/ Snowdon permit system (again)

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richprideaux - on 11 Jan 2017
The annual 'charge people to go up Snowdon' story is back. Still waiting for the 'limit subsidy-supported upland grazing to prevent ecological damage' story, but there you go...

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/permits-quotas-needed-stem-huge-12430957
zimpara - on 11 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

And yet we all bitch and panic at the RED TAPE and permits to climb peaks in other countries.

There is no reason at all to reduce numbers of people bumbling up Snowdon.
deacondeacon - on 11 Jan 2017
In reply to zimpara:
For once I agree with you ;)
I don't think anyone should be refused the right to walk on any mountain they choose.
The great think about North Wales is that Snowdon is so popular it keeps all the other hills relatively quiet.
Win win.
Lusk - on 11 Jan 2017
In reply to deacondeacon:

You only have too go a few yards off piste ...
Last time I was there, attempting an extended horseshoe,
North Ridge - deserted
Crib Goch - usual busyness, not too bad
Summit - queue to stand on the trig, the only summit I've ever had to do that
Yr Aran - deserted
Lliwedd - too knackered to get up there, bailed out down to Llyn Gwynant.
Welsh Kate - on 11 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

Reads more like a 'let's repeal CROW and keep those walkers orf our land' thing.

There are regularly queues to take 'summit' photos on top of Pen y Fan these days, I wonder if the National Park should consider a permit system for it...
richprideaux - on 11 Jan 2017
In reply to Welsh Kate:

I think the whole Snowdon Partnership thing is mostly about placating landowners rather than a genuine desire to manage the mountain.

I'm still not sure what the purpose of the upland farms are - we don't eat their meat in the U.K., it's a neglible export and we pay a lot of money per sheep to keep the mountain clear of flora...
Big Ger - on 11 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

Try this, just down the road from me;

Kosciuszko National Park is open all year round but at times some roads and trails close due to weather conditions or other park management issues, for details click on the alerts button or contact one of the park's visitor centres.

Park entry fees:
Winter (Alpine Way, Kosciuszko Rd and Link Road) From start of June long weekend to end of October long weekend: $29 per vehicle per day (24hrs); motorcycles $12; bus passengers $11.45 per adult, $3.60 per child per day(24hrs). Find out more about the Winter entry surcharge.

Rest of the year (Alpine Way and Kosciuszko Road only) $17 per vehicle per day (24hrs); motorcycles $7; bus passengers $6.60 per adult, $2.20 per child per day (24hrs).


Yarrangobilly Caves (year-round): $4 per vehicle per day, unless park entry has been paid.

Passes: Day passes (based on daily entry fees above), multi-day passes and annual All Parks Pass available from local visitor centres, local agents and operating vehicle entry stations. Read our Annual Pass FAQs for information on upgrades. Short Breaks Pass: $68 for five-days park entry at price of four days (not valid winter). Pensioners are exempt from park entry fees. Download the exemption form.
Buy an annual pass.


http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/visit-a-park/parks/Kosciuszko-National-Park
wercat on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

Perhaps a permit system for organized events/challenges run by commercial companies? Could do this in the Lakes too. I'd be in favour if it defused the idea of charging individuals and families who are not part of the commercial use
Simon Caldwell - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to wercat:

Perhaps a permit system for [something I don't do]. Could do this in the Lakes too. I'd be in favour if it defused the idea of charging for [something I do].
ceri - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Surely you remember how UKC were so supportive of the NTs idea to charge groups and commercial users of their land?
galpinos on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

> Perhaps a permit system for [something I don't do]. Could do this in the Lakes too. I'd be in favour if it defused the idea of charging for [something I do].

Ha! This is the best idea I've heard in a long time.........
richprideaux - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to wercat:

There isn't much evidence to show that commercial use (other than the railway) causes issues - most of the littering, sheep-worrying, poor navigation choices, bad parking etc etc actually comes from groups and individuals who are probably only going to visit once. Their contribution to the area will probably be the parking fine they get on the main road, and maybe some fuel on the A55.
Neil Williams - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:
The easiest way to manage this is to control car parking. Fewer people arrive on foot, bus and bicycle, and that is to be encouraged anyway.

If you increased the fee at Pen-y-Pass to say 20-30, and 10 in the Llanberis P&R, close the laybys on the road except for emergency use, and Permit parking throughout Llanberis to stop people just parking up there, you'd get more income and a reduction in those walking up Snowdon.

But I do question how much of a problem it *actually* is. The rest of Snowdonia is relatively unspoilt.
Post edited at 09:40
ianstevens - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> The easiest way to manage this is to control car parking. Fewer people arrive on foot, bus and bicycle, and that is to be encouraged anyway.

> If you increased the fee at Pen-y-Pass to say 20-30, and 10 in the Llanberis P&R, close the laybys on the road except for emergency use, and Permit parking throughout Llanberis to stop people just parking up there, you'd get more income and a reduction in those walking up Snowdon.

Please no. Paying a tenner to go climbing in the pass would be awful.
Neil Williams - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:
> Please no. Paying a tenner to go climbing in the pass would be awful.

Would it? You'd pay a tenner to go to an artificial wall.

I don't really support the idea, I'm just saying that if there *was* a desire to control access parking is a better way of doing it than climbing Permits. I don't, equally, think it would be the end of the world. A big advantage, as I said, is that it would not be imposed on less well-off people who would more likely arrive by bus or bicycle or on foot.
Post edited at 09:59
ianstevens - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Would it? You'd pay a tenner to go to an artificial wall.

It would and I wouldn't. As a student who takes advantage of package deals (buy 10 entries for x) it's rare I pay over 5 for the wall, but that's somewhat besides the point here. Plus I can appreciate that the wall has costs to run. A layby on road is (well, should be....) covered by taxation and by not being a tw*t my direct environmental impact of going climbing in the pass is negligible, to the point I actually pick up litter left behind by others. Furthermore that 10 spent on parking would then not get put back into local business (i.e. the cafe or Joe Brown), creating employment and keeping the fragile local economy ticking over.

> I don't really support the idea, I'm just saying that if there *was* a desire to control access parking is a better way of doing it than climbing Permits. I don't, equally, think it would be the end of the world. A big advantage, as I said, is that it would not be imposed on less well-off people who would more likely arrive by bus or bicycle or on foot.

Fair enough. I actually think that access dosen't need to be controlled, just those accessing the hill(s) need a better level of basic UK upland edcation re: navigation, litter etc. Yes, the Llanberis Path, Pyg and Miners tracks have become trade routes in the summer, but anyone who is a "serious" walker is unlikley to go up them anyway, and the punters slogging up the voie normals out of breath are generally to tired (from what I've seen) to see the vast numbers as a detriment to their day out.

You say a parking charge wouldn't impact less-well-off people, but I actually disagree here. It's cheaper for me to drive with three friends than for us to get the bus, and carrying a trad rack/boulder mat on a bicycle is a nightmare. Furthermore, without dragging the bike up to, say, the cromlech, where is there aside from Pen-y-Pass (if indeed there is a place there) to lock it?

I would prefer a system where the park-and-ride in Nant Peris is extended to be able to take double then number of cars it can now, for around 3 a day. Then more regular busses (included in the price) to Pen-y-Pass with a couple of request stops en route. Then line to roads with residental parking zones and free parking permits to those in Nant Peris. Incentivise some cafe-building in Nant Peris for everyone to spend money in on the way back down.
Offwidth - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

Going into the mountains for the first time with no real skills can inspire a love for them, so less judgement please on what the inexperienced do or don't enjoy. How do you think most climbers and mountaineers started before indoor walls?
Neil Williams - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:
> I would prefer a system where the park-and-ride in Nant Peris is extended to be able to take double then number of cars it can now, for around 3 a day. Then more regular busses (included in the price) to Pen-y-Pass with a couple of request stops en route. Then line to roads with residental parking zones and free parking permits to those in Nant Peris. Incentivise some cafe-building in Nant Peris for everyone to spend money in on the way back down.

I'd personally like to see the Snowdon Sherpa bus network expanded to the point that it's good enough for us to be able to have visitors park their cars on the edge of the Park and not drive in at all - same[1] with the Lakes (then non-resident/non-business parking in the Park could be at a premium for those who really want it, other than for disabled badge holders for whom it could be free or heavily discounted). But the question would be raised of how that was funded. A tourist tax which gives the payer a "free" bus pass works very well in Switzerland, but that (usually about CHF3, which is about 2) could be quite a whack on top of, say, a fiver a night at Gwern Gof Isaf.

[1] Actually, even more so with the Lakes - it has serious traffic congestion problems at busy times that Snowdonia doesn't. I don't recall ever being stuck in traffic in Snowdonia.
Post edited at 10:36
wercat on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

If you change that to [something I don't make a profit from and that doesn't involve large scale use] then I'd agree.

Don't you think access for low budget trips should take precedence over profitable larger scale enterprises? Otherwise only the affluent can access Snowdonia.

wercat on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

I think the organised 3 peak events have an impact on Wasdale and Seathwaite. I thought of this when 4am was mentioned as being necessary to find parking at the pass!
wercat on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

it wouldn't be awful at all as those who paid it would be well able to. It wouldn't be awful for the rest of us as Snowdonia would simply be unaffordable. Pen y Pass is somewhere that ceased to be affordable years ago for us, would just apply to LLanberis as well
wercat on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm afraid I would only pay a tenner if it was something special like an ice wall. A tenner is more than we can afford
ianstevens - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

> Going into the mountains for the first time with no real skills can inspire a love for them, so less judgement please on what the inexperienced do or don't enjoy. How do you think most climbers and mountaineers started before indoor walls?

I think you've missed my point here: at no point did I say the inexperienced couldn't go or wouldn't enjoy being out and about. I can only draw from my own expericene, but I first got out into the UK hills, unsuprisngly, as a novice in my early teens before heading to an indoor wall. I walked up the Llanberis path and the Pyg track, and had great days out both times but was thourougly knackered and given that I was simply enjoying being in a "remote" environment that I didn't cae about the crowds. I assume that most novice walkers have a similar experience, and whilst I may be wrong, from what I've seen of others this is not the case.

What I was alluding to is that novices should have some idea how to use a map,compass, and not drop litter everywhere. Not exactly expert knowledge, and can easily be gained to a suitable standard for a summer day with a sign or two and info centre at the car park(s).
wercat on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

bus is rather expensive. Parking charges determine where I park in the Lakes as the cost of the fuel plus parking at 7 is no longer affordable and I know I'm not alone here. Probably means the less affluent are not the kind of people who should be accessing the fells. At my age the bike ride to get there would be enough so I don't suppose I'd do much in the mountains. You ain't Marie Antoinette by any chance?
ianstevens - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I'd personally like to see the Snowdon Sherpa bus network expanded to the point that it's good enough for us to be able to have visitors park their cars on the edge of the Park and not drive in at all - same[1] with the Lakes (then non-resident/non-business parking in the Park could be at a premium for those who really want it, other than for disabled badge holders for whom it could be free or heavily discounted). But the question would be raised of how that was funded. A tourist tax which gives the payer a "free" bus pass works very well in Switzerland, but that (usually about CHF3, which is about 2) could be quite a whack on top of, say, a fiver a night at Gwern Gof Isaf.

> [1] Actually, even more so with the Lakes - it has serious traffic congestion problems at busy times that Snowdonia doesn't. I don't recall ever being stuck in traffic in Snowdonia.

Yes, but I think there are several issues with this, namely the fact that a) the park is very large, b) busses to less popular sports would bu unsustainable economically, c) people hate busses and d) big busses and twisty roads do not go hand-inhand with efficency. It's a nice idea but I'm not conviced it would work in practice.

If such an idea was executed then a tourist tax would be ideal I think - most users of the 5 campsites propbably spend more the 2 on fuel a day anyway. Although this creates another issue - if no cars are allowed in the NP, then you would need to get the bus to get to the campsite before getting your tourist card. And what about those who opt to wild camp for a night?

I've never been stuck in traffic, but (ironically) have been stuck behind busses and lorries (further south).

Neil Williams - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

(c) (people hate buses) is a horrible piece of UK prejudice that needs to be killed off. It isn't the case in any other country. It is the case (a) because Maggie was a gob, and (b) because the quality is typically lacking. With proper funding (b) can be resolved, but when are we going to get over (a) and realise, like the Swiss, Germans, Dutch etc, that buses are actually a very good thing?
richprideaux - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to wercat:

I'm not so sure - I would say there was a decent split between 'organised commercial group' and 'organised club/company/charity/group of friends group'. The commercial groups have a very strong vested interest in not leaving litter or disturbing locals - particularly as the guides themselves are probably resident in one of the three areas the N3P visits. The N3P is over-subscribed and the parking situation is ridiculous, but it isn't a huge industry where every provider is making a mint. Charities of all sizes locked onto the idea of outdoor challenges for fundraising a while ago, and a lot actually organise them in-house instead of using external commercial providers. They will probably hire freelance MLs, but aren't "profitable larger scale enterprises" per se.

Snowdon gets more in the way of races (Brutal Tri, Rat Race, international mountain race, Snowdon Sevens etc) that have a big visual impact on the mountain and in Llanberis, but other than path erosion they are fairly low-impact for the mountain itself. They employ locals, money is often donated or paid to MRTs and they too have an interest in not p*ssing off people.

Other than Pen y Pass being full by 8am on every day from April-September and the parking overflow issues either side the issues of the mountain being so popular are mainly environmental and the burden on MRTs. The former is a real issue, but equally as much of an issue as subsidised upland grazing and other farming practices. The latter is also a real concern, but that is probably as much of a cultural issue as anything else - promoting Snowdonia as a destination needs to go beyond "Ziplines! Surfing Ponds! Funny Accents! Oh, and Mt Snowdon too...". By placing the mountain in the same category as paying a fortune to slide down a wire in a quarry, or occasionally catch a wave when the machinery is working you remove personal responsibility and the awareness of risk. It's only Snowdon, isn't it? How hard can it be?
Neil Williams - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

A thought on PYP and overflow parking...if PYP was prebooking only might that mean people choose to go elsewhere if they can't book a spot? At present they will go there, find it's full, and go to try to park elsewhere. If you knew you weren't going to get in, might you choose a different mountain instead?
richprideaux - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

The Sherpa bus was doing well until all of that unpleasantness with fraud and imaginary passengers:

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/padarn-buses-directors-jailed-eight-11092979
wercat on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

My assertion wasn't based on statistics but simply what I've seen very often in the Lakes from Spring to Autumn and you're probably right, as my visits to N Wales are less frequent these last few years. The park and ride is a great idea at current pricing but if it became expensive to discourage numbers it would be a shame.
richprideaux - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:
The thing is that the cars parked down the clearway either side of the pass aren't ardent hillwalkers who are there for a mountain experience, they're there to climb Snowdon. You would be amazed how many clients I've had who:

- Didn't know there were any other mountains in Wales
- Thought Snowdon was the only one you could walk on
- Wouldn't even consider the idea of walking up a different mountain - Snowdon is the only one that their Instagram/Facebook/ArseTwitFace followers will care about.

We look at the problem as walkers, climbers and mountaineers. The folk parking badly, dropping litter and letting their dogs chase sheep over a precipice are probably going to visit once, or maybe twice (when it snows).
Post edited at 11:21
wercat on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

One thing I think is a bit of a shame is that parking difficulties make it less attractive to stay at Pen y Pass. Still, those days of staying there and not having to worry won't return for sure
Jim Hamilton - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> A thought on PYP and overflow parking...if PYP was prebooking only might that mean people choose to go elsewhere if they can't book a spot? At present they will go there, find it's full, and go to try to park elsewhere. If you knew you weren't going to get in, might you choose a different mountain instead?

Wouldn't have thought so, don't people just park (and pay) down by the PyG?
richprideaux - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

It fills up very quickly, so they then start parking on the roadside towards Gwynant. Others follow them and park there, and you soon get a good line of cars down the side there. Around 2-3pm the council warden comes along and issues tickets.
Ramblin dave - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I'd personally like to see the Snowdon Sherpa bus network expanded to the point that it's good enough for us to be able to have visitors park their cars on the edge of the Park and not drive in at all - same[1] with the Lakes (then non-resident/non-business parking in the Park could be at a premium for those who really want it, other than for disabled badge holders for whom it could be free or heavily discounted). But the question would be raised of how that was funded.

Presumably reasonably aggressive parking charges at any car park that's also served by a bus stop would cover quite a lot? The main issue being the difficulty of convincing people that that's genuinely where the money is going, and not on extra champers for the council's Christmas party.

The other downside of this option is that it's not great for businesses that are based between the existing car parks and the new park and ride sites, and who'd probably be pretty screwed by the loss of the passing trade they get from people driving back from Pen Y Pass, Ogwen Cottage etc.
richprideaux - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Ramblin dave:

I'm still not sure that parking is THAT much of an issue, or at least the thing that needs tackling in isolation. I think a better dialogue between tourism agencies and their promotion of an area and the NPA and other agencies looking for innovative ways to tackle the sudden increase in visitor numbers. Either we are promoting a destination, and need the infrastructure to support it OR we're preserving a landscape and need to carefully protect it and limit human ingress.
ianstevens - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> (c) (people hate buses) is a horrible piece of UK prejudice that needs to be killed off. It isn't the case in any other country. It is the case (a) because Maggie was a gob, and (b) because the quality is typically lacking. With proper funding (b) can be resolved, but when are we going to get over (a) and realise, like the Swiss, Germans, Dutch etc, that buses are actually a very good thing?

Conpletely agree with c), but it is the case and would make such a system unpopular given current attitudes. Added to that that UK busses are generally in a disgusting conditon compared to those you mention in Europe. Personally I'm a big fan, but the K population as a whole isn't which would be a large barrier.
GrahamD - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

If busses are a problem, maybe a train is the answer
ClayClay - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

One of the reasons I like Snowdonia so much is that most of the people concentrate on Snowdon. This leaves large areas of relative peace to enjoy. It is clear to see however, that the summit area is highly pressured, most apparent through litter and the occasional stench around the buildings caused by urine when busy. I hope the National Park are working on some sort of solution, but I don't think charging is one.

My personal solution would be to have a national park employee authorised (by whatever method- I don't know how) to issue fines for littering stationed at the problem area during busy periods, and clear up after the shift (that way an extra incentive to stop litterers!). Obviously paying for this is an issue too.

The ultimate solution is educating people from an early age to have respect for the mountains, and we can all help out here for free.
Jim Hamilton - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

> Conpletely agree with c

I don't think people hate buses, it's usually just more convenient/flexible/comfortable to use your car when in Snowdonia.
ianstevens - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

> I don't think people hate buses, it's usually just more convenient/flexible/comfortable to use your car when in Snowdonia.

This need not be the case with an imroved service though.
Ramblin dave - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

Although even then you'd probably get a lag as people actually get their heads around the idea that it's now actually cheap and convenient to leave the car in Betws and hop on a bus to Ogwen or Pen Y Pass.

I mean, I'd be in favour of this sort of thing because I actually quite like doing trips by public transport where possible, but even I find that figuring out what is and is not feasible can be a headache, and I'm actively looking.
LittleRob - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to richprideaux:

I'm not in a position to comment on whether numbers are or are not a problem, but I'm not sure how a charge could be enforced since there are so many rights of way across Snowdon.

Most, if not all, of the main routes (e.g. Llanberis path, Pyg Track, Miners) are shown on the OS map, and that implies a Public Right of Way. To charge a fee would mean creating, in effect, toll footpaths.

Rob

Jim Hamilton - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

> This need not be the case with an imroved service though.

I don't think even an improved service can "compete" with a car - my usual Snowdonia climbing weekend itinerary is a bit more involved than just going from Betws to Ogwen or Pen y Pass!
Neil Williams - on 12 Jan 2017
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
Public transport is a bit of an 80-20 thing. About 80% of the journeys will cover about 20% of routes - that's the kind of thing it does well. Cars (and taxis) will always be necessary for the 20% of the journeys on the 80% of lower used routes, if you see what I mean.

But if you could get 80% of the cars off the road...
Post edited at 16:56
fred99 - on 13 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

> This need not be the case with an imroved service though.

Would an improved service get walkers/climbers to their start by 6.30 a.m. in winter ?
Would an improved service be able to get walkers/climbers back after 8.00 p.m. in winter, and 10.00 p.m. in summer ?
Would the improved service be able to get hordes of DofE people back last thing at night, when there are enough of them (and others of course) to fill 3 buses at the end of the day ?

Just who do you think would drive the buses at all hours, and how much do you think this would cost ?
Neil Williams - on 13 Jan 2017
In reply to fred99:
> Would an improved service get walkers/climbers to their start by 6.30 a.m. in winter ?
>
> Would an improved service be able to get walkers/climbers back after 8.00 p.m. in winter, and 10.00 p.m. in summer

Most people are not doing long days like that. They're starting around 9 and finishing around 5-6. See what I said above about 80-20.

> Would the improved service be able to get hordes of DofE people back last thing at night, when there are enough of them (and others of course) to fill 3 buses at the end of the day ?

Back where? DoE expeditions are human-powered, that's the point. You can start and end them at public transport nodes - I did for mine.

> Just who do you think would drive the buses at all hours, and how much do you think this would cost ?

If the fares income is there, running them would be profitable. And employment isn't high around there - offer the jobs at a reasonable wage and people will take them.
Post edited at 11:22
ianstevens - on 13 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

Exactly. And if there was demand for transport at those times, the service could be adapted to accomodate it.
GrahamD - on 13 Jan 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

Well 'demand' is a bit open ended. Clearly there is demand if the service is more cost effective and convenient than the alternatives.
elliott92 - on 13 Jan 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

I have to disagree with that one. A lot of people will pay 20 quid a day if they are going to go up there once to tick it off the bucket list, get the summit selfie and lay their claim to having climbed the mighty Snowdon.

Those who the extra price of parking would hit are us that go regularly. Who know the mountain through our many visits to all of its corners. Who respect and look after the mountain. Its the people that actually give a shit that would be affected by an even steeper parking charge
ads.ukclimbing.com
In reply to elliott92:
Us that go regularly know not to do this:
http://i4.dailypost.co.uk/incoming/article11240069.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/cars.jpg

That shows there's already an established and sustainable way to take money from the irresponsible, and it's one that I'm sure the council will be happy to continue. But then the council probably won't spend it on block paving ways up Snowdon, so all those tourists might still have to walk on a less than perfectly maintained footpath.
Post edited at 14:22
Bulls Crack - on 20:26 Sat
In reply to richprideaux:

The irony being that most hill famers are subsidised with tax-payers money to keep such farming going. If that money were to go directly to visitor management say, you'd have a very different environment, but perhaps one that would more accurately reflect the current economic imperatives.

Ideally, I'd like to see more money being made available to visitor management - with all the benefits that brings to local economies and wider public goods - and having some support for hill famers, but they system doesn't work like that at the moment.

richprideaux - on 20:35 Sat
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

That council income goes nowhere near the NPA.
richprideaux - on 20:40 Sat
In reply to Bulls Crack:

I would say that virtually every hill farm is subsidised, it just might not be going to the person who actually farms the land.

The farming of the uplands is an ecological disaster, doesn't feed the nation nor clothe us. It's quite difficult to fathom a legitimate reason for the practice to continue. Or maybe it's just part of a corrupt agricultural payments system that favours landowners not the public.
Neil Williams - on 10:12 Sun
In reply to elliott92:
> Those who the extra price of parking would hit are us that go regularly. Who know the mountain through our many visits to all of its corners. Who respect and look after the mountain. Its the people that actually give a shit that would be affected by an even steeper parking charge

Depends what you mean by regularly. If you mean a couple of times a year, then 20 quid is still less than a fiver each split between a full[1] car. If you mean someone who works on the mountain as a guide or similar, season tickets or multi-use tickets of some kind could be offered at a more attractive rate, perhaps.

[1] Because of limited space at Pen y Pass, one thing to be very much encouraged is for groups to meet at the P&R car park, get into one car and drive up together, even if coming from multiple destinations. Again, a steep price split between say 5 is not that steep. And the ability to pre-reserve and pay online would allow people to make such a plan beforehand.
Post edited at 10:13
wercat on 18:13 Sun
In reply to Neil Williams:

a full car isn't always full of incomes
Neil Williams - on 18:46 Sun
In reply to wercat:

No, but compared with other costs relating to a trip it's very minor.
wercat on 08:34 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

Looking at it that way I suppose one could think there is no probem with numbers parking or on Snowdon, individually, as each car/visitor is tiny compared with the whole.

For a trip to Snowdonia every individual cost item contributes to making the trip as a whole affordable or unaffordable, Go/No Go.
Neil Williams - on 08:45 Mon
In reply to wercat:

> For a trip to Snowdonia every individual cost item contributes to making the trip as a whole affordable or unaffordable, Go/No Go.

Or change it a bit, e.g. walk up from Llanberis instead of Pen y Pass. Or take the bus up the Pass from the P&R.

The PyP car park is a limited resource - I see no particular reason not to increase the Park's income in the only way it really can by charging fairly heavily for it (and to manage the demand). I also think pre-booking spaces would have merit, as if you knew you didn't have a space you could alter your plans in advance, e.g. leaving earlier to give time to use the P&R.
Jim Hamilton - on 12:35 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:
> Or change it a bit, e.g. walk up from Llanberis instead of Pen y Pass. Or take the bus up the Pass from the P&R.

> I also think pre-booking spaces would have merit, as if you knew you didn't have a space you could alter your plans in advance, e.g. leaving earlier to give time to use the P&R.

Presumably people who park round the PyG already know they are not likely to get in at the PyP, unless they are very early, but prefer to park (and pay) there and walk the extra mile up the road, rather than use the park and ride.
Post edited at 12:35
wercat on 18:10 Mon
In reply to Neil Williams:

Not against the principle, but the park and ride needs to be priced for all pockets. I would like to see something for YHA users at Pen y Pass as it can be a bit awkward, though I haven't stayed there for a while
Neil Williams - on 22:42 Mon
In reply to wercat:

The easiest thing for that would probably be for the YHA to handle it themselves by having a small minibus driven by a member of staff that just comes down to the P&R car park and gets you on demand.
GrahamD - on 10:21 Tue
In reply to Neil Williams:

How about something really radical: Really good path from Pen y G up to Llyn Llydaw and down to Nant Peris. Then really strictly enforced parking limits in between - early bird catches the worm etc.

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