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I an not a climber but i am an outdoors man, and am only on here for a quick pick of your brains.
I purchaced a Karrimor avalanche Primaloft jacket some years ago for 50 pounds, and is without doubt the best coat i have ever purchaced, and this jacket turned me into a great fan of the belay jacket. It lasted in great condition for 1 year and reasonable condition for 2. Unfortunately the new karrimor version is a piece of crap, it cost me the same but is quite honestly not worth 20 percent of the original. So i spent 200 on a quality product ( Berghaus Belay Parka) and even though it good its not got the finesse of the Karrimor.
Like most belay jackets I originally looked for-
-Thick insulation
- breathable material as i find goretex fairly useless when active and would rather use a waterproof
- hood closure cords
Hod peak stiffner
Synthetic insulation
The karrimor had:
- A weight of around 800g
- Elasticated cuffs rather than velcro which stopped that fold of material where the velcro scrunches up.
-Angled pockets that are coveres to stop light rain ingress
- a good zip baffle
- hard wearing material construction all over rather than material you have to think about
- a tight fitting neck whilst having a large hood to stop heat loss
-The hood drawstrings where further down the jacket and didnt interfere with the mouth of the person wearing it. The toggles of the hood drawstrings where easy flat press types sewn in rather than barrel toggles that are impossible to do with gloves on.
- the hood peak stiffener was thin, and therefore did not weigh the hood down.
I have been looking at a load of jackets but most either have velcro on the cuffs or are not insulating enough.
Has anyone any recomendations sugestions or comments ?
I purchaced a Karrimor avalanche Primaloft jacket some years ago for 50 pounds, and is without doubt the best coat i have ever purchaced, and this jacket turned me into a great fan of the belay jacket. It lasted in great condition for 1 year and reasonable condition for 2. Unfortunately the new karrimor version is a piece of crap, it cost me the same but is quite honestly not worth 20 percent of the original. So i spent 200 on a quality product ( Berghaus Belay Parka) and even though it good its not got the finesse of the Karrimor.
Like most belay jackets I originally looked for-
-Thick insulation
- breathable material as i find goretex fairly useless when active and would rather use a waterproof
- hood closure cords
Hod peak stiffner
Synthetic insulation
The karrimor had:
- A weight of around 800g
- Elasticated cuffs rather than velcro which stopped that fold of material where the velcro scrunches up.
-Angled pockets that are coveres to stop light rain ingress
- a good zip baffle
- hard wearing material construction all over rather than material you have to think about
- a tight fitting neck whilst having a large hood to stop heat loss
-The hood drawstrings where further down the jacket and didnt interfere with the mouth of the person wearing it. The toggles of the hood drawstrings where easy flat press types sewn in rather than barrel toggles that are impossible to do with gloves on.
- the hood peak stiffener was thin, and therefore did not weigh the hood down.
I have been looking at a load of jackets but most either have velcro on the cuffs or are not insulating enough.
Has anyone any recomendations sugestions or comments ?
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In reply to petrochemicals:
Arcteryx Kappa is pretty close to that spec- velcro sleeves though. Black Diamond Stance Parka has elasticated cuffs but it's not a tough face fabric and probably too warm unless you are only ever standing around?
Arcteryx Kappa is pretty close to that spec- velcro sleeves though. Black Diamond Stance Parka has elasticated cuffs but it's not a tough face fabric and probably too warm unless you are only ever standing around?
In reply to petrochemicals:
For cold climbing many climbers use the ME Fitzroy but a level up would be something like a Montane Spitfire or an ME Citadel. Many brands have equivalents but the features will be slightly different. Getting kit to replace those golden classics isn't easy as we don't warm to change.
PHD often use elastic rather than velcro but much of it is down rather than syth.
For cold climbing many climbers use the ME Fitzroy but a level up would be something like a Montane Spitfire or an ME Citadel. Many brands have equivalents but the features will be slightly different. Getting kit to replace those golden classics isn't easy as we don't warm to change.
PHD often use elastic rather than velcro but much of it is down rather than syth.
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Gareth-The budget is what the coats worth . If i had to put a price on the karrimor it would be 300 pounds or there abouts.
Guy-The Arkteryx ones look good, but its thoes velcro cuffs that get me ruffled material and a cuff that never stretches big enought to get your hand through comfortably. I may order the black diamond, i will have a look at it.
Odd- the velcro cuff again. They do it as it makes it useful for resizing the cuff for gloves, but I never found the elastic girdle cuff to be a problem in that regard.
Guy-The Arkteryx ones look good, but its thoes velcro cuffs that get me ruffled material and a cuff that never stretches big enought to get your hand through comfortably. I may order the black diamond, i will have a look at it.
Odd- the velcro cuff again. They do it as it makes it useful for resizing the cuff for gloves, but I never found the elastic girdle cuff to be a problem in that regard.
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In reply to petrochemicals:
Belay jackets are great for belaying in cold weather, what will you be using yours for?
> I an not a climber but i am an outdoors man, and am only on here for a quick pick of your brains.
Belay jackets are great for belaying in cold weather, what will you be using yours for?
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In reply to petrochemicals:
I'm not 100% sure what you're looking for, but I've just got this and it's fit, quality and warmth:weight are superb:
https://www.alpkit.com/products/katabatic-mens
If you are not really using it as a belay jacket, why not look at down instead (and PhD)?
I'm not 100% sure what you're looking for, but I've just got this and it's fit, quality and warmth:weight are superb:
https://www.alpkit.com/products/katabatic-mens
If you are not really using it as a belay jacket, why not look at down instead (and PhD)?
In reply to petrochemicals:
If budget is no issue, I've found the Patagonia Dad Parka to be the dogs bollocks in this category. Only downside is that it packs up the size of a medium pillow. Although I would be very upset to think that one hadn't had the battering it deserved in Scottish Winter or the mountains and was just used to walk the dog.
If budget is no issue, I've found the Patagonia Dad Parka to be the dogs bollocks in this category. Only downside is that it packs up the size of a medium pillow. Although I would be very upset to think that one hadn't had the battering it deserved in Scottish Winter or the mountains and was just used to walk the dog.
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ianstevens - that does look like what im after, bomb proof ! The size isnt an issue. First year it will be used for walking the dog, second year it will be up the mountains and over the fields with it. I like the warmth and bomproof no hassle take on a coat. As i say id rather use a water proof over the top, as it makes drying it and condensation far easier. Good and heavy too.
Y Gribin -that is the problem every one has gone to down, and/or goretexy stuff, (rab karrimor berghaus regatta to name a few) and that proves a problem when the coat invariably gets snagged on barbed wire or any serious activity, or gets wet the down clumps and is an absolute bugger to dry. Thanks for the suggestion its a bit tightweight though.
Dell Im not a rock climber but mountains i do like, camping or having a wander in places that are not so easily evacuated from.
I was talking to a man in a shop and his view of down was whilst superior to modern primaloft ilk synthetics in dry air, britian is so humid that any advantage you gain in weight is lost due to the down loosing loft due to humidity of britian.
L Drew Smith A price of about 200 seems to cut it
Y Gribin -that is the problem every one has gone to down, and/or goretexy stuff, (rab karrimor berghaus regatta to name a few) and that proves a problem when the coat invariably gets snagged on barbed wire or any serious activity, or gets wet the down clumps and is an absolute bugger to dry. Thanks for the suggestion its a bit tightweight though.
Dell Im not a rock climber but mountains i do like, camping or having a wander in places that are not so easily evacuated from.
I was talking to a man in a shop and his view of down was whilst superior to modern primaloft ilk synthetics in dry air, britian is so humid that any advantage you gain in weight is lost due to the down loosing loft due to humidity of britian.
L Drew Smith A price of about 200 seems to cut it
In reply to petrochemicals:
Re: loft. First I've heard about UK humidity reducing loft, in any case, using a dry treated down would reduce this.
Maybe a hybrid would make a nice compromise? Primaloft down blend?
Re: loft. First I've heard about UK humidity reducing loft, in any case, using a dry treated down would reduce this.
Maybe a hybrid would make a nice compromise? Primaloft down blend?
In reply to petrochemicals:
Patagonia DAS...
Alpkit Ohire might also fit the bill.
And that Decathlon 50 bucks dealio, if thick enough.
Patagonia DAS...
Alpkit Ohire might also fit the bill.
And that Decathlon 50 bucks dealio, if thick enough.
In reply to petrochemicals:
what about the new Montane?
https://www.montane.co.uk/mens-c1/clothing-c25/insulated-jackets-c6/hi-q-lu...
what about the new Montane?
https://www.montane.co.uk/mens-c1/clothing-c25/insulated-jackets-c6/hi-q-lu...
stucknortherner:
Its a bit light
Dell
I like the synthetic in a cjacket as if it rips you do not loose the fill, and its less tempremental to boot. The down damp thing is when your sleeping bag doesnt feel as lofty as usual. The thing is that at sub zero temps theres no humidity so it doesnt get damp, fortunately thats when the weight and compresibility of down come into there own, a 2kg down bag is alot smaller than the 3kg+ synthetic.
HeMa
The alpkit has still got the velcro cuffs. What im after is a jacket with at least;
tough fabric
, weighing at least 700g
with strech cuffs
As for the Patagonia DAC it seems to have gone the way of the karrrimor, no longer avaliable, there was one place in the states at 350 quid, so tack on an import charge and your pushing 500 unfortunatley
this is on patagonia
http://eu.patagonia.com/enGB/product/mens-rubicon-jacket-for-skiing-and-sno...
Which looks very nice but its velcro on the cuffs again. It seems the manufacturers are going for the wintersports market. I cant find a replacement for the DAC
Its a bit light
Dell
I like the synthetic in a cjacket as if it rips you do not loose the fill, and its less tempremental to boot. The down damp thing is when your sleeping bag doesnt feel as lofty as usual. The thing is that at sub zero temps theres no humidity so it doesnt get damp, fortunately thats when the weight and compresibility of down come into there own, a 2kg down bag is alot smaller than the 3kg+ synthetic.
HeMa
The alpkit has still got the velcro cuffs. What im after is a jacket with at least;
tough fabric
, weighing at least 700g
with strech cuffs
As for the Patagonia DAC it seems to have gone the way of the karrrimor, no longer avaliable, there was one place in the states at 350 quid, so tack on an import charge and your pushing 500 unfortunatley
this is on patagonia
http://eu.patagonia.com/enGB/product/mens-rubicon-jacket-for-skiing-and-sno...
Which looks very nice but its velcro on the cuffs again. It seems the manufacturers are going for the wintersports market. I cant find a replacement for the DAC
In reply to guy127917:
"Black Diamond Stance Parka has elasticated cuffs but it's not a tough face fabric"
I'd agree with this, I pulled the material on mine very easily when getting around a Hawthorn tree which would have been shrugged off easily by my old rab belay jacket.
and probably too warm unless you are only ever standing around?
This is really the purpose of any belay jacket surely, although the BD stance I've found to be a bit short on the torso so you get a bit of a breeze, but the hood is brilliant.
"Black Diamond Stance Parka has elasticated cuffs but it's not a tough face fabric"
I'd agree with this, I pulled the material on mine very easily when getting around a Hawthorn tree which would have been shrugged off easily by my old rab belay jacket.
and probably too warm unless you are only ever standing around?
This is really the purpose of any belay jacket surely, although the BD stance I've found to be a bit short on the torso so you get a bit of a breeze, but the hood is brilliant.
In reply to petrochemicals:
Patagonia is like that, most likely the DAS will be back in a few years (if not already next fall). That said, I do know for a fact that a local (Finnish) shop had them in Blue for 150 Eur. No E-shop though. Perhaps lookin' around for the DAS is vise, in fact callin' the Patagucci outlet in London might be adviced...
Ps. Patagucci still seems to sell it:
http://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/84102.html
As for Alpkit having velcro cuffs? Did it change as the Ohiro had elastics last time I looked (which is why I omitted it... I want them oversized cuffs with velcro tabs, not elastics).
> As for the Patagonia DAS it seems to have gone the way of the karrrimor, no longer avaliable, there was one place in the states at 350 quid, so tack on an import charge and your pushing 500 unfortunately
Patagonia is like that, most likely the DAS will be back in a few years (if not already next fall). That said, I do know for a fact that a local (Finnish) shop had them in Blue for 150 Eur. No E-shop though. Perhaps lookin' around for the DAS is vise, in fact callin' the Patagucci outlet in London might be adviced...
Ps. Patagucci still seems to sell it:
http://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-das-parka/84102.html
As for Alpkit having velcro cuffs? Did it change as the Ohiro had elastics last time I looked (which is why I omitted it... I want them oversized cuffs with velcro tabs, not elastics).
Post edited at 05:54
In reply to petrochemicals:
Have a look at some of the Snugpak jackets. The SJ range are pretty good. Tough fabric (they are popular with force as they are squaddie proof), thick, heavy weight, elasticated cuffs. The fit can be a bit odd so best to try before you buy if you can.
Have a look at some of the Snugpak jackets. The SJ range are pretty good. Tough fabric (they are popular with force as they are squaddie proof), thick, heavy weight, elasticated cuffs. The fit can be a bit odd so best to try before you buy if you can.
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In reply to petrochemicals:
I know its a typical answer but the Rab down jackets are cult gear for a reason. Easy to get on and off, warm, stop wind quite well. They can deal with a light shower. The material looks like it has the strength of a pensioners skin but they do take some abuse.
Id recommend the Rab microlight alpine down jacket personally. If you need warmer then the Electron.
I know its a typical answer but the Rab down jackets are cult gear for a reason. Easy to get on and off, warm, stop wind quite well. They can deal with a light shower. The material looks like it has the strength of a pensioners skin but they do take some abuse.
Id recommend the Rab microlight alpine down jacket personally. If you need warmer then the Electron.
HeMa- Yep your right the alpkit has strech cuffs. The import charge stops me buying Das Parka from the states especially as you reccon it will be back. Ill keep an eye out for one and probably get one of those.
Andypeak - the snugpak seem seem quite good, thank
ParaDan - isnt down susceptible to problems when your working hard ? Ive read about down being soaking wet with sweat ?
Andypeak - the snugpak seem seem quite good, thank
ParaDan - isnt down susceptible to problems when your working hard ? Ive read about down being soaking wet with sweat ?
In reply to petrochemicals:
I guess but if your chucking it on as a layer for belaying or anything else none active your not going to be getting sweaty. If you are likely to be running hot in it theres probably a better option.
It just works well for me
I initially went for the Montane extreme smock which is an epic bit of gear but as part of a set of layers I was finding it was bloody awkward to get on and off, it was also on the heavy side and to be honest it wasnt as warm as a down jacket.
Id say dont dismiss it till you put one on and have a play 😊
I guess but if your chucking it on as a layer for belaying or anything else none active your not going to be getting sweaty. If you are likely to be running hot in it theres probably a better option.
It just works well for me
I initially went for the Montane extreme smock which is an epic bit of gear but as part of a set of layers I was finding it was bloody awkward to get on and off, it was also on the heavy side and to be honest it wasnt as warm as a down jacket.
Id say dont dismiss it till you put one on and have a play 😊
Post edited at 17:49
In reply to guy127917:
I have both the Arc Kappa and the BD Stance. Both are good, and different from each other.
Kappa is heavier duty face fabric, as others have said; so more robust. It is also more waterproof (and less breathable) due to taped seams and heavier material. I also find it warmer.
For me the Stance is a lighter weight option when needed, or more for use when active/ sweating.
I find the fit in both (size medium) is generous as you would expect with a belay jacket. Features are good although Stance doesn't have a reversible zip, a strange omission important for climbing but perhaps not for you.
I have both the Arc Kappa and the BD Stance. Both are good, and different from each other.
Kappa is heavier duty face fabric, as others have said; so more robust. It is also more waterproof (and less breathable) due to taped seams and heavier material. I also find it warmer.
For me the Stance is a lighter weight option when needed, or more for use when active/ sweating.
I find the fit in both (size medium) is generous as you would expect with a belay jacket. Features are good although Stance doesn't have a reversible zip, a strange omission important for climbing but perhaps not for you.
In reply to fairweatherclimber:
Just to be clear- do you have the stance hoody, or stance parka? I would have thought the stance parka was warmer than the kappa. (I have both here in front of me but haven't tried either in anger)
Just to be clear- do you have the stance hoody, or stance parka? I would have thought the stance parka was warmer than the kappa. (I have both here in front of me but haven't tried either in anger)
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In reply to petrochemicals:
With your suggested budget it might be worth contacting PHD and seeing if you can get one of their synthetic fill jackets made up with elasticared cuffs?
With your suggested budget it might be worth contacting PHD and seeing if you can get one of their synthetic fill jackets made up with elasticared cuffs?
In reply to guy127917:
I have the parka. Not warmer than the Kappa; slim possibility the spec has changed?
I have the parka. Not warmer than the Kappa; slim possibility the spec has changed?
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In reply to fairweatherclimber:
I'd say avoid mammut.
Bought their xeron jacket 4 days ago,the pertex on the back is totally f*cked from backpack straps after a short walk to the wall and back.
For £110 (after gooutdoors cheapness) I expected a lot more.
Granted it's a lightweight jacket but it should be able to survive more than a walk.
I'd say avoid mammut.
Bought their xeron jacket 4 days ago,the pertex on the back is totally f*cked from backpack straps after a short walk to the wall and back.
For £110 (after gooutdoors cheapness) I expected a lot more.
Granted it's a lightweight jacket but it should be able to survive more than a walk.
In reply to fairweatherclimber:
The Stance is (total) 160g Primaloft Silver hi loft throughout. The Kappa is 133g Gold in the body (but lighter in the arms), however is waterproof/windproof..... so it's probably fairly even.
The Stance is (total) 160g Primaloft Silver hi loft throughout. The Kappa is 133g Gold in the body (but lighter in the arms), however is waterproof/windproof..... so it's probably fairly even.
In reply to guy127917:
Thats a good point, about the hoody and parka, they are identical, exept for the insulation
Thats a good point, about the hoody and parka, they are identical, exept for the insulation
In reply to petrochemicals:
Very impressed with my Paramo Torres Alturo , very warm ... fabric feels very soft but has survived many scrapes.
Definitely sized to fit over other layers so make sure you try before you buy.
Very impressed with my Paramo Torres Alturo , very warm ... fabric feels very soft but has survived many scrapes.
Definitely sized to fit over other layers so make sure you try before you buy.
In reply to petrochemicals:
Hi mate. I have the exact same karrimor jacket from sports soccer with primaloft one (now called gold)
It's a great jacket and I'm still been able to find another jacket to replace it.
I've tried montane prism, mamut (forget name from go outdoors) , ME Fitzroy, alpkit 0hiro and some others but none can take it's place.
If you find a replacement please let me know
Hi mate. I have the exact same karrimor jacket from sports soccer with primaloft one (now called gold)
It's a great jacket and I'm still been able to find another jacket to replace it.
I've tried montane prism, mamut (forget name from go outdoors) , ME Fitzroy, alpkit 0hiro and some others but none can take it's place.
If you find a replacement please let me know
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