UKC

An excess of chalk on popular grit boulder problems can reduce friction. Is there a problem with washing away the chalk with water and lightly brushing? I know the rain would normally do this job, but some holds are sheltered. Obviously timing is key, I wouldn't want to wet the holds of a popular problem when good conditions busy weekends are expected. What I'm asking is, would cleaning damage the rock?

In reply to bendevonport:
Soft bristle brush should be enough. No point making things completely clean as they will only get chalked up again... just remove the worst excess and any tick marks. Too many grit problems are getting trashed from overbrushing and you still find the occasional moron using a wire brush on grit.

Its sad so many climbers fail to understand how chalk works (dries the hands, so any excess is unnecessary) and end up using way too much and some idiots even chalk footholds on purpose. Probably more than half of climbers I see indoors over-use chalk and a smaller but still sizable proportion outdoors.

I used to laugh at the ideas of the clean hand gang (as chalk really does help at the limits of hand friction) but it seems now like they had a point. It's worth seeing how much you really need it: last few climbing holidays (including two at font) I didn't use chalk at all (not really pushing myself to my limits technically) and indoors I spend way more time brushing excess off, than using any.

In reply to Offwidth:

While I agree that there are plenty of morons out there who overuse chalk (as I too spend more time cleaning chalk off holds than putting it on my hands when indoors):

1. You're ignoring the fact that people's hands sweat differently, so some need to use more.

2. Maybe you're not climbing at a level where it makes an appreciable difference.

In reply to Valkyrie1968:

Pretty sure chalk makes a difference even on damp VS'S. Nice little dig though, as if people who don't climb X grade "aren't really climbing" which simultaneously committed a straw man fallacy of ignoring offwidth's clarification that this happened on a holiday where he wasn't pushing it.

For the record, I'm as rubbish as the next for over using chalk. Its a defo psychological aid...

Edit: to the op, if you don't have enough common sense to just go about it but need to ask permission, maybe you aren't the right sardine for the tin eh?

In reply to bendevonport:


Maybe someone with more geological knowledge than me can comment, but wouldn't wetting the rock make it more vulnerable to being damaged?

I know there's been some discussion of this in older threads, and no clear conclusion, but there's certainly concern that gritstone may be more easily damaged when it's wet. In which case, brushing it while it's still wet could be a bad idea.

In reply to slab_happy:
I agree with that, maybe a damp towel would be better than a brush. A brush is best used before any wetting, to remove as much of the dry stuff as possible before having to wash the rest off.
I see no reason not to do this if careful.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm no fan of excessive chalk and brushing, but you're missing the fact that some holds will always suffer from build-up, particularly starting holds (or pre-crux holds on routes) that are under roofs. Even without idiotic chalk-plastering, the chalk just builds up on these holds due to where they are and creates a manky frictionless veneer.

Going out on an already wet day and with plant sprayer and a soft brush would be probably be a good idea - but there tends to be such a thick layer on such holds, and so well compacted over years or even decades, that it would probably take forever and be extremely unrewarding work. I think that to actually get anywhere, you'd need some kind of solvent (the stuff used to clean climbing wall holds would presumably work but might do some terrible harm to the holds in question - ignoring the fact that they're going to soon disappear under a new layer of encrusted chalk, and very few climbers would notice anyway).

Obviously this is going to be met with "oh no! don't vandalise the grit!" - and that's fair enough because we don't want anyone taking this type of aggressive approach to holds that do get washed naturally. But if anyone thinks they can clean holds like say the start of holds of Razor Roof (I guess they've been smashed off with hammer anyway, but the new ones) or Remergence with a just a towel or a little bouldering brush, they can try it themselves and see how far they get! Good luck with that.

In reply to Valkyrie1968:
I've climbed with one of the most self professedly sweaty prolific climbers in the UK (Fiend) and he wasn't responsible for the sort of mess I often see on the crags. Excessive use is nothing to do with sweaty hands and everything to do with clueless poor practice.

As for needing it I managed to work the crux sloper moves of Hampers Hang if thats good enough for you in terms of critical grit friction and the most serious damage and excessive use seems to me to be at punter grades often where hand friction isn't that key. Loads of stuff around the low V grades has lost the surface grey oxidation and the rock shows orange... some pocket based problems have been completely trashed. I look at routes and aside from cam damage things havent changed that much since I started. On boulder problems the erosion is serious or worse in a couple of decades.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I'm not missing that Jon. I think such chalked holds are inevitable (albeit a bit unsightly) and only wish to see the excess gently removed. I'm very much against overly agressive cleaning of such chalked holds as the rock seems to me to suffering from this. I do wish some people would use less chalk on them.

In reply to Offwidth:

Insulting people is not likely to win them over is it.

Has anyone tried vinegar, acidic enough to dissolve the carbonate with little or no damage to the underlying rock, probably no less damaging than brushing.

In reply to Offwidth:
Chalk isn't just for the hands though, is it? I am for using it sensibly and taking care when brushing, but you simply aren't stating facts when it comes to hard bouldering.

Very often a bit of chalk gently rubbed into a hold (sometimes then removed) can make a large difference to the friction, especially following a period of poor conditions, which we see all too often. Any tiny bits of moisture left on the surface of the rock from the day before, or just due to the humidity at the time, can make a big difference, and chalk is the best way to dry them.) I am not talking about 'wet' rock, but where the tiniest residue of dampness can make all the difference on a day that to the casual eye would be completely dry.

On longer problems it can also sometimes help if the holds later on the problem are well chalked as I find you arr less likely to deposit the chalk off your hands when you reach them, so overall your hands stay chalked for longer.

For feet, small chalk dabs (not huge donkey lines) can also make a real difference if there is a need to accurately hit a tiny hold in extremis. And sometimes you need a small tick mark for hands if the move is a bit 'blind'.

All the above are things well worth taking advantage of if you have dedicated days of your life to a single boulder problem, they can mean the difference between success and failure. Natural sweatiness has absolutely nothing to do with it. People should absolutely take care of the rock, but you shouldn't criticise them or call them idiots just for putting chalk on some holds that you think might be unnecessary. I don't believe you have the relevant experience.

In reply to 3leggeddog:
You seriously think not calling a spade a spade in respect of people who are trashing the rock or massively overusing chalk will help? I think we need more of this so its crystal clear. The BMC have educational material on all of this (often helpfully posted on indoor wall bulletin boards) and this happens despite the education.

http://theuiaa.org/documents/sustainability/Bouldering_code_BMC.pdf

I guess you think the tick mark hall of shame is bullying?

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,1942.0.html

Started by 'Mr sweaty hands' Fiend himself.

In reply to Si dH:
My relevant experience is working as a BMC volunteer alongside the best boulderers in the Peak and Yorkshire on guidebooks and access issues. You must know this so I find your comments rather odd ? A marked foothold and a chalked foothold are very different things. Tick marks can help but can also be cleaned. Chalked holds to counter moisture can be done considerately or excessively by the clueless. Gentle cleaning helps preserves the rock, heavy cleaning damages it.

In reply to Offwidth:

I know the level of experience you have both climbing and volunteering, but perhaps not projecting boulders right at your limit for long periods, which is where this matters. My final sentence was however unnecessary, so apologies. I was reacting to your first post, which suggested you thought anyone using chalk for a foothold was an idiot and that it was a shame that people didn't understand that chalk was only for drying sweaty hands. Both things are categorically untrue. Your latest post is more reasonable. Anyway, we have gone off the original topic.

In reply to slab_happy:



Rock tends to get wetted on a regular basis whether we like it or not.

In reply to Offwidth:

What a lovely place UKC is.

Merry Xmas sweetheart. I hope your hero buys you a nice jumper.

In reply to Si dH:
Of course I've projected boulders at my limit. I just don't see the point of trying to force such problems in damp conditions so its rare I chalk handholds (usually when stuck with an unexpected damp patch on a route). I accept others might at times (I am localish and flexible when i can climb) but there does come a point where its ridiculous to try and climb as hard as you can when the conditions are telling you to give up. It seems to me that too many mid-grade boulderers need to up their game in respect of sustainability as I often witness ego leading to less than good practice; alongside the clueless who do the most damage and make the most mess. The activists I've worked with are much better behaved and make their attitudes clear on the UKB thread (mostly shaming those who should know better).

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Merry Xmas to you too. UKC is only a forum but grit is gods own rock and trashing it or messing it up quite rightly raises emotive responses.

In reply to Andy Say:


I had noticed, yes. But it's not usually scrubbed with brushes while it's still wet.