UKC

I am just learning to lead and wondered about the advantages of different methods of tying on to an anchor, specifically:

1 attaching to a locking karabiner with a clove hitch
this is the obvious way to attach to an anchor but requires more locking karabiners.

2 tying a figure of eight on bight around the loop used to tie in with.

this does not require extra karabiners, but is it safe?

In reply to Harry Munk:

Why does clove hitching need more karabiners? Both methods need one per piece of gear surely? Or am I missing something?

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:

Having thought for a moment, I assume you mean using the rope on more than one piece of gear, which would requier an extra crab at the tying in point. Better in that case to use a super long sling to equalise the anchors, then clip into a loop knotted into the bottom of said sling.

apologies for the lack of clarity. describing knots is clearly an art form. what i mean is tying a second figure of eight around the loop that you used to tie in with. it does not require a karabiner as far as i am aware. it is on p84 of "the handbook of climbing" - i just want confirmation from anyone who uses it, that it is safe.

In reply to Harry Munk:

Used in some instances and perfectly safe

In reply to Harry Munk:
The advantage of the clove hitch at the anchor point (anchor in reach) and clove hitch at your harness via a Karabiner (anchor out of reach) is that it is easy to get the correct the length of the belay so that you can sit/stand comfortably with no slack in the system and with multiple anchors balanced correctly.

Try tying two bowlines into your rope loop in you harness and then put your belay plate in and you will soon find that things are very crowded as well as the length problems.

Be aware, that you will get many different opinions on this forum most of which are safe, but some of which may not be! So get some tuition if you are unsure.

In reply to Harry Munk: I am pretty certain that I know what you mean.

I always use the fig8 tie in method because as you say it saves a krab. The fig8 is perfectly safe, as long as it is tied correctly of course, and I can see no advantage in the extra krab with clove hitch method.

In reply to slkdjalsdk: Other than adjustability? If there is such a word! Figure 8 is safe though.

In reply to Harry Munk: In theory fig8 in to rope is safer cos it removes a link in the safety chain (the krab). However gear is soooo safe and overspecified, in practice it dont matter.

Clove hitch to krab is probably easiset to manage and adjust and most economical of rope and is common practice.

In reply to Richard Bradley: They are both the same as regards adjustability ie you need both hands to untie the knot adjust and retie using either method. And they are both easy to get the right length first go.

The method I am talking about is clipping the rope through the anchor as a runner, taking up the belay stance then feeding a bight of the rope that goes to your belayer through the rope tie-in loop and adjusting to the required snuggness. Then tie a fig8 with the bight round the rope coming back from the anchor, ie the one you formed the bight from, so that your rope tie-in loop is in one O of the fig8.

In reply to sldkfjlskdjf:

Reasonable but uses a lot of rope.

Tie a clove hitch into the anchor point but keep hold of the middle loop (cannot think of a better way to describe it). As you move back to your intended belay position, keep pulling the middle loop such that the rope to your belayer is pulled through the knot. When you are at your belay position lean towards the anchor slightly; release the loop and pull on the rope leading towards your second. You are always clipped in and you use only one Krab per anchor point. You also avoid the morasse of knots at your waist.

Bob

In reply to Harry Munk:
I've always used the fig 8 method to tie in to the belay and never had any problem. Recently, however, I did read an old article in climber that said the fig 8 tied like that, double, around the tie in loop is a weak knot as it doesn't load like a normal fig 8 and therefore isn't a lot safer than just a half hitch.

In reply to Harry Munk:
As regard to your point number two, if I remember rightly, according to the Rope Techniques book it is safe so long as it doesn't have a stupidly short tail and that the fig 8 is being tied around a rope of very similar (preferably the same) diameter. If you're in doubt after tying it you can clip the loop of the fig 8 into something suitable, just to be sure.

In reply to Andy S: I've used it myself a few times during scrambles. It's great in its simplicity and speed.

In reply to Philip M:

Interesting; I'd say that it loads EXACTLY like a "normal" fig.8. I wonder if the article writer knows what a half-hitch is!

In reply to sldkfjlskdjf:

You don't need to untie the knot if using a clove hitch, just loosen it. With a bit of practice this can be done with one hand, though there's usually no need to do this anyway.

In reply to Harry Munk:

Thanks for all the advice. It sounds like the fig 8 is perfectly viable as long as you have enough rope. I have just had another thought though. In either method is necessary to tie a clove hitch onto the krab attached to the anchor, or can you just let the rope run through this without a knot?

In reply to Harry Munk:

If you are going the route of tying a FO8 at the waist then you can just run the rope through the anchor krab.

Bob

In reply to Harry Munk:

I assume that you are describing a situation where your climbing rope goes off to a remote anchor and back to your harness ? Rather than a fig 8 to retie to the harness, I have seen advocated (and used) two half hitches on the bite for this purpose - very quick to tie and adjust and solid provided you leave a reasonable tail.

In reply to Harry Munk:

Yes, with both methods.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Err, if you just let the rope run through with the "clove hitch" method then isn't that just like a runner?

Bob

In reply to GrahamD:


Isn't that a clove-hitch? 2 half hitches?

In reply to Bob:

Not if you clove hitch the end onto your harness with another krab, which I think is what the OP was describing.

In reply to mike swann:

Two half hitches isn't a clove hitch. Knots are difficult to explain but a half hitch is the simplest way you could imagine of tieing on to something. If you asked someone to tie a bit of string to a post, almost certainly they'd use loads of half hitches.

In reply to mike swann:
Maybe I didn't make myself clear; try tying a double fig 8 or rethreaded fig 8 as you would to tie in to one end of the rope: notice it loads from both 'ends' of the knot. Now tie a fig 8 as a method of tying into a belay: the load goes from one 'end' to the belay, but where it goes around your tie in loop it isn't the other 'end' of the knot, the other 'end' in fact sticks out the side loose. Dunno if that makes sense, it's kinda difficult to explain but I'm pretty sure it amounts to a turn and a half hitch, but with an extra twist.

In reply to Harry Munk:

Can't resist asking this, but once your tied to your anchor, where are you going to chuck it?

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Ah, since I rarely if ever tie the anchor off at my waist I had got the wrong end of the stick. I nearly always use a clove hitch on the anchor point krab, this means that the belay area around my harness is clear.

Bob