand gives more freedom to escape the line of any potential rockfall coming from the climber and to better position yourself to see.

Horses for courses basically.
jk

In reply to damowilk:

You will find that many walls 'ban' the practice to try to prevent folks hurtling across the room as they come off an overhanging route.

In reply to damowilk:

We occasionally end up choosing to top-rope on the unclipped end of the rope but almost without exception it's out of laziness in not wanting to pull most of a long rope through to tie in the other end. This is pretty rare in practice due to the risk of swinging, the risk of not being able to get back on again after a fall, and the awkwardness of climbing around a rope that's intent on getting in your way. There's almost never a different advantage other that convenience.

In reply to damowilk:

I suppose the question is if the second wants to top rope why didn't the leader clean the route on the way down? Normally if you leave the draws in it's for seconding while cleaning the route or for the second to lead the route with the draws in the place.

(as others said I don't see any safety issues here)

In reply to springfall2008:


Some possible reasons spring to mind (spur of the moment decisions, not planned ahead):
The route is difficult for the seconder, who may not achieve a clean ascent if they also have to unclip the rope.
The seconder is nervous, and wants a snug rope throughout.
The rope is long compared to the route length, and the climbers can't be bothered to pull it through.

In reply to bpmclimb:

That's a reason not to do it.
When the leader has lowered off, that's the end that is on the floor - all the slack is on the lead belayer's side, which is the side the OP is talking about the second climber tying in.

In reply to deepsoup:

Ah yes, of course ... sheepish

In reply to bpmclimb:
No. You were absolutely right. I'm the one who has it backwards... sheepish x 2