UKC

Following on from the 'Millar being banned from the TDF for drug abuse' thread...

Who made the real first ascents of the 8000m Himalayan peaks...ie with no oxygen or drug assistance?

Habelar and Messner on Everest in 78/79? Would this have been done sooner if so much fuss hadn't been made over the first cheated ascent?

Others? Are records kept of this sort of thing?

In reply to Ian Hill: what has this got to do with football and euro 2004?

In reply to Ian Hill:
besides aren't crampons cheating?
todays ascents maybe without oxygen, but look at the rest of the kit
who could do ascents today with 1920's kit and no oxygen
for a true first ascent i guess you gotta be naked
you better get training!

In reply to Ian Hill: Silly.

In reply to Ian Hill:

Personally, I think it's more to do with what you are claiming to have done...

Messner and Habeler without oxygen? Messner alpine style and solo without oxygen, in one push?

Nobody really doubts Messner's ascents as being out of the ordinary, but his ascents were also based on knowing that it was possible to get up there - ie information about the possible routes, conditions he was likely to face, having much better clothing, equipment etc....

Would Messner have been able to do the same if he'd been born in 1930, and was on the Hillary / Tenzing expedition using their equipment, technology and knowledge of the mountain?

Maybe, maybe not...

In reply to Dominion:

Messner's climbing ethic is an example to all, minimum of gear, no oxygen and so on but, as you say, his achievments are built on the achievments of those that went before. I'm sure he would say exactly the same thing.

We can't, and shouldn't, take away the merit of the earlier pioneers, but we can certainly admire those that push the limits further.

As for the commercial band wagons that are turning even the Himalayas into Blackpool piers, these we should not admire! but that's another story.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: well said mr hooker

In reply to Ian Hill:

Does that mean that all sub 8000 m climbs should be ascended while breathing into a paper bag? All climbs are done with Oxygen, Its just that at Stanage you don't have to carry it.

Mind you, I suppose the counter arguement would be that Everest has no oxygen in the sameway that Toyboy has no holds and you climb it as you find it.
just a thought.

In reply to Bob Dulieu: Apparently Messner's ascent was partly inspired by the knowledge that Norton had reached 28000 feet or so without oxygen in the 1920s. He relied on the achievements of those who went a very long time before.

In reply to Ian Hill:

I think doing the Big E with O is kind of cheating. Big E is 29K feet high and the Oxygen at that height is of a certain density and richness (or lack thereof). If you want to say that you climbed Big E, then you have to be able to climb breathing the O at that height. Otherwise, you climbed something lower. If using O, you have to qualify your statement that you "climbed Everest using bottled Oxygen". You can still claim that you climbed it, but you need to say "with Oxygen".

Some of you out there may argue along a similar line that the air temperature at 29K feet is so many degrees F or C so if you wear a down suit climbing Everest, you are cheating. I don't think it's the same argument. You die up there if you don't have adequate insulation; everybody does, bar none. But not everybody dies climbing without O so I think it's different.

Similarly I don't think it's cheating to wear crampons climbing Everest. Without those, you won't be able to make it up there. But Oxygen, Messner and Habeler proved first that you can get up there without.

In reply to qonbige:

Well one person who had an epic on the Ogre used to get altitude sickness at 20000 ft and have to pack up so your argument does not hold water. He did eventually get to Everest on the fourth attempt but to have done so without oxygen while all the rest were ther would have jeopordised the trip for all.

In reply to Ian Hill:


What a respectful way of asking this question ...


Yes - they are.