UKC

Just back from La Grave. Among other ice screws, took a couple I'd bought years ago from a chap going round the campsites in Chamonix.

They said Salewa on them, both on a label which featured details of strengh ratings and also emobossed on the handle/hanger.

Anyway, haven't used them much until now, although they've gone into hard ice ok.

But my climbing partner managed to bash the teeth inwards by jabbing frozen waterfalls with them in an effort to get the screw started.

Is this supposed to happen? Are my icescrews seriously unsafe? Has anyone else got any with any good or bad experiences?

In reply to Lightweight: If they were salewa why were they being flogged by a bloke going around the campsite? Did he had a russian accent?

I take it these scews at titanium.

It never happened with my Camp bought in a shop screws - but to be honest I haven't place one for years because I use steel ones only now.

In reply to Lightweight:

they may well have been fakes. i'm not complaining - they were cheap, and i think the guy probably was russian.

i'm just wondering if they're safe, if other people have had this problem, etc.

In reply to Lightweight:

I have been told not to get screw started by using the teeth to chip at the ice, as it does tend to blunt them or similar. Best to start off a little hole with your axe before getting the screw off your harness (which is all very well from the warmth of an office but when geting pumped on ice....)

In reply to laaljohn:

1) Don't bash 'em. Look at the cross section of the root of the tooth. Small, innit ? Compare with paperclips, staples (can't think of any better examples straight off) - weak, aren't they ? Those teeth are designed for cutting, not bashing. You wanna bash, buy drive-ins. Place the screw gently against the ice, lean and twist (together.) Make a hole first, it may well help. Your aim is to get the threads to drag the screw into the ice.

2) Titanium is stiffer and MUCH harder to bend than steel, on the basis of my experience of small hand-working of both materials. If experienced ice climbers tell me that the alloys in Ti screws are different, I bow to that.

3) If some dodgy bloke on a campsite offers you a cheap screw, can you really expect satisfaction ?

Y

In reply to Lightweight:
I've been using IRBIS (i.e. Russian) ice screws for quite a while - not the state of art solution but definitely a lightweight and cheap one. I don't know if yours are really Salewa (they do pretty good stuff) or re-baptised IRBIS screws. Assuming the latter, I would still see them as safe. If the teeth bend - straighten them; you can do it with some pliers or a 50p coin (I know - they're that soft...). Try not to drive them in with the hammer nor to stab the ice with them - use a starter hole with the ice pick. That would protect them more. Overall I would use them to 'beef up' the rack rather than as the only source of ice protection. My practice is to use them in places where I don't feel like using a steel-head ice screw but still would like some protection.
Best,
Cosmin

In reply to Yanchik:
Depends what you mean by stiff I suppose but the modulus of elasticity (what engineers mean by stiff) of Steel is around 200-210GPa whereas Titanium is around 105-120GPa or about half as stiff.

I do enjoy some metallurgical pendantry late in the afternoon.

In reply to Horse: What would the pendant be made of and why?

In reply to CENSORED:
Quip u for Leisure in Bristol will get your screws professionally sharpened for £5 a screw.

In reply to Horse:

I should declare my hand. I trained as an aero engineer but never got very excited by the "recipe book subject" (as we used to refer to "materials".) So somewhere in my notes I have all there is worthwhile to know about Al and Ti alloys, and a tiny bit on steel, but that's where it stays - in my notes !

I'm honestly surprised that Ti (bulk properties) is half as stiff as steel; it really doesn't feel that way when worked with hand tools. Are we talking about the same alloys (there are only about two relevant Ti alloys, and the Russian equivalents are so similar as makes no odds) ? It may be that specific stiffness (stiffness per unit mass) is what's confusing me.

Now, pedantry is what's required here. If we consider that cross-sectional area again... The problem that the OP has run into is he's reached the elastic limit of the metal at the outside of the bend, by bashing. Have you got any figures for that for Ti ? Or is your analysis different ?

I take the same view on Russian screws. Use them if you know what you're doing. There are a variety of different designs and qualities out there - surprisingly - and some look much better than others. If they've been "re-branded", frankly I wouldn't be interested, personally.

Y

In reply to Yanchik:

Bloody typical, another engineer who ignores the materials

Yes the specific stiffness as described would be much better for Ti, or Al or indeed Magnesium. But it really doesn't have that much effect on forming, although the more elastic something is the less force is required to form something. What makes Ti, and for that matter stainless steel, difficult to work with is the high degree of plasticity and the ability to work harden. As one starts to form the material it gets progressively stronger and therefore becomes increasingly difficult to work with. Yes we can work harden steel but it does not have the same capacity as Ti.

I suspect what the OP has done is actually to cold form the part where it has been bent over. This should mean it is stronger although the elasticity might be down. It wouldn't overly concern me although the shape might make it a bit of b*gger to get into the ice. As to cheap or second hand screws I would be very wary.