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As I GoPro most of my routes I lead, it's fair to say, that N.M.C. Crack (HVD 4a) Gets about 6a and is actually a bit spicier than Frison-Roche (TD- 6a)
And Hollybush Crack (VD) gets about 5c with It's crux being not far off Voie Bleue (5c)
I don't think it's funny having such a huge disparity in grades for humours sake and character building.
The only reason why Flying Buttress (HVD 4a) is so highly rated is because people are happy to be alive after the horror. And the mantle to finish, is like topping out on a sport climb that you shouldn't be topping out on. Thinking something horrible Like topping out on RAWDEAL 7a. #GritCreton
Post edited at 17:50
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In reply to zimpara:
To anyone reading this: Please, please do not reply to this garbage. I beg you.
To anyone reading this: Please, please do not reply to this garbage. I beg you.
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In reply to Valkyrie1968:
I think he's right though because using his grades, I'm climbing routes worthy of the front page of this fine forum.
I think he's right though because using his grades, I'm climbing routes worthy of the front page of this fine forum.
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In reply to Alex Riley:
I'd much rather have none gritstoney soup if possible!
Zimpara, if you think Peak District grit's hard don't bother going to Northumberland, that will kick your backside!
I'd much rather have none gritstoney soup if possible!
Zimpara, if you think Peak District grit's hard don't bother going to Northumberland, that will kick your backside!
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In reply to Valkyrie1968:
Yes but tell me I am wrong about those routes being sandbagged as hell first!
Yes but tell me I am wrong about those routes being sandbagged as hell first!
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In reply to zimpara:
Just accept you're shite at it...? If you're seriously worried about the difficulty differences of these lower grade climbs, but have led 7a, I would suggest you're just a massive wuss.
Oh, and probably stop admitting you wear your GoPro on every climb you do.
Just accept you're shite at it...? If you're seriously worried about the difficulty differences of these lower grade climbs, but have led 7a, I would suggest you're just a massive wuss.
Oh, and probably stop admitting you wear your GoPro on every climb you do.
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In reply to zimpara:
You are wrong :P
(and I don't even like grit, but learning to climb indoors at a centre with super grippy walls, and loving the slab, means that easy grit is fine) :P
VS on grit feels much the same as VS on anything else to me, +/- a grade (as always happens on anything).
It is OK to not be very good at stuff, including different rock types! I for example despise limestone with a deep-seated passion unless it is either below the high tide line or underground.
Also your first example, N.M.C. Crack, is given mid-HVD, possibly high HVD by the voting, which usually tends to upgrade rather than downgrade. Similarly for the other route. 6a is just ridiculous :P
Perhaps you need to learn not how to try hard, but how to try easy? Learn how to rest, how to chill, how to not overgrip, how to jam in a knee and shout 'hands-free rest' (you get points for every one, after all)...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
You are wrong :P
(and I don't even like grit, but learning to climb indoors at a centre with super grippy walls, and loving the slab, means that easy grit is fine) :P
VS on grit feels much the same as VS on anything else to me, +/- a grade (as always happens on anything).
It is OK to not be very good at stuff, including different rock types! I for example despise limestone with a deep-seated passion unless it is either below the high tide line or underground.
Also your first example, N.M.C. Crack, is given mid-HVD, possibly high HVD by the voting, which usually tends to upgrade rather than downgrade. Similarly for the other route. 6a is just ridiculous :P
Perhaps you need to learn not how to try hard, but how to try easy? Learn how to rest, how to chill, how to not overgrip, how to jam in a knee and shout 'hands-free rest' (you get points for every one, after all)...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Post edited at 19:05
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In reply to zimpara:
Hard, adverb, 'done with a great deal of effort'
Very, adverb, 'used for emphasis'
Difficult, adjective, 'requiring much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand'
System works great as far as I can see.
> Yes but tell me I am wrong about those routes being sandbagged as hell first!
Hard, adverb, 'done with a great deal of effort'
Very, adverb, 'used for emphasis'
Difficult, adjective, 'requiring much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand'
System works great as far as I can see.
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
How can I? There isn't a ticklist of Grit Mods and diffs now is there...
Andrewmc, seriously though, NMC is a fucking beast! My second fell off it... Twice!!!
> Does it matter?
> Forget about the grade, just go and enjoy yourself.
How can I? There isn't a ticklist of Grit Mods and diffs now is there...
Andrewmc, seriously though, NMC is a fucking beast! My second fell off it... Twice!!!
Post edited at 19:45
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In reply to Valkyrie1968:
We see the question "What's he ever done on Grit?" banded about on here.
Not a lot in this case!
We see the question "What's he ever done on Grit?" banded about on here.
Not a lot in this case!
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In reply to zimpara:
It's a long time since I did the Frisson Roche (over 10yrs) but I seem to remember quite a stiff move on the first pitch. It was no walk over.
The routes at Stanage aren't that hard (I can't comment on NMC crack as if I have climbed it, I can't remember). I would suggest finding someone who can climb grit well and getting them to show you where you are going wrong. The rest of your logbook is quite out of kilter with your grit experiences. You might have to ditch the Go Pro though (I struggle to think of duller footage then a a quarter of an hour of head cam footage on a VDiff)
It's a long time since I did the Frisson Roche (over 10yrs) but I seem to remember quite a stiff move on the first pitch. It was no walk over.
The routes at Stanage aren't that hard (I can't comment on NMC crack as if I have climbed it, I can't remember). I would suggest finding someone who can climb grit well and getting them to show you where you are going wrong. The rest of your logbook is quite out of kilter with your grit experiences. You might have to ditch the Go Pro though (I struggle to think of duller footage then a a quarter of an hour of head cam footage on a VDiff)
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In reply to galpinos:
Or 40 minutes of footage for a HVD on grit... lol Always appreciate your responses. You make a good point.
Or 40 minutes of footage for a HVD on grit... lol Always appreciate your responses. You make a good point.
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In reply to zimpara:
I think I may have found why you are struggling - you need to learn to climb a bit faster?
Chris
> Or 40 minutes of footage for a HVD on grit... lol
I think I may have found why you are struggling - you need to learn to climb a bit faster?
Chris
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In reply to zimpara:
If you want a tricky hardvdiff can I suggest Verandah Buttress (HVD 5b) it should keep you entertained for hours, the gopro footage should be good.
If you want a tricky hardvdiff can I suggest Verandah Buttress (HVD 5b) it should keep you entertained for hours, the gopro footage should be good.
Post edited at 20:54
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In reply to zimpara:
> As I GoPro most of my routes I lead, it's fair to say, that N.M.C. Crack (HVD 4a) Gets about 6a and is actually a bit spicier than Frison-Roche (TD- 6a)
> I don't think it's funny having such a huge disparity in grades for humours sake and character building.
> The only reason why Flying Buttress (HVD 4a) is so highly rated is because people are happy to be alive after the horror. And the mantle to finish, is like topping out on a sport climb that you shouldn't be topping out on. Thinking something horrible Like topping out on RAWDEAL 7a. #GritCreton
Is it not more like a steep loft ladder. Have you considered climbing may not be the out door activity for you, maybe you should try Crown green bowling.
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In reply to zimpara:
Hahaha true. Perhaps just rope up for the walk in?
Perhaps top rope a few routes till you get used to the different style? Or maybe do some bouldering on grit? It's a subtle style but you'll get the hang of it.
Your OP is nipping in late to grab troll of the year 2016 IMO. It made me laugh and has racked up an impressive 26 dislikes already, lighten up people!
Hahaha true. Perhaps just rope up for the walk in?
Perhaps top rope a few routes till you get used to the different style? Or maybe do some bouldering on grit? It's a subtle style but you'll get the hang of it.
Your OP is nipping in late to grab troll of the year 2016 IMO. It made me laugh and has racked up an impressive 26 dislikes already, lighten up people!
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In reply to zimpara:
That's a quality line. Top stuff.
Just keep plugging away at the grit. It's not like other rock but sooner or later you'll get the hang of it. Just takes lots of practice if you're not used to it.
> The only reason why Flying Buttress (HVD 4a) is so highly rated is because people are happy to be alive after the horror.
That's a quality line. Top stuff.
Just keep plugging away at the grit. It's not like other rock but sooner or later you'll get the hang of it. Just takes lots of practice if you're not used to it.
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In reply to stp:
Is that why people move to Sheffield? To practice?
> That's a quality line. Top stuff.
> Just keep plugging away at the grit. Just takes lots of practice if you're not used to it.
Is that why people move to Sheffield? To practice?
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In reply to zimpara:
FBD and Holly bush crack are straightforward v diff. I can say this with confidence, as I managed to climb them, and im rubbish....
FBD and Holly bush crack are straightforward v diff. I can say this with confidence, as I managed to climb them, and im rubbish....
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In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
So, what would a thread with Savaas and Zimpara go like?
My 2pence worth. If you're climbing anything without an E at the start and come across 6a climbing, you're off route. Simple.
If you have the ability to make 4c/5a moves into 6a moves every time you climb, best work on that route reading, or ignore silly eliminates.
So, what would a thread with Savaas and Zimpara go like?
My 2pence worth. If you're climbing anything without an E at the start and come across 6a climbing, you're off route. Simple.
If you have the ability to make 4c/5a moves into 6a moves every time you climb, best work on that route reading, or ignore silly eliminates.
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In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Nah mate, Flying buttress is bad. I spent 30 minutes underneath the final mantle thinking about how horrible it was going to be.
And then did it, and agreed that it was pretty horrible! lol
Nah mate, Flying buttress is bad. I spent 30 minutes underneath the final mantle thinking about how horrible it was going to be.
And then did it, and agreed that it was pretty horrible! lol
Post edited at 21:43
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In reply to zimpara:
Nah, it's for the Parks and Birds.
> Is that why people move to Sheffield? To practice?
Nah, it's for the Parks and Birds.
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In reply to zimpara:
Flying buttress is hard v diff. That means that it isn't easy. Familiarity with many rock types and a variety of different styles will help. Having said that it isn't 6a in a million years. I managed to follow a friend up it a couple of years ago. It was my first day climbing following a leg broken in five places and the insertion of quite a bit of metalwork. I enjoyed the climbing thoroughly and the other routes we did that day. I hadn't climbed at stanage pop since about 97 or so. I certainly remember the crutchy limp up there and back as being more difficult than any of the climbing.
James
Flying buttress is hard v diff. That means that it isn't easy. Familiarity with many rock types and a variety of different styles will help. Having said that it isn't 6a in a million years. I managed to follow a friend up it a couple of years ago. It was my first day climbing following a leg broken in five places and the insertion of quite a bit of metalwork. I enjoyed the climbing thoroughly and the other routes we did that day. I hadn't climbed at stanage pop since about 97 or so. I certainly remember the crutchy limp up there and back as being more difficult than any of the climbing.
James
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In reply to zimpara:
Yeah, sounds like you've been sandbagged indeed.
Try Crack and Corner (S 4b), you'll likely find that feels soft for the grade.
These things tend to balance out in the long run.
Yeah, sounds like you've been sandbagged indeed.
Try Crack and Corner (S 4b), you'll likely find that feels soft for the grade.
These things tend to balance out in the long run.
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In reply to zimpara:
Back when i did trad, I generally found Peak grit steady for the grade. Perhaps because it's cruxy and I mainly bouldered at the time.
Certain crags in Northumberland were much tougher (graded for solos by regulars, rather than for nervy newcomers trying to fiddle in wires).
I always found Peak lime felt like a hard way to earn a grade. A grit E2 would be one 5c move with 5m of rambling either side. The lime version would be a 5c crux in the middle of 30m of steepness with lots of solid 5a moves!
Back when i did trad, I generally found Peak grit steady for the grade. Perhaps because it's cruxy and I mainly bouldered at the time.
Certain crags in Northumberland were much tougher (graded for solos by regulars, rather than for nervy newcomers trying to fiddle in wires).
I always found Peak lime felt like a hard way to earn a grade. A grit E2 would be one 5c move with 5m of rambling either side. The lime version would be a 5c crux in the middle of 30m of steepness with lots of solid 5a moves!
Post edited at 22:35
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In reply to zimpara:
HVD is a grade to avoid, it should come with a health warning. It means this rouyte has traditionally been graded VD and since most guide book authors are opperating in the Es, they've heard it's a bit on the tough side, but can't really tell the difference between D and VS so...
It is a grade which should no longer be used, either give the route VD or S, a bit like MVS either give it HS or VS.
HVD is a grade to avoid, it should come with a health warning. It means this rouyte has traditionally been graded VD and since most guide book authors are opperating in the Es, they've heard it's a bit on the tough side, but can't really tell the difference between D and VS so...
It is a grade which should no longer be used, either give the route VD or S, a bit like MVS either give it HS or VS.
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In reply to zimpara:
Ever considered that these grades are not jokes and you are missing something? For starters climbing grit in the wet is not what it is graded for and if you lack technique a 4a move may well be harder than the crux on some overgraded F6 you have done. Climb with someone who knows the crags or hire a guide so you can learn.
Ever considered that these grades are not jokes and you are missing something? For starters climbing grit in the wet is not what it is graded for and if you lack technique a 4a move may well be harder than the crux on some overgraded F6 you have done. Climb with someone who knows the crags or hire a guide so you can learn.
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In reply to Mark Kemball:
> It is a grade which should no longer be used, either give the route VD or S
Or give it to routes that are a bit harder than vdiff and a bit easier than severe.
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In reply to zimpara:
Well yes, practice makes perfect.
> Is that why people move to Sheffield? To practice?
Well yes, practice makes perfect.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
But you could then be avoiding the delights of grooved arete and even ledge climb at bosigran. To avoid such joys would be terrible omissions in anyone's climbing career. Grade creep has plagued our crags for years. Awful business! Damn guidebook authors! In Zeke's notes for sennen he gives Africa route just severe and dexter the same with a note that it was no harder than demo!
James
But you could then be avoiding the delights of grooved arete and even ledge climb at bosigran. To avoid such joys would be terrible omissions in anyone's climbing career. Grade creep has plagued our crags for years. Awful business! Damn guidebook authors! In Zeke's notes for sennen he gives Africa route just severe and dexter the same with a note that it was no harder than demo!
James
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In reply to webbo:
Oi, some of them crowns can be a bit steep, you know...
> maybe you should try Crown green bowling.
Oi, some of them crowns can be a bit steep, you know...
In reply to zimpara:
I have a climbing partner who currently can happily lead VS or HVS on a good day and second E1 or more providing he is one limestone or Lakes volcanic rock where he has a good selection of edges to hang off. On gritstone he has to drop his grade and he doesn't enjoy climbing as much. Personally I like a good gritstone slab.
I have another friend who doesn't seem to like jamming. Watching him try to second a limestone HVS jamming crack by using only handholds he could crimp on rather than the really solid jams that were available was very amusing.
My advice would be do lots of bouldering, climb routes that inspire you, on a top rope if necessary and see what tips you can pick up from friends/friendly climbers at the crag. I learned a lot from a friend who was living local to the grit when I started climbing on it.
I have a climbing partner who currently can happily lead VS or HVS on a good day and second E1 or more providing he is one limestone or Lakes volcanic rock where he has a good selection of edges to hang off. On gritstone he has to drop his grade and he doesn't enjoy climbing as much. Personally I like a good gritstone slab.
I have another friend who doesn't seem to like jamming. Watching him try to second a limestone HVS jamming crack by using only handholds he could crimp on rather than the really solid jams that were available was very amusing.
My advice would be do lots of bouldering, climb routes that inspire you, on a top rope if necessary and see what tips you can pick up from friends/friendly climbers at the crag. I learned a lot from a friend who was living local to the grit when I started climbing on it.
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In reply to zimpara:
When you say go pro you mean a helmet mounted camera, or one of the early video cameras that were about a foot long, sat your shoulder and you held with one hand? Did you take a few spare batteries and tapes too? Maybe then HVD would feel like 6a.
> As I GoPro most of my routes I lead,
When you say go pro you mean a helmet mounted camera, or one of the early video cameras that were about a foot long, sat your shoulder and you held with one hand? Did you take a few spare batteries and tapes too? Maybe then HVD would feel like 6a.
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In reply to Mark Kemball:
Hardly, stanage one of the UK' most popular crags, covered by countless guidebooks, endless editions and probably seen every climbing guidebook author climbing there at some point or other in the past 50 years. The chances of routes being 6 or 7 grades too low is zero.
HVD, if you decide with a rough consensus of people working on the book that a route is not quite S comparing it to others, but it certainly seems little tougher than many Stanage VDiffs, what grade does it get? The older grade of Mild or Hard, were a very good way of telling how hard a route might be in the absence of technical grades.
The grades you should be wary of are the old Scottish ones like VS, use a old guidebook for nostalgia purposes with caution.
> HVD is a grade to avoid, it should come with a health warning. It means this rouyte has traditionally been graded VD and since most guide book authors are opperating in the Es, they've heard it's a bit on the tough side, but can't really tell the difference between D and VS so...
> It is a grade which should no longer be used, either give the route VD or S, a bit like MVS either give it HS or VS.
> It is a grade which should no longer be used, either give the route VD or S, a bit like MVS either give it HS or VS.
Hardly, stanage one of the UK' most popular crags, covered by countless guidebooks, endless editions and probably seen every climbing guidebook author climbing there at some point or other in the past 50 years. The chances of routes being 6 or 7 grades too low is zero.
HVD, if you decide with a rough consensus of people working on the book that a route is not quite S comparing it to others, but it certainly seems little tougher than many Stanage VDiffs, what grade does it get? The older grade of Mild or Hard, were a very good way of telling how hard a route might be in the absence of technical grades.
The grades you should be wary of are the old Scottish ones like VS, use a old guidebook for nostalgia purposes with caution.
Post edited at 07:49
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In reply to summo:
I just looked in my logbook and it seems I've done about 35 HVDs on grit, mostly on my own and onsight. I climb a lot around that grade but find Sev, HVD, VDiff and even some times Diff quite tricky to really tell apart. Tricky thing grading!
I just looked in my logbook and it seems I've done about 35 HVDs on grit, mostly on my own and onsight. I climb a lot around that grade but find Sev, HVD, VDiff and even some times Diff quite tricky to really tell apart. Tricky thing grading!
In reply to zimpara:
Well certainly not the sole reason but that raises an interesting point. If you live close to grit crags and can go out regularly, evenings and weekends, your familiarity is going to be so much greater than for someone who treks across the country for the odd weekend a few times a year. For the latter I can well imagine grit is always going to seem really tough. It's a more idiosyncratic kind of climbing than almost any other and thus harder to gain the techniques required from other climbing areas.
> Is that why people move to Sheffield? To practice?
Well certainly not the sole reason but that raises an interesting point. If you live close to grit crags and can go out regularly, evenings and weekends, your familiarity is going to be so much greater than for someone who treks across the country for the odd weekend a few times a year. For the latter I can well imagine grit is always going to seem really tough. It's a more idiosyncratic kind of climbing than almost any other and thus harder to gain the techniques required from other climbing areas.
In reply to zimpara:
There is big difference between indoor and grit. Grit requires a far wider range of skillsets and techniques.
If you want to get better at climbing on grit, do more climbing on grit. Lots more.
There is big difference between indoor and grit. Grit requires a far wider range of skillsets and techniques.
If you want to get better at climbing on grit, do more climbing on grit. Lots more.
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In reply to zimpara:
Sounds like you've been chosing too many overgraded sport routes and you need to re-calibrate what grades really feel like.
Sounds like you've been chosing too many overgraded sport routes and you need to re-calibrate what grades really feel like.
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In reply to zimpara:
Frankly I'm astounded that you've managed Frison-Roche and other assorted E1s and E2s and can possibly think N.M.C Crack and Flying Buttress are any harder than UK 4a (About French 4c ish?).
Horses for courses, though.
> As I GoPro most of my routes I lead, it's fair to say, that N.M.C. Crack (HVD 4a) Gets about 6a and is actually a bit spicier than Frison-Roche (TD- 6a)
Frankly I'm astounded that you've managed Frison-Roche and other assorted E1s and E2s and can possibly think N.M.C Crack and Flying Buttress are any harder than UK 4a (About French 4c ish?).
Horses for courses, though.
7
In reply to zimpara:
To me Frison-Roche felt about HVS/E1 when I did it, although I didn't lead the crux pitch. I also find VDiffs and HardVDiffs to be useless grades quite often. By that I mean they don't actually tell you how hard climbing is going to be. It could be a path or it could be desperate. And not just on gritstone. Try Bowfell Buttress VDiff!
To me Frison-Roche felt about HVS/E1 when I did it, although I didn't lead the crux pitch. I also find VDiffs and HardVDiffs to be useless grades quite often. By that I mean they don't actually tell you how hard climbing is going to be. It could be a path or it could be desperate. And not just on gritstone. Try Bowfell Buttress VDiff!
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In reply to zimpara:
I climbed it in a heavy snow shower and that's pretty much all I can remember about it and doubtless the only reason I remember it at all. Are you sure you were on the right route? Easy-grit doesn't get much friendlier than squeaky clean Stanage ledge shuffling. I'd have more sympathy were it all traditional wide cracks dripping their winter green that you were struggling with but as is, I can barely imagine what it is you're doing so wrong.
Oh and please do share the film so we can end 2016 with a chuckle
jk
> Nah mate, Flying buttress is bad. I spent 30 minutes underneath the final mantle thinking about how horrible it was going to be.
I climbed it in a heavy snow shower and that's pretty much all I can remember about it and doubtless the only reason I remember it at all. Are you sure you were on the right route? Easy-grit doesn't get much friendlier than squeaky clean Stanage ledge shuffling. I'd have more sympathy were it all traditional wide cracks dripping their winter green that you were struggling with but as is, I can barely imagine what it is you're doing so wrong.
Oh and please do share the film so we can end 2016 with a chuckle
jk
Post edited at 10:41
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In reply to zimpara:
Isn't this essentially just a rehash of last week's thread bemoaning your struggles on grit?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=655003
As such I refer you to my previous reply:
To moan about struggling with grit after a mere 2 visits to the Peak does rather smack of impatience, and obscenities won't persuade the rock to be any more sympathetic!
(Ok, you refrained from the obscenities this time)
...Like you I've only managed two Peak Trips (2 days on the Roaches 6 years ago and 2 days at Stanage last Summer), When it comes to multi day trips I'm usually more seduced by the mountains or sea cliffs, but I did enjoy getting to grips with Stanage back in August (not as much as the midges enjoyed getting to grips with me though).
My perception was that some routes require a different skill set (from my usual Limestone haunts) and others seem not entirely alien, embracing the learning experience was definitely rewarding. I didn't find my usual lead grade dipped too much, but Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) felt like a real crash course in Grit technique - wonderfully intense, really required concentration and problem solving (placing gear, using slopers, horizontal hand jamming, maintaining balance and composure) - felt so much longer than 18m and I topped out having really learnt something. I will return next year to continue my apprenticeship.
Isn't this essentially just a rehash of last week's thread bemoaning your struggles on grit?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=655003
As such I refer you to my previous reply:
To moan about struggling with grit after a mere 2 visits to the Peak does rather smack of impatience, and obscenities won't persuade the rock to be any more sympathetic!
(Ok, you refrained from the obscenities this time)
...Like you I've only managed two Peak Trips (2 days on the Roaches 6 years ago and 2 days at Stanage last Summer), When it comes to multi day trips I'm usually more seduced by the mountains or sea cliffs, but I did enjoy getting to grips with Stanage back in August (not as much as the midges enjoyed getting to grips with me though).
My perception was that some routes require a different skill set (from my usual Limestone haunts) and others seem not entirely alien, embracing the learning experience was definitely rewarding. I didn't find my usual lead grade dipped too much, but Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) felt like a real crash course in Grit technique - wonderfully intense, really required concentration and problem solving (placing gear, using slopers, horizontal hand jamming, maintaining balance and composure) - felt so much longer than 18m and I topped out having really learnt something. I will return next year to continue my apprenticeship.
10
In reply to zimpara:
I am also an infrequent visitor to the grit and am coming to understand that it is knacky and requires a patient approach. Haven't done much leading on it (couple of HS and HVSs) but fair bit of bouldering. I often find that by the time I find the knack for doing a problem I am thin on finger skin!
Can be quite frustrating climbing with locals as even if you think you are doing the same thing, there are subtleties to the body position and movement that they have honed and you don't know about. Definitely a rock type that repays being good at climbing as well as strong. Oh and having a high tolerance for suffering.
If I was you I wouldn't use Raw Deal as a benchmark for what F7a feels like. It probably is F7a, but it's more like a bolted V3 boulder problem (12 hand moves I think), and the holds on it are pretty obvious so it's more accessible to indoor climbers than most other routes at a comparable grade.
I am also an infrequent visitor to the grit and am coming to understand that it is knacky and requires a patient approach. Haven't done much leading on it (couple of HS and HVSs) but fair bit of bouldering. I often find that by the time I find the knack for doing a problem I am thin on finger skin!
Can be quite frustrating climbing with locals as even if you think you are doing the same thing, there are subtleties to the body position and movement that they have honed and you don't know about. Definitely a rock type that repays being good at climbing as well as strong. Oh and having a high tolerance for suffering.
If I was you I wouldn't use Raw Deal as a benchmark for what F7a feels like. It probably is F7a, but it's more like a bolted V3 boulder problem (12 hand moves I think), and the holds on it are pretty obvious so it's more accessible to indoor climbers than most other routes at a comparable grade.
2
In reply to zimpara:
Grituious swearing?
> Andrewmc, seriously though, NMC is a f*cking beast! My second fell off it... Twice!!!
Grituious swearing?
Post edited at 11:46
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In reply to RockSteady:
Are you sure you mean V3 (and not indoor wall V3)? That sounds pretty technical for a sof touch F7a.
Are you sure you mean V3 (and not indoor wall V3)? That sounds pretty technical for a sof touch F7a.
In reply to zimpara:
As others have said, practice and keep practicing. I've done nearly all my climbing on grit but if I go away and climb on different rock types, even for just a week or two, it will kick my arse when I come back to it.
As others have said, practice and keep practicing. I've done nearly all my climbing on grit but if I go away and climb on different rock types, even for just a week or two, it will kick my arse when I come back to it.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Sounds about right to me.
There is, however, nothing technical about Raw Deal. just hauling up steep ground on buckets.
Sounds about right to me.
There is, however, nothing technical about Raw Deal. just hauling up steep ground on buckets.
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In reply to zimpara:
I don't know whether to be more impressed at Zimpara's commitment to being the best troll that UKC has ever seen, or the number of UKC users who are prepared to believe that these are anything but the postings of a caricature.
I don't know whether to be more impressed at Zimpara's commitment to being the best troll that UKC has ever seen, or the number of UKC users who are prepared to believe that these are anything but the postings of a caricature.
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In reply to La benya:
Im surprised. I always trusted Shark's old table:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=12503.0
He indicates a low technicality V3 style route might be sports F7b. Obviously if the route was a soft touch F7a (ie really 6cish) the V grade crux might only be hard V1.
Im surprised. I always trusted Shark's old table:
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=12503.0
He indicates a low technicality V3 style route might be sports F7b. Obviously if the route was a soft touch F7a (ie really 6cish) the V grade crux might only be hard V1.
Post edited at 13:14
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In reply to Offwidth: a cruxy one move wonder 7a might have a V3 sequence, things like some of the routes on Embankment or PennTrwyn upper. Agree it's pushing it a bit though. There's always a bit of macho false modesty in those grade tables I reckon.
1
In reply to Offwidth:
Hmmm. Normally I would agree, but the route in questions is literally a boulder problem with a rope. It's maybe 6 metres high, maybe 7. So there isn't a crux, neither is it sustained.
*Edit*
I've just read the link. Sharks table suggests V3 to be top end, but ok. This is probably why Raw deal still gets 7a, despite alot of people thinking its easy. If you cant boulder V3 you aint going to do it. I thought it was a V2/3 boulder or 6b+ route when i did it... apparently that's weird
6a English 5a-5b
6a+ English 5b
6b English 5b-5c
6b+ English 5b-5c
6c English 5c - 6a or V1
6c+ English 5c–6a or V1-V2
7a English 6a-6a/b or V2-V3
7a+ V2-V3
7b V3-V4
7b+ V4-V5 or Font 6b+ to 6c
7c V4-V5 or Font 6b+ to 6c
7c+ Font 6c+ to 7a
8a Font 6c+ to 7a
8a+ Font 7a+ to 7b
8b Font 7b to 7b+
Hmmm. Normally I would agree, but the route in questions is literally a boulder problem with a rope. It's maybe 6 metres high, maybe 7. So there isn't a crux, neither is it sustained.
*Edit*
I've just read the link. Sharks table suggests V3 to be top end, but ok. This is probably why Raw deal still gets 7a, despite alot of people thinking its easy. If you cant boulder V3 you aint going to do it. I thought it was a V2/3 boulder or 6b+ route when i did it... apparently that's weird
6a English 5a-5b
6a+ English 5b
6b English 5b-5c
6b+ English 5b-5c
6c English 5c - 6a or V1
6c+ English 5c–6a or V1-V2
7a English 6a-6a/b or V2-V3
7a+ V2-V3
7b V3-V4
7b+ V4-V5 or Font 6b+ to 6c
7c V4-V5 or Font 6b+ to 6c
7c+ Font 6c+ to 7a
8a Font 6c+ to 7a
8a+ Font 7a+ to 7b
8b Font 7b to 7b+
Post edited at 13:41
In reply to La benya:
Aha! I can see how HVD gets dumbed down to sandbag status if a soft 7a is just hauling up on buckets.
> There is, however, nothing technical about Raw Deal. just hauling up steep ground on buckets.
Aha! I can see how HVD gets dumbed down to sandbag status if a soft 7a is just hauling up on buckets.
In reply to La benya:
Fixed for you.
> Just accept you're shite?
Fixed for you.
> Oh, and probably stop admitting you wear your GoPro on every climb you do.
https://twitter.com/PunterWatchUK?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7C...
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In reply to zimpara:
Welcome back and thank you
The forums had got a bit dull over the last couple of weeks
Keep them coming
Welcome back and thank you
The forums had got a bit dull over the last couple of weeks
Keep them coming
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In reply to JohnBson:
We should send Our boy out with the 1969 edition, he'll have a nervous bloody breakdown
> Wait until you do HVD on Yorkshire Grit. HVS is easier.
We should send Our boy out with the 1969 edition, he'll have a nervous bloody breakdown
Post edited at 14:52
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In reply to JohnBson:
You might be a bit out of date. Things are not much harder in the current guides than say on Peak Moorland Grit and according to locals are much softer than current N. Yorks stuff. Quite a few of the BMC volunteer team, like myself, did some work on the YMC guides so we know our onions. There has never been an HVD or below in the current YMC guide that felt more than a grade out on onsight and I've done most of them. Grades are more conditions dependant and the protection can be trickier on Yorkshire grit.....unlike the Peak there are plenty of bold YMC VS grit climbs I considered too serious for an onsight... thats rare for me. In the context of this thread I do agree its ironic that the Peak BMC Stanage has the softest grades of any grit guide.
You might be a bit out of date. Things are not much harder in the current guides than say on Peak Moorland Grit and according to locals are much softer than current N. Yorks stuff. Quite a few of the BMC volunteer team, like myself, did some work on the YMC guides so we know our onions. There has never been an HVD or below in the current YMC guide that felt more than a grade out on onsight and I've done most of them. Grades are more conditions dependant and the protection can be trickier on Yorkshire grit.....unlike the Peak there are plenty of bold YMC VS grit climbs I considered too serious for an onsight... thats rare for me. In the context of this thread I do agree its ironic that the Peak BMC Stanage has the softest grades of any grit guide.
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In reply to zimpara:
You could always try dry tooling on gritstone, and take a drill in case you need to put a bolt in
You could always try dry tooling on gritstone, and take a drill in case you need to put a bolt in
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In reply to Woolly:
Think bolting it is a bit far, perhaps a piton or a bulldog maybe added to the rack
Think bolting it is a bit far, perhaps a piton or a bulldog maybe added to the rack
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In reply to zimpara
And the mantle to finish...
Why on earth did you mantle?! Please post the go-slo footage of you NOT using the huge fluted jug holds at the top!!!
And the mantle to finish...
Why on earth did you mantle?! Please post the go-slo footage of you NOT using the huge fluted jug holds at the top!!!
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In reply to Offwidth:
I would agree. Some HVD routes are fairly serious, this would often be reduced by a size 6 cam to be fair. It often seems as though the routes were graded in times prior to modern protection and the climbing suited the style of the day. I'd say I've climbed easier VS at stanage than HVD at crookrise
I would agree. Some HVD routes are fairly serious, this would often be reduced by a size 6 cam to be fair. It often seems as though the routes were graded in times prior to modern protection and the climbing suited the style of the day. I'd say I've climbed easier VS at stanage than HVD at crookrise
In reply to zimpara:
HVD - (H)ard when (V)ery (D)runk.
Seriously wouldn't say its more than a 4+ on bolts.
Don't get too psyched out by grit. Always feels hard if unfamiliar.
Top marks for comedy thread, whether intended or not.
HVD - (H)ard when (V)ery (D)runk.
Seriously wouldn't say its more than a 4+ on bolts.
Don't get too psyched out by grit. Always feels hard if unfamiliar.
Top marks for comedy thread, whether intended or not.
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In reply to zimpara:
Use a bulldog on gritstone and I bet it comes back to bite you on the ass.
> Think bolting it is a bit far, perhaps a piton or a bulldog maybe added to the rack
Use a bulldog on gritstone and I bet it comes back to bite you on the ass.
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In reply to zimpara:
We have a winner! It seems you just need to be able to read the guide-
"...climbed rightwards to a large ledge and a fine finish on monster jugs"
We have a winner! It seems you just need to be able to read the guide-
"...climbed rightwards to a large ledge and a fine finish on monster jugs"
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In reply to JohnBson:
Crookrise-where the approach to the start of the climbs are graded.
> I would agree. Some HVD routes are fairly serious, this would often be reduced by a size 6 cam to be fair. It often seems as though the routes were graded in times prior to modern protection and the climbing suited the style of the day. I'd say I've climbed easier VS at stanage than HVD at crookrise
Crookrise-where the approach to the start of the climbs are graded.
In reply to JohnBson:
I did have to think about Purgatory Chimney at Widdop, although that's given S 4a now (I'd say a top end S 4b P2 if you stay on the outside at the top). A few of those easy classic VS Stanage lines (like Inverted V) were always contenders for top end HS 4b/c. Inverted V is approaching mid-grade VS according to UKC votes... I shudder to think what those voting above mid grade would make of top end YMC VS.
I did have to think about Purgatory Chimney at Widdop, although that's given S 4a now (I'd say a top end S 4b P2 if you stay on the outside at the top). A few of those easy classic VS Stanage lines (like Inverted V) were always contenders for top end HS 4b/c. Inverted V is approaching mid-grade VS according to UKC votes... I shudder to think what those voting above mid grade would make of top end YMC VS.
Post edited at 12:21
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In reply to zimpara:
One of my early HVDs was Diamond Crack (HS 4b) (now more sensibly graded) this has left me very suspicious of the grade.
One of my early HVDs was Diamond Crack (HS 4b) (now more sensibly graded) this has left me very suspicious of the grade.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
This was my first ever lead on my first days climbing, in training shoes in 1972. Fortunately I didn't fall off!
> One of my early HVDs was Diamond Crack (HS 4b) (now more sensibly graded) this has left me very suspicious of the grade.
This was my first ever lead on my first days climbing, in training shoes in 1972. Fortunately I didn't fall off!
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Not only was Grammarian's Progress (VS 4c) once HVD, it was in the guidebook list as the benchmark route for that grade! Even now it's been corrected it's still at the top end of the grade.
Not only was Grammarian's Progress (VS 4c) once HVD, it was in the guidebook list as the benchmark route for that grade! Even now it's been corrected it's still at the top end of the grade.
In reply to RockSteady:
I really like the word "knacky" - in the sense of something which requires a particular knack. Google it and you find that it can mean almost anything (or nothing). I don't know if it's a real word, officially - but who cares?
> I am also an infrequent visitor to the grit and am coming to understand that it is knacky
I really like the word "knacky" - in the sense of something which requires a particular knack. Google it and you find that it can mean almost anything (or nothing). I don't know if it's a real word, officially - but who cares?
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Still undergraded even at HS imho.
> One of my early HVDs was Diamond Crack (HS 4b) (now more sensibly graded) this has left me very suspicious of the grade.
Still undergraded even at HS imho.
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In reply to Pedro50:
Did you side step the crux on this one too?
> This was my first ever lead on my first days climbing, in training shoes in 1972. Fortunately I didn't fall off!
Did you side step the crux on this one too?
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In reply to Kirill:
Which begs the question - is there really such a grade as HVD at all? Why can't we just decide what it actually is, in the context of a sensible, modern, incremental grading system? VD, S, sometimes HS, whatever. Same with the (non-grade) MS.
> Still undergraded even at HS imho.
Which begs the question - is there really such a grade as HVD at all? Why can't we just decide what it actually is, in the context of a sensible, modern, incremental grading system? VD, S, sometimes HS, whatever. Same with the (non-grade) MS.
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In reply to Kirill:
This is a joke, right? Jamming didn't come as naturally as finger cracks, but even so....
This is a joke, right? Jamming didn't come as naturally as finger cracks, but even so....
Post edited at 17:10
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In reply to Mark Kemball:
I think I failed to second that on my first ever trip to Froggatt and averted my eyes every time I went back there - never even tried it again, but I remember how horrible it was. And if it was polished in the 80s, I dread to think what it's like now
> One of my early HVDs was Diamond Crack (HS 4b) (now more sensibly graded) this has left me very suspicious of the grade.
I think I failed to second that on my first ever trip to Froggatt and averted my eyes every time I went back there - never even tried it again, but I remember how horrible it was. And if it was polished in the 80s, I dread to think what it's like now
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Its fine: nothing like the hardest HS on the edge; only 15% of UKC logbook votes for VS. It was a beast at HVD as pointed out.
Its fine: nothing like the hardest HS on the edge; only 15% of UKC logbook votes for VS. It was a beast at HVD as pointed out.
Post edited at 17:50
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I can't believe you got this through the UKC scrutiny committee
> FBD and Holly bush crack are straightforward v diff. I can say this with confidence, as I managed to climb them, and im rubbish....
I can't believe you got this through the UKC scrutiny committee
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In reply to zimpara: I hope the original post is tongue in cheek but we seem to be having a right load of wussiness on this thread. I'm only a punter, but for goodness sake...
NMC Crack - straightforward at VD - go one or 2 cracks leftwards for worse struggles at their grades.
Hollybush Crack - about as straightforward for VD as it gets at Stanage - ok there's a bit of a pull with polish low down, but just man/woman up and get on with it.
Flying Buttress - aren't the jugs over the top big enough?
Grammarian's Progress - has this really gone up to VS? Maybe undergraded when it was HVD but if you think this is hard for grit VS then there are a few surprises for you out there.
And finally...
Diamond Crack - I know it's steep and polished but there's plenty of gear and it's nowhere near VS.
Grumpy old man's rant over - have a nice time over the festive season
NMC Crack - straightforward at VD - go one or 2 cracks leftwards for worse struggles at their grades.
Hollybush Crack - about as straightforward for VD as it gets at Stanage - ok there's a bit of a pull with polish low down, but just man/woman up and get on with it.
Flying Buttress - aren't the jugs over the top big enough?
Grammarian's Progress - has this really gone up to VS? Maybe undergraded when it was HVD but if you think this is hard for grit VS then there are a few surprises for you out there.
And finally...
Diamond Crack - I know it's steep and polished but there's plenty of gear and it's nowhere near VS.
Grumpy old man's rant over - have a nice time over the festive season
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In reply to Michael Hood:
It's the combination of hard and bold - if you fluff the 4c mantel then you're facing a big ground fall. I've still not led it, but have twice got to the top after starting to lead but wussing out and calling for a top rope from the crux.
Bachelor's Buttress at the Roaches was a similar sort of move, but you probably wouldn't hit the ground if you fluff it, and that's given HVS 4c (mind you my notes for that one say "probably the most terrified I've been on a route"!).
I agree about NMC Crack though. The first time I led it I faffed on the ledge for over an hour and only got to the top because my belayer had a train to catch. But that was before I'd worked out how to jam, and since then I've soloed it
> Grammarian's Progress - has this really gone up to VS? Maybe undergraded when it was HVD but if you think this is hard for grit VS then there are a few surprises for you out there.
It's the combination of hard and bold - if you fluff the 4c mantel then you're facing a big ground fall. I've still not led it, but have twice got to the top after starting to lead but wussing out and calling for a top rope from the crux.
Bachelor's Buttress at the Roaches was a similar sort of move, but you probably wouldn't hit the ground if you fluff it, and that's given HVS 4c (mind you my notes for that one say "probably the most terrified I've been on a route"!).
I agree about NMC Crack though. The first time I led it I faffed on the ledge for over an hour and only got to the top because my belayer had a train to catch. But that was before I'd worked out how to jam, and since then I've soloed it
In reply to Simon Caldwell: I led Grammarian's in 2001 when it was given HS 4a and I noted that it was a bit tough for the grade (my 1983 guidebook gave it HVD but I knew about the upgrade to HS) but it didn't feel that bad.
Bachelor's at the Roaches on the other hand always felt very serious because you're a long way up for gritstone, the moves aren't on very positive holds and the gear's not that great (or even there when being soloed). It used to be a "classic" VS 4b frightener although I can appreciate that it's on both VS/HVS and 4b/c borderlines.
Bachelor's at the Roaches on the other hand always felt very serious because you're a long way up for gritstone, the moves aren't on very positive holds and the gear's not that great (or even there when being soloed). It used to be a "classic" VS 4b frightener although I can appreciate that it's on both VS/HVS and 4b/c borderlines.
In reply to Michael Hood:
If you mean than VS, I think its the next line and you are right, I do remember that being a bit of a fight for VS.
From what I remember NMC is solid jams all the way, I've soloed it a number of times which means I found it secure - I reckon Zimpy might need to work on his jamming.
> NMC Crack - straightforward at VD - go one or 2 cracks leftwards for worse struggles at their grades.
If you mean than VS, I think its the next line and you are right, I do remember that being a bit of a fight for VS.
From what I remember NMC is solid jams all the way, I've soloed it a number of times which means I found it secure - I reckon Zimpy might need to work on his jamming.
In reply to Michael Hood:
isn't the same true of Grammarian's? You traverse from the start and when you get to the crux are a long way off where you'd land. The only gear that would stop you hitting the ground is in a dodgy crack behind a moving flake.
It's entirely possible that it's not as serious as I remember because I'm a big wuss, but it's one of the very few VSs that I've backed off, and the only one that I've backed off more than once
> you're a long way up for gritstone, the moves aren't on very positive holds and the gear's not that great
isn't the same true of Grammarian's? You traverse from the start and when you get to the crux are a long way off where you'd land. The only gear that would stop you hitting the ground is in a dodgy crack behind a moving flake.
It's entirely possible that it's not as serious as I remember because I'm a big wuss, but it's one of the very few VSs that I've backed off, and the only one that I've backed off more than once
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Thanks for being so honest.
That Move off the ledge and then up the final crack, Is an English 4a move.... pwahaha
What a bunch of sand bagging bastards.
If it's graded for an onsight, with NO bouldering mat on the Ledge, then no way is that the correct grade.
> I agree about NMC Crack though. The first time I led it I faffed on the ledge for over an hour.
Thanks for being so honest.
That Move off the ledge and then up the final crack, Is an English 4a move.... pwahaha
What a bunch of sand bagging bastards.
If it's graded for an onsight, with NO bouldering mat on the Ledge, then no way is that the correct grade.
Post edited at 10:06
4
In reply to zimpara:
Why would you want a bouldering mat? There's a big crack that will take all the gear you need.
I don't think it's a 4a move either, a move doesn't need to be even slightly tricky for me to faff before making it It sounds like you may have the same problem, combined with an inability to jam
Why would you want a bouldering mat? There's a big crack that will take all the gear you need.
I don't think it's a 4a move either, a move doesn't need to be even slightly tricky for me to faff before making it It sounds like you may have the same problem, combined with an inability to jam
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In reply to zimpara:
I haven't done the route, but I note that it has hundreds of logged ascents on this site, enough to be statistically significant. Look at the graphs: pretty much a standard distribution around HVD, and very few dogged/dnf entries. That's a pretty strong indicator of the "actual" grade of the route. Faced with circumstantial evidence that strong, are you sure you want to stick to your confident assertion that it's a sandbag?
> What a bunch of sand bagging bastards.
> If it's graded for an onsight, with NO bouldering mat on the Ledge, then no way is that the correct grade.
I haven't done the route, but I note that it has hundreds of logged ascents on this site, enough to be statistically significant. Look at the graphs: pretty much a standard distribution around HVD, and very few dogged/dnf entries. That's a pretty strong indicator of the "actual" grade of the route. Faced with circumstantial evidence that strong, are you sure you want to stick to your confident assertion that it's a sandbag?
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In reply to bpmclimb:
The problem with grit cretons, is they will never speak of a route being hard, even to the subtle point of voting it sandbaggy.
Creton to belay: Neh, bout HVD is that.
Creton to himself: Phew, that was nasty
The problem with grit cretons, is they will never speak of a route being hard, even to the subtle point of voting it sandbaggy.
Creton to belay: Neh, bout HVD is that.
Creton to himself: Phew, that was nasty
Post edited at 11:07
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In reply to zimpara:
I have no memory of this route but I have it ticked in Paul Nunn (published 1975) at Diff 2c. ( He wasn't too hot on technical grades) No doubt I evaded the crux
I have no memory of this route but I have it ticked in Paul Nunn (published 1975) at Diff 2c. ( He wasn't too hot on technical grades) No doubt I evaded the crux
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In reply to zimpara:
Bouldering mats are bulky and quite heavy; no wonder you're finding these route hard if you normally lug one up to put on ledges.
> If it's graded for an onsight, with NO bouldering mat on the Ledge, then no way is that the correct grade.
Bouldering mats are bulky and quite heavy; no wonder you're finding these route hard if you normally lug one up to put on ledges.
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In reply to zimpara:
"The problem with grit cretons, is they will never speak of a route being hard"
Keep digging that hole and remember UKC preserves your comments for all time, as a neophyte gritstoner judging grades from climbing a few routes in poor conditions.
These grit classics get ascents from a very wide body of climbers most of whom won't be local specialists and you can read their freely made UKC comments. Modern grit grading hasn't been for experts for decades and a lot of careful work has been done to make grades more consitent for reasonable conditions and remove the old obscure exceptions (like Straight Ahead moving from Diff to VS) but that does mean people need to have 'enough' of the right technique. Also any climber has their own strengths and weaknesses so even techniques they have trained will still feel different for the same correct grades. Further, climbers with physiologies well away from the average won't experience grades in the same way (especially important for short climbers on reachy routes or thin handed climbers on fist jams). So I, as a lower-grade grit specialist, will fully acknowledge routes that require widish 3c jamming, like the top of NMC, could feel harder for numerous reasons: from climbing in bad conditions, to those who haven't bothered to learn to jam, through those who struggled with training for jamming, to those who have really small hands. We have to try and average out the effects of physiology (my feeling is the short still get a slightly raw deal) but if we grade for technical incompetance grades become meaningless. The flip side of this is grit aficionados (like specialists on any rock type) get some easier ticks for the grades. I happily solo large numbers of routes in a day just a few grades below my nomal onsight lead grade.
"The problem with grit cretons, is they will never speak of a route being hard"
Keep digging that hole and remember UKC preserves your comments for all time, as a neophyte gritstoner judging grades from climbing a few routes in poor conditions.
These grit classics get ascents from a very wide body of climbers most of whom won't be local specialists and you can read their freely made UKC comments. Modern grit grading hasn't been for experts for decades and a lot of careful work has been done to make grades more consitent for reasonable conditions and remove the old obscure exceptions (like Straight Ahead moving from Diff to VS) but that does mean people need to have 'enough' of the right technique. Also any climber has their own strengths and weaknesses so even techniques they have trained will still feel different for the same correct grades. Further, climbers with physiologies well away from the average won't experience grades in the same way (especially important for short climbers on reachy routes or thin handed climbers on fist jams). So I, as a lower-grade grit specialist, will fully acknowledge routes that require widish 3c jamming, like the top of NMC, could feel harder for numerous reasons: from climbing in bad conditions, to those who haven't bothered to learn to jam, through those who struggled with training for jamming, to those who have really small hands. We have to try and average out the effects of physiology (my feeling is the short still get a slightly raw deal) but if we grade for technical incompetance grades become meaningless. The flip side of this is grit aficionados (like specialists on any rock type) get some easier ticks for the grades. I happily solo large numbers of routes in a day just a few grades below my nomal onsight lead grade.
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In reply to Simon Caldwell: Maybe I'll have to go back and do Grammarian's again - I don't remember a loose flake but my memory's not perfect.
The long way up bit - what I meant about it being more serious is...
Grammarian's - broken legs look high probability; Bachelor's - death looks high probability
I'll also have to go and do NMC Crack again - I've done the Stanage "sandbags" recently and often enough to remember them well enough - although familiarity does mean I'm likely to undergrade them - but not by several grades.
Having said all that, I can see how many "easy" gritstone routes will cause problems for those whose experience is of climbing walls or rocktypes that are more like climbing walls.
The long way up bit - what I meant about it being more serious is...
Grammarian's - broken legs look high probability; Bachelor's - death looks high probability
I'll also have to go and do NMC Crack again - I've done the Stanage "sandbags" recently and often enough to remember them well enough - although familiarity does mean I'm likely to undergrade them - but not by several grades.
Having said all that, I can see how many "easy" gritstone routes will cause problems for those whose experience is of climbing walls or rocktypes that are more like climbing walls.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Absolutely.
Mick
> ...but if we grade for technical incompetence, grades become meaningless.
Absolutely.
Mick
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In reply to Michael Hood:
Grammarian's is tricky VS in my view (bold and potentially unreliable gear)... not so far off IMHO from Sunset Slab in grade terms (albeit a very different style). If you go back, do try the the variation that bridges all the way up between the two pillar aretes... a pretty unique but little known climb that deserves more attention. We gave it VS 4b* but it was tough so may be slightly harder but worth more stars... obviously desperate (full body bridge) if your legs don't reach. Like many of our unlisted routes on Offwidth, the Wharnciffe moderator hasn't updated the UKC logbook.,
offwidth.uptosummit.com/wharncliffe_woods.html
Grammarian's is tricky VS in my view (bold and potentially unreliable gear)... not so far off IMHO from Sunset Slab in grade terms (albeit a very different style). If you go back, do try the the variation that bridges all the way up between the two pillar aretes... a pretty unique but little known climb that deserves more attention. We gave it VS 4b* but it was tough so may be slightly harder but worth more stars... obviously desperate (full body bridge) if your legs don't reach. Like many of our unlisted routes on Offwidth, the Wharnciffe moderator hasn't updated the UKC logbook.,
offwidth.uptosummit.com/wharncliffe_woods.html
Post edited at 13:06
In reply to zimpara:
Zimpara to belay (and the climbing world at large): "that was never HVD. Bloody sandbaggers ruining my life again"
Zimpara to self: "that was never HVD. Bloody sandbaggers ruining my life again".
At least you can't be accused of inconsistency
> Creton to belay: Neh, bout HVD is that.
> Creton to himself: Phew, that was nasty
Zimpara to belay (and the climbing world at large): "that was never HVD. Bloody sandbaggers ruining my life again"
Zimpara to self: "that was never HVD. Bloody sandbaggers ruining my life again".
At least you can't be accused of inconsistency
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In reply to zimpara:
I'm very very confused https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretons although because I'm currently day dreaming of moving to Quebec, I'm also intrigued.
> The problem with grit cretons, is...
> Creton to belay...
> Creton to himself...
> Creton to belay...
> Creton to himself...
I'm very very confused https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretons although because I'm currently day dreaming of moving to Quebec, I'm also intrigued.
In reply to zimpara:
Are you seriously suggesting that NMC crack, Hollybush Crack and Flying Buttress are sandbags? Or am I missing a tongue in cheek element here? Hollybush Crack is one of the best V Diffs anyware despite being a single pitch. If it doesn't make you smile, I can't think what route would. FB has to be done despite the wear and tear and is still a pleasure. NMC is a lovely route possibly top of the grade, but not severe. Surely the issue must be a lack of mileage on grit? No amount of indoor climbing will help with rounded grit breaks and jamming cracks. Perhaps you are just laughing to yourself that you have managed to provoke a reaction? Some of your posts are a plain mystery to me, I could kinda see the skipping HVS grade thing, as HVS was a bit of a holding grade before the Extreme grade came to be. All seems a bit of a moot point if grit HVD feels so hard, even if it was damp. You come over as very keen, and that's refreshing. But come on........., be realistic about your experience and authority to make such comments.
Are you seriously suggesting that NMC crack, Hollybush Crack and Flying Buttress are sandbags? Or am I missing a tongue in cheek element here? Hollybush Crack is one of the best V Diffs anyware despite being a single pitch. If it doesn't make you smile, I can't think what route would. FB has to be done despite the wear and tear and is still a pleasure. NMC is a lovely route possibly top of the grade, but not severe. Surely the issue must be a lack of mileage on grit? No amount of indoor climbing will help with rounded grit breaks and jamming cracks. Perhaps you are just laughing to yourself that you have managed to provoke a reaction? Some of your posts are a plain mystery to me, I could kinda see the skipping HVS grade thing, as HVS was a bit of a holding grade before the Extreme grade came to be. All seems a bit of a moot point if grit HVD feels so hard, even if it was damp. You come over as very keen, and that's refreshing. But come on........., be realistic about your experience and authority to make such comments.
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In reply to Offwidth:
This thread is about FB and NMC, please try to keep the replies in remit of the original topic will you fella.
This thread is about FB and NMC, please try to keep the replies in remit of the original topic will you fella.
In reply to zimpara: you mean the classic beginners climbs?
Sure you were on the right route - any in situ scouts, student groups?
Sure you were on the right route - any in situ scouts, student groups?
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In reply to zimpara:
I don't know how many times I did FB at Stanage - probably about 10 -12 times over 40 years, and I remember always being rather underwhelmed by it. A fairly indifferent worn slab (the 'Question Mark'), not very good, no protection but quite easy. Then bomber gear at chest level for a one-move-wonder crux (pretty much bog standard for a v diff), and then the thing just fizzles out on gigantic jugs (not slab climbing at all), i.e. disappointingly easy, though on lovely rock. Two stars at most. Nothing like as good as Pedestal Route at the Roaches, for example.
I don't know how many times I did FB at Stanage - probably about 10 -12 times over 40 years, and I remember always being rather underwhelmed by it. A fairly indifferent worn slab (the 'Question Mark'), not very good, no protection but quite easy. Then bomber gear at chest level for a one-move-wonder crux (pretty much bog standard for a v diff), and then the thing just fizzles out on gigantic jugs (not slab climbing at all), i.e. disappointingly easy, though on lovely rock. Two stars at most. Nothing like as good as Pedestal Route at the Roaches, for example.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Very good!
I was under whelmed as well to be honest. And grateful to be alive.
Very good!
I was under whelmed as well to be honest. And grateful to be alive.
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In reply to zimpara:
I'm baffled by this 'epic' quality you've given it. It's a very safe climb, quite enjoyable, nothing very special though.
I'm baffled by this 'epic' quality you've given it. It's a very safe climb, quite enjoyable, nothing very special though.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
It's a good route, but I've no idea how it's ended up being the most popular route in the UK. There's better routes all over Stanage at the same grade. I suppose you often end up right under it when walking up from the car. Although it isn't the best, it definitely has a magnetism. I can't walk past it without climbing it. Rain or shine, climbing or just going for a walk I'll always have a quick run up it.
There's a HS to the right of it called Jitter Face, it only gets two stars but is a fantastic climb. Really quite bold for the grade and takes some real Grit savvyness with bold rockovers on sloping holds(I'd wait a while before you get on this Zimpara).
I'd recommend Robin Hoods Right Hand Buttress Direct. Dullest name on the crag but you can really get used to some different gritstone techniques with lots of lovely reassuring gear all over it.
> I'm baffled by this 'epic' quality you've given it. It's a very safe climb, quite enjoyable, nothing very special though.
It's a good route, but I've no idea how it's ended up being the most popular route in the UK. There's better routes all over Stanage at the same grade. I suppose you often end up right under it when walking up from the car. Although it isn't the best, it definitely has a magnetism. I can't walk past it without climbing it. Rain or shine, climbing or just going for a walk I'll always have a quick run up it.
There's a HS to the right of it called Jitter Face, it only gets two stars but is a fantastic climb. Really quite bold for the grade and takes some real Grit savvyness with bold rockovers on sloping holds(I'd wait a while before you get on this Zimpara).
I'd recommend Robin Hoods Right Hand Buttress Direct. Dullest name on the crag but you can really get used to some different gritstone techniques with lots of lovely reassuring gear all over it.
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In reply to deacondeacon:
Yes, Jitter Face is good and bold.
Yes, one of the best long climbs of it's standard on grit. A terrific line. Used to be one of my old favourites.
> It's a good route, but I've no idea how it's ended up being the most popular route in the UK. There's better routes all over Stanage at the same grade. I suppose you often end up right under it when walking up from the car. Although it isn't the best, it definitely has a magnetism. I can't walk past it without climbing it. Rain or shine, climbing or just going for a walk I'll always have a quick run up it.
> There's a HS to the right of it called Jitter Face, it only gets two stars but is a fantastic climb. Really quite bold for the grade and takes some real Grit savvyness with bold rockovers on sloping holds(I'd wait a while before you get on this Zimpara).
Yes, Jitter Face is good and bold.
> I'd recommend Robin Hoods Right Hand Buttress Direct. Dullest name on the crag but you can really get used to some different gritstone techniques with lots of lovely reassuring gear all over it.
Yes, one of the best long climbs of it's standard on grit. A terrific line. Used to be one of my old favourites.
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In reply to zimpara:
I'm keen for the footage. There seems to be less decent comedy on TV these days
I'm keen for the footage. There seems to be less decent comedy on TV these days
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In reply to zimpara:
I find it hard to believe someone who is apparently as keen as yourself, could be so crap. I always thought VDiffs were the things you followed your mates up in your shoes or trainers the first time you went climbing. Once you got some rock shoes you use them as the way down to keep your feet clean.
> Very good!
> I was under whelmed as well to be honest. And grateful to be alive.
I find it hard to believe someone who is apparently as keen as yourself, could be so crap. I always thought VDiffs were the things you followed your mates up in your shoes or trainers the first time you went climbing. Once you got some rock shoes you use them as the way down to keep your feet clean.
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In reply to webbo:
Hi There hero.
> I find it hard to believe someone who is apparently as keen as yourself, could be so crap. I always thought VDiffs were the things you followed your mates up in your shoes or trainers the first time you went climbing. Once you got some rock shoes you use them as the way down to keep your feet clean.
Hi There hero.
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In reply to dr_botnik:
Zimpy's youtube channel is an interesting place, but when I looked the other day now grit videos as yet.
Zimpy's youtube channel is an interesting place, but when I looked the other day now grit videos as yet.
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In reply to TobyA:
Thanks!
I just don't have the bandwidth to allow me to upload 40 minutes of HVD 4a and the number of jump cuts is embarrasing
> Zimpy's youtube channel is an interesting place.
Thanks!
I just don't have the bandwidth to allow me to upload 40 minutes of HVD 4a and the number of jump cuts is embarrasing
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In reply to zimpara:
It's a shame that you have received so many dislikes but let me say that I do support your view to a point. Having been brought up on Yorkshire grit, Shipley Glen from being 10, I recently went back after a break of a couple of decades and scared myself on some easy VDiffs that I previously used to run up and down. I had been climbing F6a in France and Spain and had just done some VS's in the Lakes the week before, that were no where near as scary. I realise now, after 58 years of grit climbing, that "natural" grit does take a while to get used to. It also requires a far higher level of confidence and good footwork than similar routes on volcanic rock or limestone. I don't think that grit VDiffs quite equate to UK 6a (unless you are at Almscliff) but I now have some sympathy with your views.
It's a shame that you have received so many dislikes but let me say that I do support your view to a point. Having been brought up on Yorkshire grit, Shipley Glen from being 10, I recently went back after a break of a couple of decades and scared myself on some easy VDiffs that I previously used to run up and down. I had been climbing F6a in France and Spain and had just done some VS's in the Lakes the week before, that were no where near as scary. I realise now, after 58 years of grit climbing, that "natural" grit does take a while to get used to. It also requires a far higher level of confidence and good footwork than similar routes on volcanic rock or limestone. I don't think that grit VDiffs quite equate to UK 6a (unless you are at Almscliff) but I now have some sympathy with your views.
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In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:
What VDiffs? The old VDiff lines nearly all get boulder grades in the latest YMC guide (often f3 or harder)
What VDiffs? The old VDiff lines nearly all get boulder grades in the latest YMC guide (often f3 or harder)
Post edited at 13:00
In reply to zimpara:
Just set it off uploading overnight, we can wait.
And don't worry about the editing, we don't mind.
We can all wake up tomorrow, log on, and say "Oooooo, look what Santa Zimp has brought us."
> I just don't have the bandwidth to allow me to upload 40 minutes of HVD 4a and the number of jump cuts is embarrasing
Just set it off uploading overnight, we can wait.
And don't worry about the editing, we don't mind.
We can all wake up tomorrow, log on, and say "Oooooo, look what Santa Zimp has brought us."
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In reply to zimpara:
Maybe your footage could be used to make a new version of Hard Grit. Hard Grit (the movie) exploring some of the hardest VDiffs in the Peak.
Maybe your footage could be used to make a new version of Hard Grit. Hard Grit (the movie) exploring some of the hardest VDiffs in the Peak.
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In reply to Lusk:
It is online now. Happy early christmas
> We can all wake up tomorrow, log on, and say "Oooooo, look what Santa Zimp has brought us."
It is online now. Happy early christmas
Post edited at 17:04
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In reply to Lusk:
I remember when my mum broke her leg, she had to crawl up and down the stairs, very slowly, whenever she needed to use the bathroom. I imagine 40 minutes of HVD would be rather similar.
> Just set it off uploading overnight, we can wait.
> And don't worry about the editing, we don't mind.
> We can all wake up tomorrow, log on, and say "Oooooo, look what Santa Zimp has brought us."
> And don't worry about the editing, we don't mind.
> We can all wake up tomorrow, log on, and say "Oooooo, look what Santa Zimp has brought us."
I remember when my mum broke her leg, she had to crawl up and down the stairs, very slowly, whenever she needed to use the bathroom. I imagine 40 minutes of HVD would be rather similar.
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In reply to zimpara:
turns out I have actually climbed Flying Buttress (and fairly recently) and apparently thought so little of it as to not make a logbook comment on it, or indeed remember I had climbed it :P
irritatingly it is very hard to find pictures as all you get on UKC initially are pictures of FBD. Here is one:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=172737
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=113309
what could possibly be difficult about that, provided you actually know how to stand on things?
After finding that picture, some of it is coming back to me now; I think I put some gear in the 'unprotected' slab, found the move around the corner easy but I could see how you could make a hash of it, and I don't really remember the top as I think I am confusing it with another Classic Rock tick.
I suspect you are fit and strong and rubbish when those two are of absolutely no use.
turns out I have actually climbed Flying Buttress (and fairly recently) and apparently thought so little of it as to not make a logbook comment on it, or indeed remember I had climbed it :P
irritatingly it is very hard to find pictures as all you get on UKC initially are pictures of FBD. Here is one:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=172737
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=113309
what could possibly be difficult about that, provided you actually know how to stand on things?
After finding that picture, some of it is coming back to me now; I think I put some gear in the 'unprotected' slab, found the move around the corner easy but I could see how you could make a hash of it, and I don't really remember the top as I think I am confusing it with another Classic Rock tick.
I suspect you are fit and strong and rubbish when those two are of absolutely no use.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Agreed, not the best climb there, but I suspect it might have been better before it was polished - probably by nailed boots so must have been a long long time ago.
The quality is partly because of the number of different styles of climbing within about 20m, many years ago a couple of my mates split it into 10 pitches
> I'm baffled by this 'epic' quality you've given it. It's a very safe climb, quite enjoyable, nothing very special though.
Agreed, not the best climb there, but I suspect it might have been better before it was polished - probably by nailed boots so must have been a long long time ago.
The quality is partly because of the number of different styles of climbing within about 20m, many years ago a couple of my mates split it into 10 pitches
In reply to Removed UserMike Rhodes:
I'm pretty sure they had number grades at Font at around the time you were born. They are also the precurser of UK tech grades.
I'm pretty sure they had number grades at Font at around the time you were born. They are also the precurser of UK tech grades.
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In reply to andrewmcleod:
Agreed, you can place gear on the slab. Small cams if memory serves me right.
Agreed, you can place gear on the slab. Small cams if memory serves me right.
In reply to zimpara:
The thing about grading is it's for the easiest sequence using the right technique, some thing you must learn on grit. None of the routes you mention are the wrong grade and they are all under F4 if top ropes. Holy bush crack is nothing like as hard as voie blue I've done both. Try back and footing holy bush crack for the first section btw. Yes it's much harder the noob way trying to climb the small polished holds.
It sounds to me like you need to learn your trad bread and butter - back and footing, udging and jamming, also on grit trust the friction more and keep your body weight under the slopers and stick thos smears. Finally wet grit isn't much fun.
The thing about grading is it's for the easiest sequence using the right technique, some thing you must learn on grit. None of the routes you mention are the wrong grade and they are all under F4 if top ropes. Holy bush crack is nothing like as hard as voie blue I've done both. Try back and footing holy bush crack for the first section btw. Yes it's much harder the noob way trying to climb the small polished holds.
It sounds to me like you need to learn your trad bread and butter - back and footing, udging and jamming, also on grit trust the friction more and keep your body weight under the slopers and stick thos smears. Finally wet grit isn't much fun.
Post edited at 23:19
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In reply to Offwidth:
Yes, I'm fairly sure (without looking it up/ away from reference books at present), based on knowledge of history of S Sandstone (which was heavily influenced by Fontainebleau) that the technical grades were first introduced at Fontainebleau in the mid-30s, at the latest, by the likes of Jean Morin, then imported around late 30s/early 40s to Harrisons and High Rocks by Nea Morin, and developed further by Edward Pyatt in the late 40s. Then, years later (mid-60s) adopted first by the London-based Holliwells to N Wales, and shortly afterwards by the CC and then Fell and Rock to all British and Welsh crags.
> I'm pretty sure they had number grades at Font at around the time you were born. They are also the precurser of UK tech grades.
Yes, I'm fairly sure (without looking it up/ away from reference books at present), based on knowledge of history of S Sandstone (which was heavily influenced by Fontainebleau) that the technical grades were first introduced at Fontainebleau in the mid-30s, at the latest, by the likes of Jean Morin, then imported around late 30s/early 40s to Harrisons and High Rocks by Nea Morin, and developed further by Edward Pyatt in the late 40s. Then, years later (mid-60s) adopted first by the London-based Holliwells to N Wales, and shortly afterwards by the CC and then Fell and Rock to all British and Welsh crags.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The thing that I remember about the excellent Hollybush Crack - a far better route than FB - is that it actually requires quite good technique for its standard. I.e. It feels far more like a proper climb.
The thing that I remember about the excellent Hollybush Crack - a far better route than FB - is that it actually requires quite good technique for its standard. I.e. It feels far more like a proper climb.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
"all British and Welsh crags" ? I'd have thought the Welsh had a better claim to be British than anyone else on these isles.
Don't think technical grades appeared in SMC guides till the 1980s although they were used in a few local guides to crags in the central belt & Dunkeld from the likes of Tiso & Highrange.
"all British and Welsh crags" ? I'd have thought the Welsh had a better claim to be British than anyone else on these isles.
Don't think technical grades appeared in SMC guides till the 1980s although they were used in a few local guides to crags in the central belt & Dunkeld from the likes of Tiso & Highrange.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
It's a bloody sight less horrible than wet limestone. I've led several grit VSs in the rain, having got caught out by fast moving showers, and they went ok. In fact the footholds aren't that bad, it's the hands that feel insecure. I wouldn't go so far as to seek wet routes out, but getting caught on one teaches you a thing or two about footwork.
> It sounds to me like you need to learn your trad bread and butter - back and footing, udging and jamming, also on grit trust the friction more and keep your body weight under the slopers and stick thos smears. Finally wet grit isn't much fun.
It's a bloody sight less horrible than wet limestone. I've led several grit VSs in the rain, having got caught out by fast moving showers, and they went ok. In fact the footholds aren't that bad, it's the hands that feel insecure. I wouldn't go so far as to seek wet routes out, but getting caught on one teaches you a thing or two about footwork.
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In reply to Doug:
Sorry, meant English and Welsh. I don't think they were used in Scotland until much later, as you say.
> "all British and Welsh crags" ? I'd have thought the Welsh had a better claim to be British than anyone else on these isles.
Sorry, meant English and Welsh. I don't think they were used in Scotland until much later, as you say.
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In reply to zimpara:
Hey Zimpara,
Merry Christmas.
Those routes at Stanage aren't that bad but they can be a little thought provoking if you are unused to the style.
I need to practise taking less expirenecrd folk climbing and scrambling a lot over the next year.
I'd be more than happy to take you out for a day if you fancy it.
Drop me a PM if you are interested/want to know more.
I'm based in Sheffield until the end of Jan and will be in North Wales from March onward.
All the best,
Tom
Hey Zimpara,
Merry Christmas.
Those routes at Stanage aren't that bad but they can be a little thought provoking if you are unused to the style.
I need to practise taking less expirenecrd folk climbing and scrambling a lot over the next year.
I'd be more than happy to take you out for a day if you fancy it.
Drop me a PM if you are interested/want to know more.
I'm based in Sheffield until the end of Jan and will be in North Wales from March onward.
All the best,
Tom
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In reply to Offwidth: Went bouldering today - Stanage Plantation to begin with. A bit WINDY to say the least - funnily enough nobody seemed to be climbing routes on the bone dry rock on the actual edge.
Until, I drove off and noticed one rope on - Hollybush Crack.
Until, I drove off and noticed one rope on - Hollybush Crack.
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