UKC

What do people do to fuel for long rides that have a lot of elevation gain? I did an 180km ride with 3350m of ascent last Saturday, and most of the elevation gain was in the first half of the ride. I was eating some highly calorific Chia Charge flapjacks from quite early on but they appeared not to be giving energy fast enough, so around 40 miles in I was utterly screwed. I fully recovered as soon as we got to a town and got on the sugar and caffeine.

I have done other rides where I fuelled on basically Snickers and isotonic drinks all day, this time I did not want to be on fast sugar from the word go but this seemed to have backfired.

How do other people manage this sort of thing, and are there any tips for knowing when to eat and what to eat when the terrain is highly variable?

In reply to Alkis:

I've done a couple of 190 mile rides with about 4000m of climbing.  My approach has been steady pace, gels/bars every hour or so and 2-3 cafe stops to eat pasties/cake/sandwiches.  This works fine, obviously not thinking about getting a record time round the loop, but can genuinely say I enjoyed the rides and arrived home pleased to get out the saddle, but not completely destroyed.

In reply to Alkis:

Did you bonk or did you just fry your legs?

180km when probably the first 100km has 2000+m of climbing is always going to be pretty tough.

If it’s really steep terrain (7%+) I find too easy to mash a big gear and fry your legs rather than spin, especially if you’re feeling strong at the start of a ride.

Personally I go for a mix of cereal bars, gels, maltodexin in the water bottles and caffeine tablets tucked away for emergencies. Having said that, I’m no fuelling wizard and I usually end up pedalling squares on my way home (but that’s what justifies the recovery beers in my mind).

Edit: changing the gradient to be more honest about what I think is really steep.

In reply to Sam W:

After the stop where I recovered, energy levels were far highter and I got home feeling fine, so it would seem like the overall amount of calories in was fine, on my previous 100 miler I had massively underfuelled and was left destroyed for much of the week.

What bars and what gels do you use? I went all bar, because of the higher calorie content, all the gels I've seen seem to not have very many calories. Do you go for a mix of both on the same "meal"?

In reply to Alkis:

It depends on how hard I'm going to be riding and how well topped up my glycogen stores are. HR Zone 2 and below I can eat whatever I want. Z3 and above my digestion slows down and I get a really heavy stomach if I eat anything a high fat or protein content like those Chia Charge bars.  I'm not fit enough to ride uphill without going into Z3 for large periods of time so stick to low fat, low protein snacks like jam sandwiches and fruit when I'm going to be riding that bit harder and leave the more substantial stuff like Peanut butter or  cheese sandwiches and cake for the real easy rides.

I just checked and a Snickers bar actually has more protein and fat in it than the Chia Charge bars, so would probably be  even slower to digest, despite the higher sugar to long chain carb ratio.

In reply to Alkis:

I find fueling up a day or 2 before a big effort is nearly as important these days. Making sure I'm well hydrated and fed makes a huge difference to the actual day and sometimes means i actually top up less on the day. 

In reply to Alkis:

For me, I find I need to have a whole variety of options e.g. banana, flapjack, chewy bars, jelly babies, salty nuts etc as a I get sick of eating lots of the same sweet thing.  For long and hilly rides I have to set myself some rules of eating and drinking to a routine and sometimes this is by time, distance or on every significant descent.  When I do this well AND avoid pushing my HR up too high too often, I generally don't bonk and still feel ok at the end.  When I'm in dire straits or have pushed too hard, it's time to find a petrol station for a Mars milk and a bag of crips which is emergency fuel to get me home and hopefully avoid the full leg cramps!

In reply to VSisjustascramble:

I bonked. I started feeling defeated and very depressed, which must mean that my glucose levels were in the gutter. After recovery we had a couple of quite steep hills and then 20 miles later we were going up Snake Pass, which albeit less steep keeps going uphill for ~7.5km and I didn't seem to much of a problem with that.

I did make a point of spinning as much as possible on this ride, as I do have the tendency of pushing too hard and blowing my legs out on shorter rides, that and actively trying to eat more than normal is why I got caught by surprise at how low on energy I suddenly was and realised I must be doing something wrong.

Maltodexin in the water sounds interesting, especially as on rides like that I drink water quite often.

In reply to Alkis:

A rough rule of thumb is to consume  1g of carb per kg of bodyweight per hour. 

In reply to Alkis:

Hmm…

As other people have alluded to, I think the flatjacks might have been too complex to digest properly once you hit the hills and your blood was diverted to the legs and not the stomach. Maybe try to slam a gel in before the start of each climb?

I’m a big fan of maltodexrin in with the water. You can’t but help take in sugar. Mix it up with some squash and some isotonic tablets you’ve got a cheap energy drink (https://www.bodybuildingwarehouse.co.uk/pure-maltodextrin?ps=MTUwPTk5JjE1Mj...).

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Ok I was definitely well below that then, each of those bars has 45g and I wasn't having a couple an hour, they are quite filling).

In reply to Alkis:

One thing I have learned is to ensure salt content remains high enough. Up until an episode in Mallorca a few years back I had always assumed once riding I could get by on water and sugary energy. The episode in question I cycled from Andratx to Pollenca (around 70 miles, 2400m climbing) over the mountains on a day where temps were mid 30's, I drank lots and stopped before the main climb of Puig Major for cake, but started to feel sick on the way up. Knowing that at the top I was almost past the main difficulties I pushed on, however on a flat road 2 miles from the finish I collapsed into the roadside ditch from heat exhaustion (luckily I got off the bike before I fell off). Some passers by stopped and called an ambulance whilst pouring water over my head. I lost feeling in my arms and legs for over half and hour, pretty scary. Anyway I assumed it was dehydration, but actually the medics informed me I had sweated out all my salt. Now if I become aware I am sweating a lot I make sure I eat a big bag of crisps mid ride and really it does seem to help.

In reply to Richard Horn:

Thanks for the tip, although I never got to that level of screwed, I used to be quite bad at not having enough salts.

I now religiously put the prescribed amount of SIS Isotonic tablets into my water at all times (including refills), as I sweat so much that you could put the deposits on my jersey into a salt pot. 

In reply to Alkis:

There's nothing wrong (in principle) with 'fast' sugars. The only issue is that once you start you have to maintain the regular intake quite scrupulously. They're fast to absorb and fast to burn out.

For long rides, I tend to find that 'real' food works best for me. Earlier this week I was out for a steady 8 hours, fueled on pork pie, Eccles cake, ham bagel and fruit loaf with cheese (more or less in that order) with a Coop BLT thrown in half way round. Just plain water to drink. The various cereal bars and energy gels in my back pocket made it home unscathed to ride another day. Bits of me were aching at the end, but energy levels were fine. I think I need the variety and the taste - probably more psychological than physiological, but it works for me. I don't race, I go out to enjoy the day and food is part of that. One other point - perhaps obvious - is to eat early and often. Most of the food was consumed in the first 2/3 of the ride. Didn't need anything after that.

In reply to Alkis:

Fast sugar all day. As long as in = out (ish) its fine in my experience. 

In reply to Alkis:

I've done a reasonable amount of riding in the Alps and Pyrenees, both on a laden tourer and on a lightweight roadie, mostly for five or six consecutive days before a rest. What works for me is generally eating well the evening before with lots of cheese, then jelly babies on the ascent and a stop in the cafe on the col for a proper lunch, which gets semi digested on the way down, enough that you don't feel bloated when the next col comes up. I'm a big fan of coffee, a coke if its hot, caffeine gels as a get out of jail card and electrolytes in the water bottle. I used to do energy powders but they didn't really agree with me, plus I'm not a competitive athlete and I like my food so I get calories from that.

In reply to Alkis:

A mix, and not in a scientific way.  I like the Torq gels, but they're expensive so mixed them with a selection from one of the High5 mixed boxes.  Like the differences in textures and flavours, a whole day on one thing gets a bit much.

Lots of good advice in other people's comments.  I like to try and keep heart rate down as far as sensibly possible throughout the ride, watch hydration and salts.  Towards the end of the ride I've enjoyed both chips and jelly babies, although not at the same time.  Do find the odd bottle of coke from a garage refreshing, particularly if it's hot.

In reply to Alkis:

For me, one Sainsbury's iced fruit cake (essentially a block of Christmas cake), cut up into 'fat thumb' sized blocks, each wrapped in greaseproof paper,  Moist and easy to eat and don't fall apart.  A few Clif espresso or mocha gels - really, really good strong coffee flavour.  A baguette filled with butter (to keep it moist), ham, salami and a bit of pickle (also to keep it moist and add a bit of sharpness)  - wrapped in tin foil - waterproof and resealable.  The fruit cake is about £2.40 and smaller quantities are the food of choice for shorter rides.  For context, longest ride last year 350km and 365,000 feet climbed in the year (i particularly like that last stat).  I usually also put a heartburn tablet in tin foil in a pocket as being down and aero and eating for a long time can disagree with me.  Sometimes needed, most times not

In reply to Alkis:

Look also at what you eat in the days beforehand (carbo loading). If I know I've got a big day planned on the bike I'll ram the carbs in 24 hrs before so loads of pasta for example.

Then a big cereal breakfast just before the ride. Will take a few bananas and a few cereal bars. Plan to stop and refuel on cakes etc if you have a coffee stop but I'll also get a bottle of full fat coke if I stop to refill with water too.

A savory snack (marmite rice cakes) can take the edge off all the sweetness from energy bars. I don't touch gels until the final hour or so of a ride or if there's a big climb ahead and I need immediate energy. 

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

I thought 'carbo-loading' had been debunked a while back for anything more than a couple of hours of effort? OK if you're doing a slow half-marathon, but pointless otherwise (compared to simply eating well but normally). One other downside of carbo-loading was that your weight went up largely due to water retention required by the glycogen which is rarely a good thing when you're hitting the hills. I certainly toyed with it when I was seriously into mountain marathons and generally found it rather detrimental to performance.

In reply to Marek:

I'm no scientist but it seems to work for me. Find I don't 'boink' anywhere near as much as I used to without loading. 🤷‍♂️ 

In reply to Alkis:

I rode 187 kms a couple of Fridays back - the longest I've done in a few years. But I only clocked about 1500 mtrs of ascent over that. Of course if you've got loads of big hills to grind up it must make some difference, but it would be interesting to know by how much. Likewise, I was trying to ride off roads as much as possible so a reasonable chunk of that was on gravel or dirt tracks - tow paths, old railway lines etc. I wonder if that makes much difference?

Anyway, I had something like two bananas, a few Tesco flapjack bars, jelly babies, peanuts, a couple of mini pork pies and a cereal bar or two and a couple of cheese and pickle sarnies I made before I left home. I got a meal deal from Tesco Express in Lichfield - and went for a pasta pot and some fruit for my snack which was surprisingly healthy for me! I got a little chocolate milk for my drink - I'll go years with out buying choccy milk, but when you've done 8 hours+ riding a bike it just seems the perfect thing for me. I was getting a bit bored towards the end although riding through urban Black Country isn't the most inspiring scenery I guess, although the flights of locks are pretty cool in Dudley! But the food worked ok and I arrived at my destination feeling OK-ish (except for some saddle sores which just seem to be another rubbish part of getting old!).

In reply to Alkis: as a few others have said ....real food . Savoury  Stuff you find really appetising . For me tuna savoury or peanut butter with mashed banana on seedy rolls. White bread has very little energy whereas brown seedy bread has a reasonable amount . I find most energy gels are fine on a short hilly ride but a long hilly ride they make me throw up . I used to do long hilly rides with a mate who was really tight , he would plan in a supermarket stop . We would buy Really dark brown seedy Rolls , a tin or two  of tuna , a few bananas , a few bags of sweets and tins of coke .. all for a couple quid . Real food sat in Morrison’s car park . If no supermarket is on route then carry the above from the off . 

In reply to mike123:

Actually this thread is reminding me of my "nutrition" choices for a days climbing - it used to be bacon sandwich + massive pot of tea at the cafe, then on the way to the crag stop by at the corner shop to buy a Soreen Malt Loaf, an apple and maybe a chocolate bar, and that would suffice for the day! 

In reply to TobyA:

Variety is the spice of life! Especially on a bike. But I think think the thing that sometimes missed is not so much the 'type' of food, but the 'timing', i.e., you have to start eating early on in the ride (certainly far sooner than your getting hungry) and eating often. No doubt some nutritionist can correct me, but what you eat 'now' will fuel your legs at time 'now-plus-10-to-60-minutes' (depending on the glycemic index). If I'm out all day, then I make a point of starting eating (normal food, mixed GI, e.g., mini pork pie plus Eccles cake) within the first hour. It sometimes even worth putting a 30-60 minute timer going on your bike computer to remind you to eat something. If you wait till you feel hungry then you're much more likely to bonk.

In reply to nniff:

I'm in awe at the size of your pockets !

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

I thought that eating carbs the day beforehand was only half of what 'carbo loading' was - I thought that you were supposed to wean yourself off carbs for a few days before the event and then load up the day before.  Not that I've tried it.

In reply to GrahamD:

That was a key part of the way carbo loading was done in the 1980's and what I tried for my 2nd ever marathon in 1983. I didn't hit the wall nearly anything as badly as I had done the previous year without carbo loading. I've no proof if that was down to the carb loading or slightly different training and pacing though.

I'm not really up to date with the current thinking on this but I do remember see ing an article suggesting the carb depletion part of loading was not considered so important now.

In reply to GrahamD:

Yes, the idea was to force a glycogen 'overload' in response to a short depletion cycle (a couple of low carb days plus hard runs). As I mentioned earlier, the downside was a 'bloated' feeling the next day due to the extra water retention. Another issue was also the the early bloat tended to discourage any eating and drinking in the first hour or two, which then had negative consequences when your somewhat boosted but still limited glycogen started to run out 3-4 hours into your 'day out'.

I'm sure experience varied, but I knew lots of people who played with carbo-loading prior to events, but no one bothered for more than a couple of trial years. The negatives just outweighed the positives (for day-long or multiday events anyway).

In reply to Marek:

looking at some of the replies it sounds as if a Big Mac meal mid ride might be a good idea I usually sustain on gels and bars but have been known to stop for a bag of chips and a can of coke

Loads of good suggestions to ponder on here. I'm not sure I can go for the normal food approach, as I always badly struggle to eat normal stuff, sandwiches etc. when doing exercise, my stomach doesn't like it. Becayse of this, I spent years basically not eating on the mountains and that's something I cannot get away with when cycling.

I did try and carb load before this one, by having a lot of pasta the evening before. It didn't feel like it helped much. It looks like I need to go for more variety, start eating earlier and experiment loads.

One thing that stuck out is that with the guideline of 1g of carbs per kg per hour, I was undercarbed. The stuff I was eating has half that.

In reply to GrahamD:

to be fair, I don't take the whole cake - only about eight 'thumbs-worth', but a baguette thingy fits nicely in a pocket - not the two feet long version, because that would be the act of a maniac....

In reply to nniff:

Middle jersey pocket, hidden pin higher up to hold it in place, could be done! It would even force you to keep a relatively straight back!

In reply to Alkis:

Sounds to me like you need better conditioning as much as anything. I can’t see how you can knock after 40 miles unless you’re going deep into the red on the climbs. 

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Undoubtedly, I approach all rides with sheer bloody minded determination more than fitness, it's just that is resulting in fitness over time.

However, looking at the data from the ride, that happened 1500 out of 3350m of ascent in and even though I have had loss of power on similar rides, I've never crashed quite this bad before.

That's why I'm trying to figure out what on earth happened. From the word go I was feeling lower on energy than normal, even though I was eating more than I'm used to, and it remained so until I got on the sugar.

In reply to Alkis:

My suggestion would be long steady rides on flatter terrain (maybe the odd fasted ride at v low intensity) to increase glycogen and then for harder days like you described a good dose of carbs through rice or pasta etc the day before, then a big bowl of porridge with some fruit and honey/sugar in the morning. Sugar is what you need when riding e.g. gels, jelly babies, bananas, energy drinks - as much as your stomach can stand it.