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This has been bothering me for a while, so any tips would be welcome.
I live in the South East, which everyone seems to think is the centre of the universe... so how come every time I go into an outdoor store, the majority of gear is for blokes and there's one piddly little section for women which has about one of each type of item in a horrific lilac colour? Not only that, but are all outdoor women amazons or something, because I'm fairly short (size 8-10, 5'3) and I can almost never find anything to fit.
Do all the outdoor companies think that girls want to:
a) dress only in horrible pastel colours (lilac being a particular favourite);
b) eat loads and not do any exercise in order to fit into the humungous sizes they provide
c) have no choice of style/colour/manufacturer (I did hear a rumour TNF had a women's range, but has anyone ever seen it?)
Before you ask, I have access to London, Croydon, Brighton etc and have STILL not found a decent outdoor store that caters for women as anything more than an afterthought. Went to Holland the other week and in Amsterdam they had an entire gigantic store catering only to women! It was brilliant! Why isn't there anything like that over here?!
I live in the South East, which everyone seems to think is the centre of the universe... so how come every time I go into an outdoor store, the majority of gear is for blokes and there's one piddly little section for women which has about one of each type of item in a horrific lilac colour? Not only that, but are all outdoor women amazons or something, because I'm fairly short (size 8-10, 5'3) and I can almost never find anything to fit.
Do all the outdoor companies think that girls want to:
a) dress only in horrible pastel colours (lilac being a particular favourite);
b) eat loads and not do any exercise in order to fit into the humungous sizes they provide
c) have no choice of style/colour/manufacturer (I did hear a rumour TNF had a women's range, but has anyone ever seen it?)
Before you ask, I have access to London, Croydon, Brighton etc and have STILL not found a decent outdoor store that caters for women as anything more than an afterthought. Went to Holland the other week and in Amsterdam they had an entire gigantic store catering only to women! It was brilliant! Why isn't there anything like that over here?!
In reply to Boredatwork:
If you tootle up to the lakes or the Peak there seem to be pretty extensive ranges in places like Outside (Hathersage and Llanberis) and Rock n Run (Ambleside).
It's a cruel suggestion but perhaps the stockists naively believe that those living in the flatlands of the southeast are more interested in wearing outdoor gear 'because it looks cool' than 'using it for outdoor pursuits'. Have a look at the North Face website for women's north face gear - was looking earlier and there's definitely non-lilac stuff on there!
If you tootle up to the lakes or the Peak there seem to be pretty extensive ranges in places like Outside (Hathersage and Llanberis) and Rock n Run (Ambleside).
It's a cruel suggestion but perhaps the stockists naively believe that those living in the flatlands of the southeast are more interested in wearing outdoor gear 'because it looks cool' than 'using it for outdoor pursuits'. Have a look at the North Face website for women's north face gear - was looking earlier and there's definitely non-lilac stuff on there!
In reply to Boredatwork: yeah not much decent womens climbing clothes - obvious i know but wear something different....
sometimes the catelogs have nice womens stuff but the guys in the shops seem to pick the rank unpractible stuff.
only way to change it is like snowboarding girls have done - create own female clothes company!
sometimes the catelogs have nice womens stuff but the guys in the shops seem to pick the rank unpractible stuff.
only way to change it is like snowboarding girls have done - create own female clothes company!
In reply to Boredatwork: I find the mens clothing fits fine and definately doesn't come in lilac!!! Yes its not perfect and a nice womens fit would be better but its better than nothing. mountain hardwear do some good womens clothing, as suggested get up to the peak and you'll find a good selection in outside.
In reply to Boredatwork: try Cotswold - it's full of blumin 'dfw' now!
In reply to Boredatwork: Anyone been to SheActive? To quote Trail, it's 'a new women-only outdoor retailer in Covent Garden', website www.sheactive.co.uk. The website is not really up & running, but claims that the shop is. It's on New Row, just off St.Martin's Lane, and typically has opened after I've left the country... List of brands looks promising, but as you say it's what they choose to stock that mattes.
In reply to Boredatwork:
patagonia do lots of women's stuff, unfortunately it's all rather expensive...
patagonia do lots of women's stuff, unfortunately it's all rather expensive...
In reply to Clare:
at the risk of sounding like an old curmudgeon.... most outdoor gear is a piece of nonsense. loose/stretchy trews and a jumper is pretty much all you ever need (winter climbing excepted).
J.
at the risk of sounding like an old curmudgeon.... most outdoor gear is a piece of nonsense. loose/stretchy trews and a jumper is pretty much all you ever need (winter climbing excepted).
J.
In reply to Adders:
Been done...Wild Roses was set up several years ago. Recently changed their name, I think:
http://www.orgear.com/windex.html
> (> only way to change it is like snowboarding girls have done - create own female clothes company!
Been done...Wild Roses was set up several years ago. Recently changed their name, I think:
http://www.orgear.com/windex.html
In reply to JJJJ.:
you're, like, totally missing the fashion/colour co-ordination/manufacturers can see you coming a mile off thing, maaaan.
you're, like, totally missing the fashion/colour co-ordination/manufacturers can see you coming a mile off thing, maaaan.
In reply to Clare:
er, possibly? my point was that you/she could just wear your ordinary non-lilac clothes from... well, wherever you/she buy clothes from. shops and things. you know. plenty of scope to be a fashion victim still, so no worries there.
J.
er, possibly? my point was that you/she could just wear your ordinary non-lilac clothes from... well, wherever you/she buy clothes from. shops and things. you know. plenty of scope to be a fashion victim still, so no worries there.
J.
In reply to Boredatwork: I dont know where to recommend but these chicks might be able to help
http://www.rockgrrl.com/
http://www.chickswithpicks.net/east.htm
http://www.chicks-unleashed.co.uk/
http://www.rockgrrl.com/
http://www.chickswithpicks.net/east.htm
http://www.chicks-unleashed.co.uk/
In reply to Boredatwork:
Ronhills come in women's versions. And children's versions, come to that. And they're suitably practical for climbing in . . . and not lilac!
>:
Ronhills come in women's versions. And children's versions, come to that. And they're suitably practical for climbing in . . . and not lilac!
>:
In reply to Boredatwork:
I've found Cotswold in Keswick to have the best women's gear around, so I suppose their catalogue would be a good place to try. Outside in Hathersage isn't bad (I live in the peak, so visit often!) but seems to lack women's technical gear at the moment. Nothing but stretchy vest tops at the mo!
At least the situation is better than a few years ago - women's gear was virtually unheard of when I bought my first winter gear, and the (mens) boots still give me blisters now!
I've found Cotswold in Keswick to have the best women's gear around, so I suppose their catalogue would be a good place to try. Outside in Hathersage isn't bad (I live in the peak, so visit often!) but seems to lack women's technical gear at the moment. Nothing but stretchy vest tops at the mo!
At least the situation is better than a few years ago - women's gear was virtually unheard of when I bought my first winter gear, and the (mens) boots still give me blisters now!
In reply to Boredatwork: I've not had a problem finding a range of clothes, just finding them to fit me. I have given up trying on walking trousers because they all seem to be tiny at the waist, huge on the hips, and too short. I've wanted some zip off trousers for ages but have always failed to find anything to fit.
In reply to helen taylor:
Exactly. Who wants beige-coloured high-waisted taped-legged trousers anyway?
They don't fit, they look dreadful, they aren't flattering and they cost 50 quid a pair. Whatever the brand.
I agree we should get ourselves down to M&S for normal stretchy trousers instead. They might rip more easily but to be honest it's worth it not to look like a freak.
And jackets are even worse - they're usually pale blue, which is stupid.
Exactly. Who wants beige-coloured high-waisted taped-legged trousers anyway?
They don't fit, they look dreadful, they aren't flattering and they cost 50 quid a pair. Whatever the brand.
I agree we should get ourselves down to M&S for normal stretchy trousers instead. They might rip more easily but to be honest it's worth it not to look like a freak.
And jackets are even worse - they're usually pale blue, which is stupid.
In reply to Boredatwork:
The North Face store opposite Ellis Brigham (has a good womens section too) Covent Garden
The North Face store opposite Ellis Brigham (has a good womens section too) Covent Garden
In reply to helen taylor:
Look in the back of the mags for people like Slioch. Damn, just looked in them and not there. However they have a website for made to measure clothing;
http://www.slioch.co.uk/
Look in the back of the mags for people like Slioch. Damn, just looked in them and not there. However they have a website for made to measure clothing;
http://www.slioch.co.uk/
In reply to Stubbed Toe:
yay for the voice of reason
J.
> (In reply to helen taylor)
>
>
> we should get ourselves down to M&S for normal stretchy trousers instead.
yay for the voice of reason
J.
In reply to JJJJ:
oh and there's always the home-made gear option. Homemade fleeces - yay! homemade trousers - they actually fit! woohoo!
oh and there's always the home-made gear option. Homemade fleeces - yay! homemade trousers - they actually fit! woohoo!
In reply to Boredatwork:
There's always Thaw clothing:
http://www.thawonline.co.uk/sitehomenew.htm
I'm 5"3, live in London and just tend to go into the shops to get a rough idea of sizes before ordering online from cheaper stockists. They obviously don't feel that the market justifies a store solely aimed at women just yet because like it or lump it ladies we're still in the minority when it comes to doing outdoors stuff.
There's always Thaw clothing:
http://www.thawonline.co.uk/sitehomenew.htm
I'm 5"3, live in London and just tend to go into the shops to get a rough idea of sizes before ordering online from cheaper stockists. They obviously don't feel that the market justifies a store solely aimed at women just yet because like it or lump it ladies we're still in the minority when it comes to doing outdoors stuff.
In reply to Boredatwork:
I remember a fantastic thread from ages ago in which someone was saying 'what's wrong with wearing tracksuit bottoms from the market for climbing?' He got completely abused in a 'but you have to have the right trousers' kind of way until people looked at his profile and realised that he climbed way harder than most of them ever would. It all went very quiet after that... I guess to echo JJJJ it really doesn't matter what you wear as long as you're out there doing it... or something...
I remember a fantastic thread from ages ago in which someone was saying 'what's wrong with wearing tracksuit bottoms from the market for climbing?' He got completely abused in a 'but you have to have the right trousers' kind of way until people looked at his profile and realised that he climbed way harder than most of them ever would. It all went very quiet after that... I guess to echo JJJJ it really doesn't matter what you wear as long as you're out there doing it... or something...
In reply to Emma Wheeler: I went to SheActive about 4 weeks ago and I have to say it was pretty useless. Loads of Jane Fonda stylie workoutout gear and some trendy type walking gear but nothing in any technical fabrics. I definitely wouldn't waste my time going back there, especially when Snow+Rock is just round the corner and they had loads of womens gear. The new Cotswold store on Piccadilly opened last Tues and I'm going to check it out tomorrow but if it's anything like as useless as the other 2 'London' branches, I doubt I'll be going back there either.
In reply to Hayley Dyer:
Ah-ha, I was about to mention Thaw - just make women's outdoor gear - towards the expensive end of the market, but excellent technical fabrics, and I've worn my trousers so much they've been great value.
Wild Roses are good, too (but the wrong shape for trousers for me) - I don't think they have a UK importer at the moment, but were stocked all over the Pyrenees.
Besides that, most of the major manufacturers do make women's ranges, though not always in the more technical ends of their ranges (after all, girlies don't go out in winter, do they?) - but not everywhere stocks them. But they do tend to assume you're about 5ft 6 (fortunately I am!). Only a few people make smaller lengths - Paramo (practical, but not elegant) do, Thaw might?
As for the trend to make everything in girly blue (or this year lilac) - yuck! But practically, at least it makes it easy to find the women's clothes section - after all, only Patagonia would dream of making blokes' jackets in lilac!!
Ah-ha, I was about to mention Thaw - just make women's outdoor gear - towards the expensive end of the market, but excellent technical fabrics, and I've worn my trousers so much they've been great value.
Wild Roses are good, too (but the wrong shape for trousers for me) - I don't think they have a UK importer at the moment, but were stocked all over the Pyrenees.
Besides that, most of the major manufacturers do make women's ranges, though not always in the more technical ends of their ranges (after all, girlies don't go out in winter, do they?) - but not everywhere stocks them. But they do tend to assume you're about 5ft 6 (fortunately I am!). Only a few people make smaller lengths - Paramo (practical, but not elegant) do, Thaw might?
As for the trend to make everything in girly blue (or this year lilac) - yuck! But practically, at least it makes it easy to find the women's clothes section - after all, only Patagonia would dream of making blokes' jackets in lilac!!
In reply to Clare:
if you have the skill and confidence to cut out all the vile fascionist profiteering on our insecurities by making your own clothes then you are rich indeed. we, who are about to dye, salute you.
J.
if you have the skill and confidence to cut out all the vile fascionist profiteering on our insecurities by making your own clothes then you are rich indeed. we, who are about to dye, salute you.
J.
In reply to sutty: they're pretty good - i ordered a jacket from them a while back and they rang me up to check that I realy wanted one that samll! and then they realised that they couldn't fit pocket zips on a jacket that small so did velcro instead and gave me a free hat!
In reply to JJJJ:
although you do run the (extremely rare) risk of them falling apart at whim, as happened the other week
although you do run the (extremely rare) risk of them falling apart at whim, as happened the other week
In reply to JJJJ:
It's not *that* hard!
(Currently sporting a home-made waistcoat. Not a very technical one, though. :
It's not *that* hard!
(Currently sporting a home-made waistcoat. Not a very technical one, though. :
In reply to Clare:
That's all very well until you follow this line and your mate sends you the pictures: Grey cheap fleece and grey cheap trousers on grey rock on a grey day. I'll never be in a cover shot that way.
He also took a short motion sequence - at least in that the movement, though slow, allows the intrepid climber to be spotted.
> I guess to echo JJJJ it really doesn't matter what you wear as long as you're out there doing it... or something...
That's all very well until you follow this line and your mate sends you the pictures: Grey cheap fleece and grey cheap trousers on grey rock on a grey day. I'll never be in a cover shot that way.
He also took a short motion sequence - at least in that the movement, though slow, allows the intrepid climber to be spotted.
In reply to Boredatwork: i'm also fairly small (5'4'', size 10), & the problem with buying men's stuff is that the size smalls are still too big (especially lengthways). this problem also extends to decent fitting rucksacks, gloves & boots (i'm a size 3, so winter boots are a nightmare). i've found the marmot range to be the best so far, although not many places stock it - try urban rock at the westway/castle, or needlesports in keswick do mail order if you know your size (i'm usually a marmot women's small). it's not really cheap, but not extortionately expensive either.
In reply to JJJJ.:
Not sure I'd like it there. I've heard the Utah Saints and they seem much rowdier than I'd expect of Mormons.
>
> the solutionm is simple: move to Utah
> the solutionm is simple: move to Utah
Not sure I'd like it there. I've heard the Utah Saints and they seem much rowdier than I'd expect of Mormons.
In reply to Boredatwork:
PS.... to be honest, it's not necessarily the manufacturers who have decided that women only want to dress in pastel colours, the shops play a part too. Many of the clothes are made in other colours (usually black, but sometimes more imaginative....) but often only one colour's stocked. So join my campaign to whinge at the poor shop staff in the hope that they'll order a better colour next time (OK, so it's not much use in Cotwsold, but you do have some influence in the smaller shops!).
PPS..... I don't understand the sizing system either - I'm about 5 ft 7 and size 10-12 - and yet women's size small is either a good fit, or slightly on the large side. I know plenty of 'outdoor' women much smaller than me, and not many a great deal larger, so there's room for some smaller sizes, surely?! (Honorable mention goes to Thaw and Wild Roses, who do make clothes too small for me to fit into - though it's not good for my ego!)
PS.... to be honest, it's not necessarily the manufacturers who have decided that women only want to dress in pastel colours, the shops play a part too. Many of the clothes are made in other colours (usually black, but sometimes more imaginative....) but often only one colour's stocked. So join my campaign to whinge at the poor shop staff in the hope that they'll order a better colour next time (OK, so it's not much use in Cotwsold, but you do have some influence in the smaller shops!).
PPS..... I don't understand the sizing system either - I'm about 5 ft 7 and size 10-12 - and yet women's size small is either a good fit, or slightly on the large side. I know plenty of 'outdoor' women much smaller than me, and not many a great deal larger, so there's room for some smaller sizes, surely?! (Honorable mention goes to Thaw and Wild Roses, who do make clothes too small for me to fit into - though it's not good for my ego!)
In reply to Wingnut: i've got a pair of womens ronhills and I have to say the blokes fitted me better.. This isn't becasue I'm bloke shaped either, I'm pretty curvy, but the womens waist comes up to my boobs and it still looks like I need a pair of bollocks to 'fill' them properly!
Leg length is the worst problem I find. I've also just bought a new pair of scarpa summer boots, they were powder blue... I wore them up Sron na Lairig and now they are muddy grey..
Leg length is the worst problem I find. I've also just bought a new pair of scarpa summer boots, they were powder blue... I wore them up Sron na Lairig and now they are muddy grey..
In reply to Carolyn:
we considerably increased our size range and the number of models of womens trousers in stock over the past couple of years. we now have more styles of womens trousers than mens in the cragging-fashion area. We still sell far far more mens than womens. there are several problems
fit- women are choosier about fit than men and seem to vary more in leg length etc.
numbers- few women seem to want to buy outdoor trousers. we are now rather overstocked.
colours- we cant just do black or it looks bad on the shelf- though black is really the only colour that sells well in womens. women dont go for the other colours though so selling them is hard.
you can moan at us all you want but we have tried and women dont want em.
ball rather savagely volleyed back into your court
:-D
we considerably increased our size range and the number of models of womens trousers in stock over the past couple of years. we now have more styles of womens trousers than mens in the cragging-fashion area. We still sell far far more mens than womens. there are several problems
fit- women are choosier about fit than men and seem to vary more in leg length etc.
numbers- few women seem to want to buy outdoor trousers. we are now rather overstocked.
colours- we cant just do black or it looks bad on the shelf- though black is really the only colour that sells well in womens. women dont go for the other colours though so selling them is hard.
you can moan at us all you want but we have tried and women dont want em.
ball rather savagely volleyed back into your court
:-D
In reply to Li'l Zé:
only, unfortunately i've just remembered, you're not allowed to climb it. but you can stand next to it at sunset and show up beautifully. trifle expensive for a fashion shoot, though. perhaps you could consider Torridonian sandstone as a budget alternative?
J.
only, unfortunately i've just remembered, you're not allowed to climb it. but you can stand next to it at sunset and show up beautifully. trifle expensive for a fashion shoot, though. perhaps you could consider Torridonian sandstone as a budget alternative?
J.
In reply to Boredatwork:
im 5 foot 10 and a size 8-10 although more a 8 and i dont have that much trouble. i dont go for the girlie colours either and have still managed to get stuff thats been great in creamblack etc.
someone said that mountain hardwear do great womens stuff and they are right. the north face new range a5 do great womens bottoms too.
the best places to get gear imho is in the areas that you do your thing ie not town shops.
donnala
im 5 foot 10 and a size 8-10 although more a 8 and i dont have that much trouble. i dont go for the girlie colours either and have still managed to get stuff thats been great in creamblack etc.
someone said that mountain hardwear do great womens stuff and they are right. the north face new range a5 do great womens bottoms too.
the best places to get gear imho is in the areas that you do your thing ie not town shops.
donnala
In reply to Boredatwork:
Agree that it is difficult to find clothes and backpacks that fit. Met recently the head of design for backpacks of a large outdoor brand and when I explained the gap in the market for a technical climbing women's size pack he retorted that if he made one it would hardly sell.
I tend to adapt clothing to my requirements, like add zipps where I need them.
Agree that it is difficult to find clothes and backpacks that fit. Met recently the head of design for backpacks of a large outdoor brand and when I explained the gap in the market for a technical climbing women's size pack he retorted that if he made one it would hardly sell.
I tend to adapt clothing to my requirements, like add zipps where I need them.
In reply to Boredatwork:
Interestingly, Patagonia will be doing every technical summer jacket in their summer 05 range in women's fit. The big question is:
Are there enough women interested in buying top end technical product? It will be excellent value and genuinely innovative (no Gore labels though). Our recent experience would suggest not. I'd really like to be proven wrong on this...
Interestingly, Patagonia will be doing every technical summer jacket in their summer 05 range in women's fit. The big question is:
Are there enough women interested in buying top end technical product? It will be excellent value and genuinely innovative (no Gore labels though). Our recent experience would suggest not. I'd really like to be proven wrong on this...
In reply to Boredatwork:
I agree that womens clothing leaves alot to be desired but I find this comment offensive. I find many clothes, tops in particular don't fit because they are too small. Probably because I have a bust, something that is common in many females but certainly is not taken account of by manufacturers of tops and especially jackets for women. For instance they put the pockets exactly where your bust is which means a) they don't fit comfortably and b) it is impossible to put things in my pocket without looking even larger backpaks are worse as the straps are painful!!!!....and yes I do excercise (as well as rock climbing and walking, I run about 50 miles a week, run marathons and fell running, my bmi is well within normal limits for my age and sex and I am very particular about my diet). So please don't resort to insults just because you can't get a pair of trousers to fit in a part of the country where outdoor clothing is probably not a great seller. If you try outide in Hathersage I think you'll find it is the mens clothing section that is being squeezed out by the womens.
> b) eat loads and not do any exercise in order to fit into the humungous sizes they provide
I agree that womens clothing leaves alot to be desired but I find this comment offensive. I find many clothes, tops in particular don't fit because they are too small. Probably because I have a bust, something that is common in many females but certainly is not taken account of by manufacturers of tops and especially jackets for women. For instance they put the pockets exactly where your bust is which means a) they don't fit comfortably and b) it is impossible to put things in my pocket without looking even larger backpaks are worse as the straps are painful!!!!....and yes I do excercise (as well as rock climbing and walking, I run about 50 miles a week, run marathons and fell running, my bmi is well within normal limits for my age and sex and I am very particular about my diet). So please don't resort to insults just because you can't get a pair of trousers to fit in a part of the country where outdoor clothing is probably not a great seller. If you try outide in Hathersage I think you'll find it is the mens clothing section that is being squeezed out by the womens.
In reply to Boredatwork: I have been amazed at how many shops I've walked into lookign for overtrousers and said "have you got anything in my size?" and been turned away (I'm 5'4") - that's before you olook at price, style, fit etc. For overtrousers I buy kids ones, jackets men's small and most of the rest of the stuff I climb in is not outdoor brands.
I have quite an amusing moment trying on B3s eg the la Sportiva Nepal Extremes as they look very cute in size 5!
I have quite an amusing moment trying on B3s eg the la Sportiva Nepal Extremes as they look very cute in size 5!
In reply to d hunter:
Women don't buy the outdoor trousers cos all of the outdoor brands seem to be the weirdest fit possible! As has been said earlier in this thread, they’re all high, narrow waists, voluminous around the bum and have really narrow ankles. You end up looking like a balloon. Get the impression that these items are aimed at middle-aged ramblers.
That said, the North Face – esp A5- are good and have lots of khaki. Khaki is always that way forward!
Women don't buy the outdoor trousers cos all of the outdoor brands seem to be the weirdest fit possible! As has been said earlier in this thread, they’re all high, narrow waists, voluminous around the bum and have really narrow ankles. You end up looking like a balloon. Get the impression that these items are aimed at middle-aged ramblers.
That said, the North Face – esp A5- are good and have lots of khaki. Khaki is always that way forward!
In reply to Boredatwork:
I forgot to say probably the most important thing - Why do designers never cosnider the fact that women have to practically undress just to have a pee???? The harness is OK but noting else!!! Patagonia trialed some trousers and complemetanry knickers with 'flies' designed to enable women to have a pee without risking frostbite or indecent exposure accusations with respect to their nether regions, sadly this inovation never seemed to get to the shops. Functionality is what we should be moaning about, not colour or whether we look good.
I forgot to say probably the most important thing - Why do designers never cosnider the fact that women have to practically undress just to have a pee???? The harness is OK but noting else!!! Patagonia trialed some trousers and complemetanry knickers with 'flies' designed to enable women to have a pee without risking frostbite or indecent exposure accusations with respect to their nether regions, sadly this inovation never seemed to get to the shops. Functionality is what we should be moaning about, not colour or whether we look good.
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