UKC

Froome's kidneys behave like black holes

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 Mike Highbury 16 Jan 2018

This is important stuff, I don't doubt:

https://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Article/La-defense-risquee-de-chr...

L'Equipe is behind a paywall but Inrng reports that CF's kidneys seem to belch salbutamol, 'L'Equipe reporting that Chris Froome's defence exploring whether his kidneys could have "malfunctioned", storing up salbutamol only to release a large quantity for the anti-doping test.' https://twitter.com/inrng

 JLS 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

Can't access either link. Are they reporting that SKY have science to back this up? Sounds like a crock of sh!t. Unless there is compelling science CF is FCUKed.

Given this was a one off (and way off) I can't see how Sky can hope to repeat it in the lab.

OP Mike Highbury 16 Jan 2018
In reply to JLS:

Inrng is even-handed to a fault and even he feels that CF is running out of excuses, 'Anyway if article's right he'd have to prove it, not just assert it, otherwise as we know a long ban awaits'.

Not the funniest thing but a young medic has found one peer reviewed article, 'Yes, that can happen. "Kidney fails, but functions sufficiently to maintain normal water/electrolyte balance throughout a GT, and selectively retains salbutamol." ref: Munro, J. Fantasy Nephrology and Clinical Chemistry for Beginners (2018) p24.'

 Yanis Nayu 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

It does have the eaten twin, had sex eight times before the test kind of ring to it. 

 the sheep 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

I was really hoping he would be clean but this looks as dodgy as a nine bob note!

 JLS 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Probably eaten a Twix and had eight puffs before the test will be closer to the truth.

 Greasy Prusiks 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Not to mention the Peruvian cough sweets. 

OP Mike Highbury 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Greasy Prusiks: Thanks. Here's to hope that Michelle (F) is leading the team of scientists because she's long proved herself to be the only one with the imagination to pick her way through the weeds.

 

cb294 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

I nearly fell for that, but stopped just short of pasting it into pubmed!

Nice!

CB

 GrahamD 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

I'd love to hear even one plausible story - cheating (what a daft way to do it with nearly a 100% chance of being caught and minimal potential gains) or not cheating (so how can it happen from the allowed dosage ?) or accident (that's a hell of a lot of inhaler puffs to take without realising it).

 elsewhere 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

If he can point to a history of high and wildly fluctuating salbutamol levels he might be able to demonstrate that even legal doses make him unusually likely to innocently break the limit.

It's all pish though unless he can demonstrate his physiology is a weird outlier.

 Chris the Tall 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> It does have the eaten twin, had sex eight times before the test kind of ring to it. 

"The strychnine came from a pigeon pie my father-in-law cooked"

However lets just be careful here, it's a leak and we don't know whether it is to be used as a defense, or indeed whether it has any scientific validity. What does seem certain is that using an inhaler doesn't produce consistent levels of the drug in the urine - so many variables. For example if using it whilst riding a bike uphill, are you going to need to take more puffs to deliver the same amount to your lungs, might you end up swallowing more and what effect does that have ?

Problem for sky is that they now have to prove that his high readings could only have come from inhaler use, and not from consistently micro-dosing via other means

There is also a suspicion that by dragging this out through the season - and with CF free to race - organisers will put UCI under pressure to acquit.  

 

 ClimberEd 16 Jan 2018
In reply to elsewhere:

 

> It's all pish though unless he can demonstrate his physiology is a weird outlier.

Ignoring everything else, he's won the TDF 5 times, clean or not, his physiology is the weirdest of the weird outlier. The 1% of the 1 % of the 1% of the 1% blah blah. Otherwise he wouldn't be winning (or close)

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 Greasy Prusiks 16 Jan 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

Sorry to be pedantic but he's actually currently won it four times.

 ClimberEd 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

ha yes, sorry, my mistake. 

I'm really just trying to point out that if physiological outliers exist in the population they are the top cyclists and other 'gold medal' wining people from physiology based sports. 

 elsewhere 16 Jan 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

> I'm really just trying to point out that if physiological outliers exist in the population they are the top cyclists and other 'gold medal' wining people from physiology based sports. 

True but specifically his salbutamol vs kidney physiology might be very normal. Or very weird.

 

 malk 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

he's doing well on strava - tdf distance/pace - wonder if he's using a motor man? when is the test?

Deadeye 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

If he's truly trying this as an excuse, it's utterly, utterly absurd.  In fact, it's so ridiculous that this must be a hoax.  Team Sky wouldn't risk the embarassment of trying to make the argument.

Kidneys work passively - all molecules below a certain size pass out and some are actively reabsorbed.

There is no reabsorption pathway for salbutamol.

The passive excretion size limit will vary slightly person to person, but is around the size of albumin (mol weight 70,000).

Salbutamol (C13H21NO3) has molecular weight 239g/mol.  He'd be dead if his kidneys didn't excrete salbutamol.

 

 Yanis Nayu 16 Jan 2018
In reply to malk:

He’s flying. I follow a few pros on Strava and his numbers make them look quite ordinary. 

 Yanis Nayu 16 Jan 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

His problem though is that he’s used an inhaler in a large number of grand tours and other stage races and there will be a wealth of data on how his body processes it. 

 ClimberEd 16 Jan 2018
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I'm sure, I'm sure. 

 

I am taking a zero stance on this one. Listening to the naysayers and Froome lovers fight it out is amusing. Personally I don't give a shit. Is he doping, maybe. Are others, equally maybe. Do I like the Fenchies getting pissed off with him winning, definitely. 

2
 Brass Nipples 17 Jan 2018
In reply to Mike Highbury:

Sky trawl the sick wards of hospitals in search of their next grand tour winner.

Nope lungs are healthy , next

Nope liver function normal, next

Nope kidneys working, next

nope heart rhythm normal, next

nope thyroid function normal, next

.... 

 

Clauso 17 Jan 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

> I'm sure, I'm sure. 

> I am taking a zero stance on this one...

Zero (toler)stance?

 ClimberEd 17 Jan 2018
In reply to Henry Iddon:

Totally fallen out of love with Ross Tucker. 

He clearly has an axe to grind beyond impartial sports science analysis of events (usually but not always in cycling.) 

 Chris the Tall 17 Jan 2018
In reply to Clauso:

> Floyd's thoughts:

I think Landis could give some interesting insights into what it's like to be in the position of being stripped of a big win

The desperate search for an excuse (too much whisky !), the protestation of innocence ( remember the Floyd Fairness Fund and the $1m it raised), the betrayal of your friends (one of whom committed suicide) and eventually admitting you were indeed doping. I'm pretty sure his tales of the dark days - when he turned to computer hacking or revealed Lemond's confidental childhood secrets - would be salutatory tales for other people caught up in a web of lies.

Unfortunately, almost 12 years on, he still can't be honest. He admits doping, using EPO, HGH as well as testosterone, but not on the TDF he won. Oh no, that was all down to the corruption of the UCI, who gave the win to another guy who doped just as much as he did.

So whilst this might just be the tip of the iceberg for Sky, and that this case will be start of their downfall, it's far more likely that it won't. So many differences between now and then and that his opinion is of little value.  

 

 

 

 

1
In reply to Chris the Tall:

 

> So whilst this might just be the tip of the iceberg for Sky, and that this case will be start of their downfall, it's far more likely that it won't. 

I don't know. It seems to me that if Sky (sponsor) stopped supporting the team it could all be over pretty quick and they might have been teetering on the brink (Wiggins stuff) before this latest trouble.

 Henry Iddon 17 Jan 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

I think he amalgamates facts very well, and draws reasonable conclusions.

 ClimberEd 17 Jan 2018
In reply to Henry Iddon:

He starts from the basis of 'that can't be possible' and then explains why.

Rather than 'that can be possible' and trying to explain why (and perhaps failing indicating it may not be possible.)

It's an important distinction and I don't like his choice of approach.

 Chris the Tall 17 Jan 2018
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

I think it will take a lot more serious revelations before Sky withdraw. Given the ethics of the murdoch empire, being associated with someone who losses count of the number of puffs of an asthma inhaler is hardly bad for your reputation.


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