UKC

Any suggestions?

In reply to Davod the Great: crux ak50, get it while you still can 'cos the 47 is not as good -it has a fixed lid. crux have had some production quality problems but their service is very good if you do have a complaint

In reply to gwilym: before Bob replies; this only if you need something that large, you can get away with around 30lt if you pack right

In reply to Davod the Great:

I've been using a POD sac for a couple of years, the Super Tear Drop. Bomb proof construction, strips down to cut weight, front opening zip so you can stuff it tight or reach stuff at the bottom without digging from the top. This year I am getting the 35l standard Tear Drop as the 50l is bit too big (it's really best used for Ski touring - the ski pockets on hte sides are brillant.

In reply to gwilym:

A 5l bumbag would do the job, what do you need 47l for?

In reply to Not Bob:

actually you don't need a bag, just strap all your stuff onto yourself, and if you do it right, you'll climb a lot better cause the centre of gravity's a lot closer to you than using a bag.

In reply to Davod the Great:

Ooh! me next!

It seems that the message is beginning to get across

Davod, have a look at http://www.aqvi55.dsl.pipex.com/climb/alp-gear.htm for the reasoning as to why you do not need a big sack for the alps.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

Yawn...

It's not the size of the sac, it's what you choose to put in it! Most sac's compress so well nowadays that a 50l will function perfectly as a 30l... You can then put everything inside until you start the route proper and compress down. Also it saves the hassle of kit expansion, when what was carefully packed into 30l mysteriously expands by 5l on the route...

As a result I've used a 50l sac for everything from backpacking to Alpine for years, but seldom carried more than 35l of kit in the alps...

All you need is the will-power not to fill all that lovely available space.

*disclaimer - obviously an 80l sac would be well overkill*

In reply to Paul Saunders:

Point..... miss!

Please tell me what you take with you on an alpine route that means you need a 50L sack. This is not being facetious or morally "superior" or whatever, I would just like to know. Let's say it is for a classic mixed face in summer and you bivvy rather than use huts. Mark shared kit as such.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

in the bag:

thermarest,
3 season down sleeping bag
loads and loads of chocolate....yum...(this is for myself only)
marsh mellos (for barbacuing...a must!)
goretex jacket
belay jacket
water bottle
spare gloves
mitts
half of a double rope
survival bag

share:

gear
stove
pots and pans, knife fork and spoon + chopsticks
food, lots of it
bothy bag
quaser
first aid kit

outside bag
harness
crampons
ice axes

Wearing:

base layers,
softshell,
goretex bottom (I prefer wearing these all the time cause my legs don't sweat much anyway)
helmet
socks
technical mountain boots
Gaiters
watch
neck gaiter/scaf
a wooly hat
gloves
sun glasses

OK, the marsh mellos are just to take the piss and suprise my mates - taste beautiful when you place them in the flame for a bit. I'd replace the neck gaiters and wooly hat with a buff and balaclava when I have the money to upgrade.

I'm not here to proof a point or anything, just thinking of what I should take with me in 2 weeks time going to Chamonix and the Eigar. I supose I can take less but I'll probably enjoy the journey less (e.g. without the extra chocolate, food, bivi rather than quaser etc) And I'll probably need a 50l sac for all that - but I only have a 35l one! : )

To be fair though, for most people having the option to expand to 50l is probably quite useful - 30l is doable but for the more hardcore and experienced. I obviously thought I was hardcore enough to get a 35l bag when I went shopping........regrets...

In reply to BONG:

and my camera,
guide book
map
GPS
compass
rock boots
avalanch transiver

hoho...the more I think about it, the bigger bag I need...I'll probably end up with a 100l sac at this rate!

In reply to Bob:

Point is 1 x 50l compressible < £ than multiple sacs > £
Why get a tiny sac as well? I always bought a large car for big trips, although for the run to work a Smart-car would do.

I'm not arguing about carrying too much. I agree with the go light ethos... it's just this often gets sidetracked into the pros and cons of rucksacs NOT what is neccesary to take. (I recognise that you spent some time outlining what to pack...)

To answer your question about the adantages of an under-filled larger pack it's not particularly that I couldn't fit it into 30l it's that with a compressed (in my case a 50l to 30l) sac...

1) You can pack all your kit away from light-fingered folk when in a hut.
2) You can easily stuff a belay jacket in without compressing it.
3) You can fit the rope in and keep it dry if neccessary.
4) I find a thin large profile (such as you get with a compressed larger sac) doesn't overbalance me as much as a more blocky smaller sac.
5) When rummaging around on a belay just enlarge the sac rather than take things out to get to the bottom... less chance of dropping stuff.
6) I've yet to find a 30l sac with gear loops/axe-holsters etc.
7) I can fit big boots in the sac when changing to rock boots (not a fan of approach shoes in the alps personally).
8) I can over-pack water and bin it if neccessary, without compromising space.

I firmly believe in the go-light principles, but the clue's in the name (go light) says nowt about volume or ease of use does it?

In reply to Paul Saunders:

A Single small sack is cheaper than a big sack. I use one sack, if it doesn't fit in that I empty the sack and look at what I can leave behind. Not interested in lighter stuff, just less stuff.


1) You can pack all your kit away from light-fingered folk when in a hut.
Less stuff means less to nick.

2) You can easily stuff a belay jacket in without compressing it.
A what?!!!! Get some blubber on you lad!

3) You can fit the rope in and keep it dry if neccessary.
I can do that with a 30L.

4) I find a thin large profile (such as you get with a compressed larger sac) doesn't overbalance me as much as a more blocky smaller sac.
No argument with that.

5) When rummaging around on a belay just enlarge the sac rather than take things out to get to the bottom... less chance of dropping stuff.
Pack it correctly so that you can get to stuff.

6) I've yet to find a 30l sac with gear loops/axe-holsters etc.
There used to be a Lowe one but I don't think they make it anymore. If you are on a glacier and you wish to stuff the axe away slide it down between your back and the sack.

7) I can fit big boots in the sac when changing to rock boots (not a fan of approach shoes in the alps personally).
Personal choice, I'd wear Walsh fell running shoes if I felt I could get away with it: getting to west face of Blaitiere for example.

8) I can over-pack water and bin it if neccessary, without compromising space.
Get a stronger stomach and a short length of plastic tubing then you can sup water from pools and puddles.

Seriously though, I have been asked both in real life and on the web about what to take for X, Y or Z, only to be told "Oh but I need to take this, that and the other". To which my reply is "you don't need that". Later when I ask if they succeeded it's usually a negative reply and it turns out that they were too tired from carrying "this, that and t'other". Answer? Don't take it! And if you are not taking much kit then you do not need a big sack. QED.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

>2) You can easily stuff a belay jacket in without >compressing it.
>A what?!!!! Get some blubber on you lad!

Are you going to rescue me when I'm freezing to death on a belay with just a softshell on?

>3) You can fit the rope in and keep it dry if neccessary.
>I can do that with a 30L.

Are you taking a 2mm rope!? my rope looks like at least 20L from here......

>if it doesn't fit in that I empty the sack and look at >what I can leave behind

Is that a hint for me? maybe I'll have to employ this strategy trying to pack my stuff into my 35l sac - but I'll be very upset at the end when I see that I have to leave my mersh mellos behind....so upset that I may start crying half way up and loose all motivation.....ok, maybe not.

In reply to Bob: I've still not worked out how you can possibly fit everything for a route and bivvy into a 30L sack...I struggle fitting it into a 50L and I don't think i take excess stuff:

Thermorest
Sleeping bag (down 3 season-ish)
Bivvy bag
Down jacket (ok, luxery but i do get very cold!)
Waterproof (paclite thing so v ickle)
Spare gloves
Hat
Chocolate
Food (usually cup a soup and cous cous)
Water bottle
Rope (half of a pair)
Half rack
Harness
Stove or pan + lighter and spoon
Guidebook
Map
Compass
Small first aid kit between pair
Little headtorch

Crampons and axe on outside and will take rock boots if its a rock route. Thin fleece may be in pack too if i'm hot when walking up. May have missed something little out, but don't think so...

How do I cut down from that??!

In reply to Ali: Leave out the map and compass, take a thinner sleeping bag, strap rope to outside.

In reply to Ali:

Hi Ali,

Deffed out at Wasdale, was nearly hypothermic after 9hrs in wind and drizzle and rain Duncan carried on to Black Sail before pulling out. How did your mates who were setting off at 0100 get on? Will e-mail you in the morning from work.

Back to the point...

You don't need a thermorest, if your sack has a sleeve down the back you cut up a karrimat into 2 0r 3 sections that will fit into the sleeve. Lay them end to end for sleeping on.

Assuming summer alps here onwards.

Sleeping bag: 2 season close fitting to prevent billow effect of moving around. Have been known to skip taking a pit with me.

Down jacket: don't have one

Spare gloves: take spare socks instead, they will do both jobs.

Other than that pretty well everything you mention is what I would take and it goes into a 30L sack, with axe(s) and crampons on the outside.

On the Eiger I used a 35L sack (Which Cath eventually made me chuck away (but it was brilliant)), we walked up to below the route in trainers with plastics slung on the outside but other than that everything was inside, including food for 4 bivvies (the night before and possible three for the route though we only needed two). I used the same sack on the Droites in winter so had a 4 season pit that time.

Bob

In reply to Davod the Great:

The Arc'teryx RTL 25 has axe loops (and there's a 35 litre version too). I love it. Bit too small for the Alps perhaps but I used it on Aonach Mor and the Ben this year. Everything but the helmet and the rope (strapped on the outside) fitted in.

http://www.snowandrock.com/brands/product.asp?product_sku=MAXCJ

Expensive though.

In reply to Davod the Great:

Just bought the Macpac 50L ascent (i think) and it seemed ok in the shop but out in the field it fits like a dog....too stiff by half and doesn't mould to the back.....i'm trading it in for a mammut extreme 45 or cervin 45 as they fit like a glove

In reply to Morgan Woods:

On the other hand, I've got one too and it fits me better than any pack I've ever tried. It is annoying though that the pack is slightly conical, making it hard to pack.