That's a whole can of worms you just opened up there dude!

In reply to all those who posted on this thread. ...sorry, but there seems to have been a technical glitch when I deleted a replicated message - all the other ones have disappeared (I'm sure we'll retrieve them!) In reply to Ian P. Glad you agree - ground up is where it's at, but preferably not drilling as you go. It would be nice to summarise the document which is a bit unwieldy. To those who say these things achieve little - I think half the battle is getting the issues out into the public domain and making 'ordinary' climbers feel as though it's relevant to them.

Many thanks for the summary Ian. Personally, I'm with Ken on the need to learn the essential skills to look after yourself in the mountains. Bolt belays are nice and convenient, but the more that there are, the more they will be relied upon and more will go in. This will attract more climbers onto routes which they wouldn't be on if there weren't fixed belays. I don't buy the "for our safety" argument.

Francoise - you normally talk a lot of sense but I'm sorry, the idea of not clipping bolts to increase the adventure is ridiculous! I totally agree with IanP on that point. Secondly - you inadvertantly make that point yourself that they totally destroy the need for the climber to have any sense of route finding, you might as well paint lines up the cliff if you really believe that! The idea that a guidebook spoils the sense of adventure in climbing, I can't accept either. Even climbing in Chamonix, perhaps the best documented alpine area in the world, I thought was great as the guide (the one we had at least) would say something like "follow cracks and corners on the front of the buttress to where it narrow to ridge and joins the voie normale. 250 mtrs." No one could claim that kind of description takes away too much adventure! The idea that new routing and expeditions should allow people to 'explore' is silly. Expeditions take a lot of time or/and money. Some people like Ian have made the decision that climbing is the thing that will come first in his life at least for the time being, and will scrimp and save to be able to get off to the big hills and do things. I totally respect that, although I wouldn't prioritise that way personally. Others might have the financial resources to be able to fly off for a few weeks some where remote for the annual holiday - but many people simply can't afford that option. But there is a "third way" (haha) that people can go to say, Scotland or the less frequented parts of the Alps and have their little adventures there. Lines of glittering bolts, not guidebooks, will destroy that. Having said that I'm not anti-bolts 100%. Certain places are already popular and nothing is going to change that. A few well placed bolts, rather than years of decaying pegs and tat might be visually less intrusive and safer. For example I was quite suprised that on the S. Face of the Aiguille du Midi, the rappels although bolted were joined by years of decaying tat rather than a chain. We looked at the tat and thought "- hmmm - that looks dodgy" so added our own bit hence in a way furthering the problem. The bolts are already there - might as well join them with a chain. Also some of the belays I found climbing above Chamonix have been collections of dubious pegs and tat. Being a brit and hence always carrying more gear than we need, backing them up with some nuts etc. has never been a problem, but watching others come and just clip into the mank is always worrying.