UKC

Oh dear, me the wife are arguing about clip ons.
We have two bikes each, MTBs without Clip Ons, Road Bikes with.
My wife prefers the MTBs because they do not have Clip Ons, I prefer the Road Bike because its lighter and more agile.
I fitted Clip ons on my road bike and after getting used to them, really like them, but found my wife just could not keep up with me, and I was not particularly trying.
I fitted clip ons to her bike, and after getting used to them, she does keep up with me.
But she has fallen off a couple of times, the classic pull up at a junction and just forget and fall sideway s thing.
We are now falling out because I say she will not be able to keep up.
Sorry for the rambling tale, but do clip ons make as big a difference as I think I am experiencing and if she perseveres will she get used to them.

The clip ons are not the hardcore things but Shimano trainer things with clip ons.

I don't know what difference they make as I don't ride with them, but surely it's her bike so her choice? Bikes are very personal and she has to be happy with it. Don't try to force your choices onto her!

They make some difference,  but shouldn't be as noticeable as all that.  Try getting her decent flat pedals and toe clips.

Failing that, probably best reign in your riding if you want to ride with her.

Get a tandem for joint rides.  Fixed.

Firstly, they're 'clip-less' pedals, not 'clip-ons', which sounds rather counter intuitive, but flat pedals were fitted with toe clips (cages and straps) for racing, so when pedals with cleats came along they were 'clip-less'.  'Clip-ons' is the term usually applied to time trial bars that are bolted onto a normal pair of handlebars.

Secondly, they do make a big difference and, thirdly, she will get used to it and it won't take long.  Falling over a few times is sort of compulsory

Ahh its you, its you that has caused the bother with 60km round trips to work, I am joking there
You are totally correct and I am trying to find a solution that works for both of us, its got to be enjoyable for both of us. There must be away, just have to find it, hence the thread. Do you use toe clips?

Firstly and most importantly, as girlymonkey said, it's her choice.  Don't force them on her.

More generally, clipless pedals do take a bit of getting used to - it probably took me a couple of weeks of cycling daily to work to completely stop the slow sideways falls. My own experience is that it was worth perservering - but then again it was my own choice to try them in the first place.

If she decides to go back to flats, get some decent pedals.  Don't just use the ones that came with the bike. Consider clips too (although personally, I find clips more awkward than clipless).

As someone else said, clipless pedals do make some difference, but they shouldn't make as much difference as you seem to be experiencing...

Slow down a bit! I don’t think they’d make a huge amount of difference - the vast majority of power is produced on the downstroke anyway. 

No, I just ride on the crappy flat pedals which came on the bike and normal trainers. By the time I have 3 meals, my uniform, repair kit and waterproofs in my bag, there's no way I would want to carry spare shoes too! 

I have always ridden flats and it has never hindered my enjoyment so I just go with it. I'm not a "proper" roadie! I don't wear padded shorts, nothing slick and trendy! I have wild coloured and patterned running leggings which I wear, an old high viz vest over the rucksack, and a red paramo windstopper which flaps around a bit. I think any "proper" cyclist would disown me from their ranks! (I still end up fairly high up the lists on Strava segments, so can't be affecting me too much! Lol). 

I'm sure there will be some gains to be had with clips and all the fancy kit, but it has to be enjoyable. If she is not happy then it's not the kit for her. Maybe you just need to ride slower and enjoy the views when you ride with her. Maybe you carry the lunch and any other kit?

Just put decent flats on your wife's road bike, surely it's a no brainer.  As for not keeping up simply do laps on the uphill bits if you need to combine training with quality time rides.

I find clipless pedals to make a massive difference when I'm working hard but not for steady riding.  Indeed I've swapped back from clipless to flats on my MTB where  I found them to be less if a benefit

As an alternative for your wife, I use MKS Leather Half Clips.

I tried clip-ons but was never happy with them, especially after falling off a couple of times (old dogs, new tricks etc).

Years ago I used standard toe-clips and straps but some people don't like these as they keep your feet bound in.

So, for me at least, the half-clips are the best and safest compromise. They also look good on my road bike.
The only consideration is that there is enough clearance between the front of the clip and the front wheel.

By the way, my  lad uses Zefal rubber half toe clips, which are a bit heftier and might have slightly more toe room if she wears chunky shoes. These give a bit less clearance than my MKS ones.

What are these "decent" flats people speak of, how can a flat pedal not be decent. Our road bikes are Btwin 320s, so not Gucci, but by all accounts fit for purpose.

Half toe clips are quite good as they don't have any strapping, my sister uses them on her bike and really like them. Easy to get in and out (no falling off sideways) and places your foot in the best position.  

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ZEFAL-Zefal-45-Half-Toe-Clips/dp/B00HSMJZOU

It's because some road bikes sold these days have the cheapest possible plastic pedals fitted with the expectation that the user will upgrade to decent pedals of their choice

I've been converted to clipless on my road bike - but on my MTB have long used 'Power Grips' - on platform pedals. They're diagonal straps across the pedal- you just angle the foot slightly to engage the strap- then straightening your foot provides the tension.  I've found these give pretty good connection with the pedal, are easy/ quick to get out of when needed (the foot movement needed isn't much different from just taking your foot off the pedal normally) and I can choose what footwear to use depending on the weather/ ground conditions. Power Grips were also my commuting option prior to going clipless and worked well on the road too. I think they're about £20 and seem to fit most pedals which have suitable fixing holes, so cheaper than buying half-decent platform pedals or shoes. They seem to last ages too

Most bikes come with something like this: https://www.sportsdirect.com/muddyfox-plastic-mtb-pedals-937860.  As kevin stephens said, these are the cheapest possible pedals and the expectation is that whoever buys the bike will change them out.  Pedals are quite a personal preference (as you are discovering) so there is little point in selling bikes with fancy pedals.

Something like this would probably be better: https://www.wiggle.co.uk/dmr-v12-flat-pedals-1/.  Bigger surface area, better studs, lighter, better bearings.  Use them with shoes with a soft-ish sole (so the studs grip properly).

As an aside, one thing that occurred to me is to look at your wife's pedalling technique. Using clipless pedals more or less forces you to place your feet correctly (ball of foot over shaft of pedal).  If she is not doing this on flat pedals it may account for some of the lost efficiency.

Do the nice thing, and go back to flats on your road bike.

The main issue with clipless or semi/clips versus a platform pedal is not being able to pull upwards aswell as pushing downwards. That does make a noticeable difference to how tired your legs feel on a climb as pulling upwards gives you a rest from pushing downwards! But as some other have said, it's not worth getting into an argument over. Try semi clips to start - you still have to consciously pull your foot out, but on the plus side it's pretty darn easy to do, and with time she will build the muscle memory required to use clipless if she feels ready for it. If she really doesn't want to try that, then get a pair of good quality platform pedals to replace the crappy ones that came with the bike. A larger platform helps push more comfortably and if it has metal pegs poking out of it, they will engage with the shoe well. Soft rubber soled shoes grip well on them (think old approach shoes) and whilst they are not as effective as clipless, they do make a difference as you learn to angle the pedal so you get more power throughout the stroke. 

What do you do with the spare clipless pedals? Well if you love them so much and they are SPD type (i.e. touring/mtb wih a small metal cleat on the shoe) then put the spares on you MTB and feel the benefit there too. I mean you'll make her cry because you're always beating her, but then you could just reign it in a bit... or god forbid, when you go road cycling with her, go on your MTB whilst she's on her road bike... that should redress the balance a bit.

Which pedals/cleats is she using?

If not already, I'd recommend one of the Shimano pedals that come with the SH56 multi-release cleats, which are much easier to get out of, especially if you lower the release tension on the pedals.

The alternative would be something like the Shimano M324 (or more expensive variants, like EH500 or T8000) that have a clip one side and a flat pedal on the other, so you can unclip well in advance of a junction. I've got a pair of the M324 on my hack bike, so I can ride it with normal shoes - they're good, but you have to be careful not to catch the cage side on the floor going round corners.

Going by the description, the EH500 might be perfect and come with SH56 cleats:

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shimano-eh500-pedals/rp-prod188511

Have you tried speedplay as they do unclip and clip in easier than others, plus duel side you don't need to look down on clipping. 

That's interesting - I didn't even know if they were still around. I bought a pair for winter riding when I lived in Finland because you can use them with heavier warmer footwear in cold weather (SPD cleats on the sole of a shoe work quite effectively at cooling your feet in proper cold weather!). http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2010/10/stuff-that-works-power-grips-...

When I wasn't using them at some point I put them on my wife's bike (she was commuting by bike about 40 km round trip) at one point. She really likes them and has kept them on her bike ever since. In fact we went for a ride yesterday - first time for her in ages - and she was using them.

I would have thought for mountain biking because it is one side it would be a bit harder to get your foot in when you get going than a double sided SPD? If I didn't flick the pedal around to get my foot in the strap first time and the strap-loop was on the bottom side of the pedal I was always a bit worried about them snagging on something if off road. I don't think it ever happened but that was one reason I tended to use SPDs always for MTB.

Thanks for all the replies. What we have decided to do is use the MTB with flats for our daily rides to keep up fitness and toughen up our bums. And the my wife will cycle to a nearby car park which is now closed to traffic, and spend 10 minutes a day practising with the clipless, taking feet on and off and trying to remove from left and right as she has a habit of removing always the right. We are thinking that if she can practice in a stress free place she can really get used to them. We will make sure they clip and unclip easily.
If after a couple of weeks this is not working, we will try some of the other suggestions.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Steve

The perils of toe-clips (and macho gearing) from an earlier age

youtube.com/watch?v=DGSQyslHYcw& (from 26:22 onwards)

I did the standard fall over at a junction when I first used clipless. Much later, when falling over was out of the question, I fitted some new cleats, forgot they were much stiffer and harder to get out, fell over and broke my middle finger.

Personally, I nearly always unclip my left, and IMHO that's not a bad habit to have as it avoids the unclip left and put right foot down (been there, done that - didn't end well). If you habitually put a particular foot down, then a call to do something else triggers a bit of a mental alarm rather than just leading to a casual cock-up.  Taking your left out also means that in most cases if you do make a mess of it you're going to fall onto the verge/pavement rather than into the road.

Have you thought about riding slower? 

If the issue is arguments when your wife can't keep up, the solution is to stay together, or go out on your own instead. If staying together is difficult because you are in front, one possible solution is for you to ride behind, although this has some technical disadvantages if you're the one who wants to work hardest, it is way easier to keep together this way.

No idea how much difference clipless actually makes, and personally am a little dubious about this pulling up on the pedals thing, it certainly doesn't feel like that when I'm pedaling. The advantage it does feel like it has though is that it is easier to pedal in circles, rather than pushing, for a more fluid pedaling action. I think the biggest benefit is in encouraging higher cadence, and making it easier to do this whilst maintaining contact and control of the pedals. It may be possible to pedal almost as effectively with flats with good technique and a conscious effort to maintain a high cadence, clipless just makes this easier.

Some people do have greater difficulty getting used to clipless pedals, and some simply don't like them. Personally the action to disengage from a standard SPD (if that is what you're referring to) is pretty natural, the natural action to take your foot off a pedal is to mainly move your foot outwards, which if clipped into a pedal easily translates into the heel moving out pivoting around the cleat, exactly the movement required to disengage from the pedal. Disengaging from a pedal near the top of the movement (about 10 or 11 o clock probably best) feels more intuitive and easier than at the bottom.

The other thing that makes a big difference is how high the tension is set on the release spring. Don't know if they all have adjustment, I'd be surprised if they didn't, certainly every one I have come across has. On an SPD adjustment is usually done by a small screw (generally small Allen head) at front/back of pedal. If this is turned (anticlockwise?, make sure some threads are still engaged) tension on the spring is reduced, and can usually be set for a pretty easy release from the pedal.

youtube.com/watch?v=K0GtQamD3BU& gives you the general idea.

Remember you can adjust the unclipping tension on most pedals. 

Absolutley, this is my main concern.

How many, like me, can remember when the only special equipment one took cycling was a pair of cycle clips to stop the bottom of one's trousers snagging the chain?

I am not going to write a blog on this, but I do put a lot of effort into making this pleasurable for both of us, if its something she does not want to do, its game over. However I also believe that she is more than capable of keeping up with me, and that she can go faster. We are not talking the tour de france here but 30 mile rides around the Fylde plains.
Obviously what I am going to say will now get many dislikes and flameings, but I believe that women are the equal of men and that far too many men do the "nice" thing or slow down for the women, and consequently the woman never improves. I see quite a few couples on bikes the bloke on a normal bike and the woman on an E Bike and I think WTF. 

The Crank Brothers range might be worth a look as well - I found them quite a good option for learning how to clip in, plus they fit MTB soles so you can chose shoes which are a bit more practical for walking around in, if that's also a concern.
They don't seem to be especially durable, though - I think I got through three or four pairs in about four years. Swapping to the Look S-series was much better in that regard, but I'm not sure they still do those

I slow down or wait at photo points when I ride with my husband. I still enjoy the ride, no problems 😊

As someone who enjoys a bit of both road and MTB, but don't really think of myself as a serious cyclist, I went through this a few years ago after being encouraged to do so. It does make quite a difference especially on longer rides, and definitely worth persisting with. One of my main concerns was also the classic fall over at traffic light move, but I have never actually done this in several years (touch wood). I use SPDs, which I believe may be infra dig for keen road cyclists, but fine for recreational cycling IMHO. Two points; with SPDs you can set the tension so slack that your feet will occasionally unclip accidentally, so not much chance of getting stuck in. Second, and this may have been mentioned above, you can get SPD pedals which are normal metal flats, but incorporate the clip on one side only. So you can get used to them gradually this way, but use them without being clipped in, when/if you prefer. 

You could buy him an E Bike.

Two things here:

Firstly, this isn't a gender thing - if she was on here asking for advice because you weren't keeping up, I suspect most of the advice would be similar. This is about two people of differing ability who want to enjoy an activiity together. The obvious way to achieve that is for the more able person to slow down/drop the grade/whatever to a point where the less able person can enjoy it. That would be true if you were riding with a slower male friend too. I honestly don't know why her gender needed to be brought into this.

Secondly, yes, of course she needs to push a little bit to get faster. However, firstly you should establish if she actually wants to get faster - she might just be happy pootling, in which case pushing will just put her off. If she does want to push, let her do it on her own terms. Motivation is always better with ownership. Let her set herself some goals or set a pace that is challenging for her even if it is slower than you would prefer. 

There’s a difference between slowing down and slowing down. 
 

When I run with a slower runner, I gauge their capabilty by whether they can talk. If they’re not talking, I slow down until they can. It’s a very simple test of whether someone is working too hard, or not hard enough. 

Yes she does want to go faster, because she wants to go farther, and if she does not go faster we will not have time in the day to do the longer rides, and the Café will be shut when we get there. 
Café, do you remember those, like a shop with chairs that sold lovely cakes and pots of tea, I miss cafes.

Plus it’s pretty demoralising constantly chasing somebody faster than you - doesn’t make it very enjoyable. 

Ok, great - but don't expect her to match your speed all at once. Slowing down so that she can work at a pace where she is working enough to push it but not too much doesn't mean she will "never improve".

Ah, the Rhubarb and Lime at Kippen...

Doing the 'nice' thing has zero to do with gender, its about being nice(r) to your riding friends/partner.

Having said that, I wish I hadn't tried this line out on Annemiek when we went for a spin.

Have you/anyone tried the planet x ones

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/PEJOBSMTB/jobsworth-single-side-clipless-spd-...

My wife currently has the mtb style double sided platform/spds. But they are very heavy. (similar to the 424s)

I have a pair of these, or something very similar. They are heavier than normal double sided SPD pedals, but I think the difference between flats and these is a lot more than the difference between these/normal SPD pedals. 

Drop the pressure in your tires when you ride with her and make sure hers at at optimum pressure you get to work hard and she gets to keep up

I ride quite often with my wife, she is a reasonably accomplished rider, particularly for longer stuff, London to Paris solo, Coast to Coast in a day; however she really struggles to hold my wheel and if I'm not looking back all the time I find that I leave her behind.

As a consequence I tend to let her lead and just fall in behind her, strangely she has no problem setting a pace comparable to the one she struggled to follow. I think it is because for a long time she only ever rode solo and what racing she did was triathlon, with no drafting rules. A mental block rather than a physical one.

If I fancy a blast, I usually wait for a decent hill and wait at the top.

I would not recommend fitting clipless pedals to someone's bike unless they have learned to start+stop without having to sit on the saddle and have learned to trackstand.  Without these 2 basic skills clipless pedals will be a disaster.

I can't trackstand, and although I can start/stop correctly without sitting on the saddle, I usually don't as I generally carry a courier bag quite low on my back and it gets hung up on the saddle. I have used clipless pedals for 8 years with no major disasters...

You need to able to track stand to use clip less pedals. Well you learn something everyday. I better take mine off then.

Thanks for the reply.. 

I've got the shimano equivalent ones on my commute bike, and have done for the past 15 years. I was particularly interested in the planet x ones as they are half the price of the Shimano ones.

I'll do some more digging. 

Me too; 7,500 miles last year and my track stand is laughable.  Must be because I can just about dab a toe down with my backside in the saddle

Ditto. Trackstanding just looks (and is) so completely unecessary* that I've never had the slightest urge to try it and I use clip ins regularly.

Mind you, I use SPDs on my road bike so what do I know

*Unless one is on a Penny Farthing, perhaps... vimeo.com/28197887

As you gradually come to halt, stand up twist your foot the side and out of the pedal and step down.

Another important thing is to lean slightly to the side you’re unclipping. 

Just to throw the cat among the pigeons. I grew up (OK got older) racing BMX on flats, moved on to MTB on flats, slowly converted to clipless, but now back on flats. I can get the same speed out of either. 

Some interesting reading on the subject. 

https://www.rivbike.com/pages/the-shoes-ruse

The only thing clipless pedals do well is head injuries. 

Didn't work when 'bags' were briefly in fashion in the 70s.  I still remember ending up in a heap across some busy traffic lights, on my way back from school, with my 'trendy' bags (now in tatters) tangled round the bike's chain.

Really ? news to me.  If in doubt, just unclip well before you need to stop.

There is a lot of hokum spoken about clipless pedals I agree but as this guy (similarly not keen on them) says, 'They are a piece of performance equipment that artificially strengthens the weak links in the foot – namely keeping you foot planted and the ability to pedal with less focus on pedaling under fatigue and stress'. https://www.bikejames.com/strength/clipless-pedals-are-not-the-problem-the-...

That much I think is true and I do think that it's easier to pedal when tired, with less effort, when clipped in. 

And that is the dumbest post ever !

100,000 Strava miles, 1000km Audaxes. Age group Champion TTer and I can't track stand.

No, I’m fairly accomplished as a cyclist and can’t track stand, and manage not to fall off using clip less pedals. 

thanks for that. the '85 Koppenberg climb (starting 16 min) with 42x23 gearing is hilarious. did they mention if they used same gearing in '95? funny how the elephant in the room is mentioned but not explained further?

You seen this in the same vein?  youtube.com/watch?v=U631JUhEczs&

More elephants, more silence, but great footage of 2001 Paris-Roubaix. Poor Big George didn't stand a chance!

Steve, you have to realise that many cyclists are not only fashion victims who have to ride around in all-black clothing for appearance's sake, but there's a lot of guff talked about what constitutes good enough (i.e. how much did it cost?) where bike equipment goes. I know you've got more sense than to spend more than necessary just to keep your end up. Wellgo pedals are absolutely fine and cost about 20 quid a pair. But to keep your foot in the right position on the pedal (important!) you will need either old fashioned toe clips with straps or something like these https://www.tredz.co.uk/bike-pedal-spares?q=delta+toe+clips+pedal+parts

Debbie and I have used cleats but she has recently changed to the above. She had a bad fall with cleats a while back and landed on her hip. Nothing broken, luckily, but very badly bruised and took several months to heal. She worries also that, with cleats, when she gets off to walk a steep hill she will fall over before being able to free her foot. I think she is going to stick with the new half clips.

I agree with the half clips. However if you've got a nice road bike, the MKS leather half clips are much nicer.

I've used these for years, whereas my lad with a hybrid uses the Zefal ones.

Good point. But I have to admit I gave up worrying about what my bike looked like when I was about 18.

Maybe you've got a ninja training school near you and that's the reason for the above? I can't say I remember the last time I saw someone in all black on a bike unless it's the lads cruising about on the pavements on suspiciously unnecessary full sus mountain bikes in black TNF hoodies, black adidas tracky bottoms, black Nike airmax and nicely accessorized with a black manbag and black baseball cap? The spliff isn't black so perhaps that's their concession to visibility.

Years ago (mid 90s I guess) I had those half clips for a bit. I found if you had ridden with full toe clips before, as I had, they were deeply annoying because you can't really pull up on them. They look like you have toe clip but don't work like that. I would imagine now having used SPDs for such a long time, it would feel similar? The power straps mentioned somewhere above are definitely worth a look as a halfway house. Also just setting the release load really low on SPDs is worth a try for people who are nervous about them.

I have to admit that clips, half or whole, without a strap don't do much apart from keep your foot in the right place. But that is important.

My wife cannot keep up with me either so I go at the pace that I need for exercise and every few minutes loop back so she can catch up. We have a bit of a chat and then repeat. Everyone's happy!