UKC

From Kev Howett's brief summary:

"No complete consensus was reached, although all did agree that there was space for sport-style mixed venues such as the lower tier of Beinn Udlaidh.."

Er, did we? Was there and don't recall any such consensus. Has the MCofS just rubber-stamped mass-bolting on a mountain crag? Not neccessarily against in this particular instance, but maintain that a democratic mandate has yet to be established.

JAMIE B>

In reply to Jamie B not logged in:
Good call Jamie.
Although i didn't attend this prestiguous event (had to see the family, lived on the wrong side of the country, i have serious *issues* with said *representative* body, etc, etc) ...can confirm from email correspondance that *all* who attended certainly did NOT agree "that there was space for sport-style mixed venues such as the lower tier of Beinn Udlaigh". What exactly is said writer of your quoted piece ON Jamie?

Be nice to think SOMEBODY other than Stac gave a monkeys about this. Or are you just going to wait until AFTER the bolts have appeared to get on your high horses?

JAMIE B>

In reply to Stac Pollaidh:
What exactly is said writer of your quoted piece ON Jamie?

Dear Stac

Power and glory.

Norrie

In reply to Jamie B not logged in: No, you're right mate. I was there and I don't remember everyone agreeing that the bolting of the lower tier at Beinn Ulaidh was a good idea either. Why would the official report be slanted in this way do you think? Could it be that the MCof S is particularly keen on Mr Muir and it's activities because his "successes" are good publicity for them? And I hate to bring it up again but the promised prize draw never took place on the night and I've had no reply to my e-mail asking why.

In reply to Jamie B not logged in:

I think it's time we all grew up and realised that bolting is the way forward

In reply to Jamie B not logged in:

Well this straw poll of Scottish based climbers would suggest that outside of the Ice Factor a very different view is taken: http://www.scottishclimbs.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1186&sid=b33c7126c...

In reply to Jamie B not logged in:
I think that the venue was not at all apropriate and the 'debate' was only there as some gimmik in the launch party.
I was climbing new lines in the N.w. in amazing conditions. I wanted to go to the debate but like hell i was going to drive away from perfect conditions on one of the most famous walls in scotland to go to there.
I asked Mr Howett if he would like me to organise a large and most probably free venue in the central belt (probably edinburgh) on a midweek evening, but did i get any response at all?
Now i see that this debate may end up being a white wash (i haven't yet seen the original sourse of the quotes yet though).
Does the McofS wish to become as irelivent to Scottish mountaineering as other organisations seem to be coming?

Perhaps a non Mcofs debate should be organised in the lowlands anyway as they seem totally uninterested.

Personally i have a mind that is open to be changed VIA debate, i have my own thoughts but i'm keen for these to be challened by inteligent argument and disscusion.
james e

In reply to James Edwards:
Having read the original article in Scottish Mountaineer (the MCoS free porn mag for those wondering where the quote came from) I was quite surprised to see such a 'consensus' could be achieved at a one off social event. I was under the impression from the way the mass debate was advertised it was meant to be just that. I didn't realise that the current (dubious) guidelines on what, where and how you can poke things with pointy sticks were going to be rewritten based on the opinions of invited guest speakers.

In response to your suggested gathering James, go for it, if you organise it anyway the MCoS (or Mr. Howett) might actaully take some notice. If you decied to do it and want a hand with anything give me a shout.

In reply to James Edwards: Considering Kev Howett's stand against sport climbing in summer it does seem odd... Perhaps it was a case of hastily written summary which wasn't really written very well?

James, was just flicking through OTE in a big bookshop in central Helsinki - and there you were on your route on Beinn Bhann. Nice one! World famous now! I did think you looked a bit of a punter with your ski poles strapped to your pack though. Don't you find they snag on everything?

In reply to TobyA:

>>Considering Kev Howett's stand against sport climbing in summer it does seem odd

Think he was party to the Benny Beg bolt up?

In reply to Removed User:

But as I mentioned in that thread there is no opportunity to vote for no bolts at all, at least the majority went for the least bolts option.

Bolts are cheating, it'll be ladders next!!!

Steve

In reply to Andy Lole:

Count me in as well.

Steve

In reply to GFoz: My impression was that he was quite anti-sport climbing, but a) this was nearly 10 years ago when I was living in Scotland, and b) I might have been wrong. Perhaps working for a national body makes you more consensus minded.

In reply to Jamie B.:

I reckon bolts are likely to appear at some point, although it's interesting that the guys who've been dabbling with 'M-style' climbing here in Scotland have resisted the temptation so far. I personally don't have a major issue with them, as long as they're not placed on a crag where there's existing trad routes. It's a lot better (and more honest) than deliberately leaving trad pro in-situ.

At the end of the day it's not up the MCofS or any other 'representative organisation' to decide how people climb - it's up to individual climbers and future generations who repeat their routes.

If someone bolted said crag on Beinn Udlaidh, and hundreds of folk started climbing there each winter, it would suit me just fine - I'll be on my "High Horse", roaming free in the wild north west !

In reply to Rye Gob:

Lets be clear about this- the only valid place for bolts is gritstone :-D

M style climbing is easily and cheaply accessible abroad- not necessary in the UK.

In reply to d hunter:

At massive environmental costs for the cheap transport!

In reply to CENSORED:

Stuff the environment- I ll be dead soon anyway...

In reply to Rye Gob:


So what will you do when someone bolts the wild north west? Where then?

In reply to Rye Gob: "I personally don't have a major issue with them, as long as they're not placed on a crag where there's existing trad routes"

jesus christ man!! and what if its an unclimbed crag which has unclimbed trad routes? as you, more than most, are aware, theres still some of these about, particularly in your wild NW stomping ground!

In reply to d hunter: "M style climbing is easily and cheaply accessible abroad- not necessary in the UK."

hear hear

In reply to EB:

How come you guys have got such an issue with bolts but not with trad gear deliberately left in-situ ? Or pegs in summer ? It's all the same to me.

My point is that what we do is largely 'controlled' by how others see it and respond to it - not by policies, guidelines or any other such bullshit. Christ, work is bad enough without beaurocracy spreading into the freedom of the hills. If someone bolted a big unclimbed crag in the north west which would otherwise have been suited to trad climbing, there would be a rather unpleasant outcome for they who placed the bolts.

I can sleep at night with that as comfort enough.

In reply to Rye Gob:

I suppose, you don't have to permanently change the rock to place a peg or nut as you do with a bolt. And some one can always remove insitu trad gear. But leaving stuff behind is messy whether it is permanent or not.

In reply to Rye Gob: I do have an issue with trad gear deliberately left in-situ, and pegs in summer, and turf placed in cracks by abseil, and pre-inspecting routes, and headpointing, but bolts on any winter crag is definitely a step in the wrong direction,
to me, a wee scrappy tier of beinn udlaidh should be treated with the same ethical policing as the Mainreachan Buttress, bolting should either be allowed or not allowed, there can be no middle ground.