UKC

On Smollets thread drafting is mentioned, and straight off a man drafting a women he does not know is just pervy and the bloke needs a good slapping, and as a man I am not sure I would be comfortable with an uninvited female drafting me, but leaving all that aside,

• is it good manners anyway to draft a stranger uninvited?
• does a person drafting you in some way hold you back?

My objection to uninvited drafters is simply that riding two-up is a teamwork activity and we're not a team. For it to be done safely there are obligations and restrictions on each rider that I haven't signed up for. I want to have the option to slow down, swerve to avoid potholes turn left on a whim, fart, without feeling any obligation to the guest. Conversely I don't know if the person behind it going to clip my wheel or overlap on the inside, etc, etc.

If I'm out for a ride on my own it's because I wanted to go for a ride on my own.

Bad manners to draft someone without talking to them IMHO

Although I've done it myself, unless you're in a race situation, it's always bad manners to draft without asking. 

I believe science says being drafted makes you faster as it cleans up the air behind you. If this applies to the normal person who might slow down because they aren't happy with it is a different matter

Perviness, or not, aside:

No - and it can be downright dangerous, as you don't know where the lead rider is going, especially if you haven't announced your presence. Would you do it in your car - no, for good reason. I've had some idiot crash into the back of me when I slowed down and he didn't - I stayed upright, he ended up on the floor and nearly got run over by a car.

No - it tends to give them a tow, though.

Well, this is my reply on that thread, 

Personally I take offence to anyone taking my wheel uninvited whether I have passed them or they have latched on from behind, firstly it's not good etiquette, secondly it's a danger to me and them, I don't want some goon on my wheel that I don't even know can hold a wheel without overlapping or riding into the back of me, but that's just my take on it...

I don't mind people drafting me, as long as they don't mind getting covered in spit and snot, led through potholes and, if I'm feeling grumpy, brakechecked.

You've summed it up very well for me. To be honest, there is a bit of an ego thing in there which makes me want to ride some random off my wheel but really it's just that I'm out for a ride on my own and don't want to have the responsibility that comes with someone being on my wheel. If I go for a ride with mates then I know and trust them, and can account for how much I trust their skill in how I ride with them.

Lots of people don't like being drafted but like drafting. I like drafting and I don't mind being drafted. Personally I think it's sharing efficiency and the person in front has the options of sticking with it or if they don't like being drafted simply taking the pressure off or putting their foot down and pulling away if you can.

The onus is on the person in front to control the pack, they are the only person with control and the only person that knows how they think about it.

It's the street, not a tri or tt and it's not racing and there aren't rules.  Left to the physics bunching and drafting will occur because the draftee can maintain a higher speed drafting than they can without and overtaking is difficult (much in the same way as the number 2 bus comes in squadrons).

If you think about it as "racing" you're into a world of disappointment unless you've got a lot of welly in hand (in which case why were you idling?) if you give up the idea of, "my road, my draft, my race", it's not such a big deal. Just take the pressure off and wave them past.

If you're being drafted, relax, go at the speed you would maintain naturally and don't worry about it. Give yourself a pat on the back you're helping out a stranger - the person behind will get to work earlier a and little less sweaty, a gentle gift to the community.

Thanks for the replies, seems I am on the right track, having said that, drafting me would be like drafting a traction engine, a huge hole through the air, but incredibly slow, and a lot of pollution as I fart a lot.

Its not a pack though is it? Its having someone decide to ride rather close behind you. Thats fine if it is someone I know and trust to be able to respond to what I do. Although most of those people wouldnt really trust me enough to draft me.

I think the consensus is that it is bad etiquette and telling the person to relax about it just compounds the thoughtlessness, but as said I doubt its something I will need to worry about so I am relaxed

Until the wheel sucker who is late for their Saturday morning shift decides that you will be chancing it through that amber light and goes ploughing into the back of you, trashing your bike and leaving everyone from your club wondering why you have not turned up to the club run. 

I don't have a problem with someone sitting on my wheel.  I like to know what's behind me so it rarely comes as a surprise.  I always try and ride predictably anyway so it's no big deal.  If someone sneaks up on me, I'll tow them along for a while and then flap an elbow and let them through.  If they're strong enough to catch me, they're strong enough to take a turn. If they then fade I'll try and drop them.  If I can't, there'll be words.

If I pass someone and they jump on my wheel, no problem, but after a while I'll probably decide it's their turn and then above.

I'll generally ask if I jump on.   The main exception is grinding up a hill when you're not drafting, you're just going at the same pace in the same place.  I'll then take my turn at the front, usually with a comment such as 'My turn to have a target on my back'.  

I dislike people who pass you and then fade, and then jump on your wheel.  That's just rude.  Even worse are those people you're passing on a hill who then pile on the pressure and then fade and repeat.  They need some manners put on them, which always hurts.

Brake-checking a cyclist is just brainless

Indubitably. But then so is putting yourself in a position to have it happen.

Oh, I don't know, maybe because maybe they want to idle ? They might have been racing yesterday and want a nice recovery ride or any other number of reasons without some moron latching onto their wheel uninvited.

Couple of summers ago, I was enjoying a really nice ride on my own in the sun, when I noticed that someone had crept up and was sat on my wheel.

He got really arsey when I asked him nicely to bugger off!

If I grab someone’s wheel, vanishingly rare, I make it known and say hello, take my turn but it is vanishingly rare it ever happens.  If someone jumps on my wheel I usually drop them at the first hill but otherwise I just treat them like a mate and ride accordingly, point out hazards and shout warnings.

Cheers

Toby

Are you sure, that sounds like something for nothing, and having only got as far as CSE at Physics my knowledge of these matters is slim, however I would have thought Mr Einstein or Newton would have Law that would disagree with you there, or possibly UKCs 3rd Law of Helicopters on Conveyor belts takes precedence. 

Right off for a walk, enough bollocks for the moment.

I wouldn’t draft a stranger but don’t really care on the rare occasion someone does it to me. If they can keep up, good luck to ‘em. It gives you an advantage if anything. 

Sorry, is there a pandemic going on?

Ha, yes! Someone did it to me last summer and then finally came past me so close we almost brushed! No other traffic around at the time. Dick!

It's definitely a question worthy of a thread of its own.

Being drafted costs you nothing (I await some aerodynamics expert to pop up and show that this isn't true and then someone else to pop up with a paper showing that done right drafting actually helps the leader).

After 40 years of bike riding, drafting and being drafted I've only once been involved in an accident drafting and that was when someone behind me miscalculated when I slowed to pass a clot of very fat pedestrians.  The rider behind clipped a wall trying to avoid me and fell off (luckily unhurt except for pride).  They were small, I'm quite big, they were over enthusiastic and they couldn't see past me properly to fully appreciate the bulk of the obstruction.

This totally pales into insignificance with the problems I've had with cars, pedestrians, dogs, the occasional cat, other bikes (especially with headphones in and hoods up), potholes and many other inanimate obstacles when off road.

I suspect there is a spill over from MGIF drivers getting on bikes and getting upset when people keep up with them but you need to let it go, be nice to people and don't worry if some of your waste energy gets recycled. You've always got options, go slower, go faster, wave people past. Don't stress, you don't own the space and you don't own that nice little low pressure pocket behind you. You may have made it but it's gone, and it isn't coming back to you.

I think there is a tendency for some people to see this all as a competition. Ultimately it's not the kit that matters, it's the engine.  Racing a sit-up-and-beg 3 speed with soft fat tyres in jeans and donkey jacket against a 10k carbon frame, 20mm 100psi tyres, full lycra and aero-helmet isn't fair so unless you're going to get your WattBikes out and do your willy waving with a power meter why do you actually care?

You're all welcome to draft me (assuming you can catch me) but watch out because I make sharp turns as I tend to follow the line of most fun rather than the line of most efficiency.

I love after announcing it isnt a competition you casually humble brag how awesome you are. That you then go on to say why its risky to follow someone who you dont know is good as well.

I am amazed that some people struggle with the idea that someone might not be overly chuffed by some random person deciding to ride right behind them and think it is for them to deal with it instead of, ohh, asking if it is okay.

That you then try and blame people and accuse them of thinking it is a competition/being bothered by someone keeping up is quite special. I couldnt give a toss about someone overtaking me (although admittedly the person who was doing hill repeats a few weeks back and so managed to overtake me twice did come close....) but what I am not a fan of is someone else riding in a way that forces me to respond for no good reason.

When driving do you tailgate in order to boost your fuel efficency?

I don't have a problem with people drafting me, if anything it makes me work harder as I will up the pace and see if they can stay with me, if they can good on them as far as I'm concerned, I do think people should at least say hello, I always speak to other cyclists and find most people do the same, If I get caught and passed I will try and up my pace if I can and get a bit of a tow, the thing I find annoying is if someone takes offence at being passed and then proceeds to leapfrog past only to be caught and passed again.

Roadies have a duty to drag me along on my 45/40mm.

I don't have a huge issue with it personally although I am aware it's not really the done thing, as evidenced from the replies here. I think it depends how close you get and how long you're doing it for. If I'm gradually closing the gap on someone ahead I might draft at 4-5m back, which still gives a decent saving, for a minute or two to get a bit of a rest and wait for an opportunity to pass cleanly.

I wish someone would explain that to the French!  Perhaps they think they're still on a bike when they're driving?

Let me revise that a bit, just so that we're clear.  Brake-checking a cyclist is malicious. 

"casually humble brag how awesome you are", I'll think you'll find that's piss take, however, I am pretty awesome!

My point about risk is that, compared with the risks we routinely take out on a bike, this one is trivial.

As for being forced to respond - you don't have to, just keep plugging away, the draftee isn't doing you any harm.

As for tail gating, no I don't tailgate and no I don't like it.  I think this comes with an appreciable risk to everyone concerns and conveys no benefit. Don't confuse this with drafting.

Well yes, I'm agreeing with you.

Leaving aside that you are projecting your own experience onto everyone and declaring it as fact. Every single other scenario you mention would be made worse by drafting with the example you give being a combination.

In your opinion maybe but as is clear from this thread plenty of people arent overly keen on having someone sitting right behind them that they dont know. So to put it bluntly yes it does do me harm since instead of just enjoying the ride I have to consider the ignorant idiot behind me.

You will need to help me out here and give some reasoning rather than expecting me to take your opinion as fact. I am a driving god so its perfectly safe for me to sit a few cm behind you in order to boost my fuel efficiency. What harm am I doing you?

Really doesn’t bother me either way. If someone overtakes me and drops onto my front wheel at my pace then they’re  fair game as far as I’m concerned. If I catch someone up and we’re at a similar pace give or take then I’ll usually have a chat. If someone sucks my rear wheel then that’s also fine with me. 

Yes, but its UKC law that it is impossible to catch Covid outside unless you take a direct hit from a Snot Rocket.

The situation I hate (and it's no one's fault) is when you're out in the rolling Peak District and come across someone who free-wheels the downhills (so I go past) and then hammers the uphills (so I get passed). After a few repeats it's sort of embarrassing: Am I supposed to hammer the uphills too? That's not going to work. Do I have to stay back on the downhills? Boring! Go somewhere else? It's not drafting, but can still come over a bit weird.

That's the way I see it. If it's a long pairing I just alternate like Emperor penguins but on my regular commute I'm usually not going the same way as anyone else for more than a few hundred metres which is barely enough time to say hallo.

Draft a stranger ? chance would be a fine thing !

Snap. Otherwise it’s an ecumenical matter !

To my mind, if someone wants to draft behind me that's their business, but they shouldn't expect me to be pointing out hazards for them. I know that's the done thing in a group, but in that case everyone's consenting - it seems a bit much to be expecting that of someone you've just happened across 

Drafting law for me:

1. Thou shalt not draft a stranger on a ride of recreational or training purpose.

2. On a commute of utilitarian purpose, thou is permitted to draft anyone who dareth overtaketh thou.

3. If thoust sneaketh into the draft of thou, expecteth to be ignored and to enter the cave of pain for thoust ith weak and shalleth be dropped.

(3 occasionally goes wrong if I've misjudged the likely FTP of the drafter using my subliminal perception).

No of course we don't *have * to respond, but many of us on here are saying we don't like it because we feel an obligation to the person behind, which means they are putting that obligation onto us by being there, without having had the courtesy to ask.

One of the pleasures of being out on my own on my bike is that I can go into my own little world and let my mind wander. Someone uninvited right behind me completely breaks that.

Equally, I might overtake you because I'm doing intervals, which means I'm no more than a few minutes from sitting up and slowing down unexpectedly, so you might well go up the back of me.

At least ride alongside me and have a bit of a chat, say hello, whatever, then maybe ask if I mind having some stranger ride right behind me - normally I'll be fine with it because you've had the decency to make yourself known (as long as you do your turns 😉 )

If I'm out with my club or a couple of mates then yeah, we'll draft each other like heck, but that is what I've decided to get out of my cycling that day.

I don't get what's so hard to understand with this - if you are drafting someone without asking then you are imposing on their space. Some may be fine with it, but many aren't, and you have to respect that, not just explain it away as "I'm doing you no harm".

Equally, I don't get the people who simply can't bear being overtaken, without trying to jump on the wheel of the person whose overtaken them. Smacks of a fragile ego to me.

If you don't have the fitness to drop the drafter, then you shouldn't complain about being drafted.

You wouldn't bolt gaia...

But it sounds like you do get them, although I think it's more than that.

Just like when you go on a stroll up some Lakeland peak on a sunny summer's day and overhear your fellow ramblers discussing a blizzard on K2 or Everest, a lot of roadies think they're in a breakaway up the Col de la Madeleine when climbing in the Surrey Hills or making a solo escape on a cobbled sector of Gent–Wevelgem when passing through a stretch of road on the outskirts of Braintree that's about to be resurfaced.

It's the Homeric spirit and should be applauded, don't you think?

I think what is needed here is a handkerchief code for drafting...

I'm with this. Horses for courses. If you're commuting in London you need your wits about you at all times, so there's nothing lost by getting involved in "do they know we're racing?"

If you're out on a leisure ride in the countryside, you shouldn't have to consider whether a stranger is going to run into your back.

It's an interesting discussion with regards to female riders though. 

Back in my London commuting days, I'd have jumped on the wheel (or attempted to at any rate) of any stronger rider along embankment. I wouldn't have considered the apparent gender of the rider, and how it might make them feel to have a beardy old git in lycra chasing them down the road.

It's clear from the conversations we've been having recently, that some women would find that concerning, as the motivation of the person behind would be unknown. I'm guessing probably not along embankment at 8:30 am with an impromptu peleton forming and everyone at it, but on a stretch with less cycle traffic further out that could be disconcerting.

I'll certainly think more about how my behaviour could be construed as potentially threatening in future. Which is kindof a shame, because in theory I don't like the idea of treating men and women differently. But I like the idea of making someone feel uncomfortable less.

On a related note, I once saw some chap drafting a double-decker bus along the Kingston bypass in south London at about 40mph; he was mostly not peddling except that when he fell back slightly he would have to go like a maniac to get back in the sweet spot.

To this day I don't know which button was pressed harder - my insanity button or my respect button.

No, not really. But maybe you're right that I do get it - it just isn't right that they impose their wishes on someone else who hasn't had a say in it with the only justification I can see being "I'm not doing you any harm". If I come and stand 2 inches in front of someone's face in queue (pre Covid!) then I'm not doing you any harm but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't like it. . 

Again, I really don't understand why it's so hard to ride alongside and ask if it's okay to draft, and it seems rude not to really.

Aye - in London commuting there are no genders, just chaotic elements to be utilised or avoided as appropriate.

I used to do this quite a bit. Don't try this at home obviously, but if you stay a bit off centre (to the right) and keep your concentration high you can usually get out of trouble if the bus stops suddenly.

I did come very close to a serious incident one day behind a dirt lorry (possibly the worst vehicle to do this behind, with an overhanging very, very solid back at head height, so you'll take the full force to the face not the body) at around 35 mph who had to do an emergency stop. I locked both wheels and to this day I have no idea how I managed to control the skid round the lorry and down the gap between the lanes. 

Looking back, it's funny how you become immune to fear on the roads in London after a while. I wouldn't ride like that now, but with the very real possibility that someone was going to run me over anyway regardless of how I rode, my perception of the risks I was taking myself got pretty skewed.

That reminds me of this drafting gem:

youtube.com/watch?v=LuLRm-RXLWw&

Ah, we're talking at cross purposes. I misread what you wrote and didn't see the 'jumping on the wheel bit', sorry. I thought you just meant overtaken then re-overtaken.

So I'm simply applauding (possibly partly because I'm guilty of doing it and often wonder why) the person who gets overtaken and then re-overtakes. In the first instance you didn't know you were in a race as you had no idea someone was creeping/tearing up on you, so you want to see what the outcome would be if you had been. Of course, sometimes you simply cannot re-overtake as the other is too strong.

So nothing at all about drafting, which, in the current situation is inexcusable, and in normal times should always be, as you say, a matter of a polite request etc.

I never get 'drafted' as I'm too slow and an (older) lady - but if somebody was to appear on my wheel uninvited I would simply pull over at the first safe opportunity and wish them "happy day" as they go by

Yeah, I can't say I have a problem with little duels like that out on the road. If I overtake someone and they then want to come back past me then I either have the choice to not bother and carry on as I am, or I can have a bit of fun and get into an impromptu "race" of sorts, and that'd likely lead to us each drafting each other. That's a much better way for it come about though because it's clear that both riders are up for that kind of riding.

All this said, knowing that there are riders out there who will jump on my wheel uninvited does make me up my power a little as I go past someone, just to make it that little bit harder for them to jump on. So thanks for the little extra training motivation 😉

What I find annoying is letting someone past then finding out they are about to puke their guts up cos of the effort they've expended to pass me. I sit on their wheel to try and get them to expend their last matches then whizz past Otherwise I say hello and take turns. Once when I was on a solo century ride I tagged onto 3 GB triathletes doing intervals I had a very fast tow for 5 miles before I thought I'd better conserve my energy for the next 50 miles Its all a bit of fun and its soon obvious whether someone is up for it, or annoyed at you invading their space. Most of my riding is done on quiet East Anglian roads and most people say hello etc.., but suspect it might be different in busy areas.