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I'm thinking electric bike laws are outdated and will restrict the development of these types of vehicles as viable alternatives for 20K commutes or even short trips to the shops.
Currently UK laws limit standard push bikes to 200-250 watts and their speed also. Technology is to the point where we can have decent Hybrid electric bikes (throttle or pedelec) which will make commuting for a large portion of the population feasible without arriving a sweaty and knackered mess.
Should the laws be relaxed a little to allow for throttle only electric bikes on public highways and cycle paths where speed is limited?
Surely by opening up the laws to allow the less fit (and just more people) to commute using an electric bike will reduce traffic, pollution and commuter times (in some cases). I concede that the accident rate will remain roughly unchanged.
I am thinking of buying a certain bike for my commute but the way I want to ride it would not technically be legal, even though I would ride it safely.
Currently UK laws limit standard push bikes to 200-250 watts and their speed also. Technology is to the point where we can have decent Hybrid electric bikes (throttle or pedelec) which will make commuting for a large portion of the population feasible without arriving a sweaty and knackered mess.
Should the laws be relaxed a little to allow for throttle only electric bikes on public highways and cycle paths where speed is limited?
Surely by opening up the laws to allow the less fit (and just more people) to commute using an electric bike will reduce traffic, pollution and commuter times (in some cases). I concede that the accident rate will remain roughly unchanged.
I am thinking of buying a certain bike for my commute but the way I want to ride it would not technically be legal, even though I would ride it safely.
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In reply to cap'nChino
I'd suggest that relaxing the current law would see a dramatic rise in the accident rate.
I'd suggest that relaxing the current law would see a dramatic rise in the accident rate.
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In reply to cap'nChino:
I can't recall how exactly they are presently limited, but if being used on cycle paths a top speed of about 10-15mph would be necessary I reckon.
I can't recall how exactly they are presently limited, but if being used on cycle paths a top speed of about 10-15mph would be necessary I reckon.
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In reply to cap'nChino:
In some ways an electric bike at a consistently high speed could be safer than a pedal bike at the same speed, as the rider can be more relaxed, more focused on situational awareness than exertion and less invested in maintiaining their speed at all costs.
On the other hand, many more people might end up going on bikes and at speed. For that to be safe it would I think need a higher degree of training and insurance than now.
Perhaps - if at current powered speed limits. Beyond that, for example throttle only and 25 mph, I think a requirement for passing the theory test and insurance should be mandatory at least.
I agree that electronic bikes could have a massive role to play. I'd use one in the non-winter months now so I could commute sweat free in a reasonable time, but the legal consequences of getting done, whilst unlikely to happen, are unaffordable high for me as a motorist - driving an unroadworthy vehicle without tax (even if zero-rated), MOT or insurance. Ouch.
In some ways an electric bike at a consistently high speed could be safer than a pedal bike at the same speed, as the rider can be more relaxed, more focused on situational awareness than exertion and less invested in maintiaining their speed at all costs.
On the other hand, many more people might end up going on bikes and at speed. For that to be safe it would I think need a higher degree of training and insurance than now.
> Should the laws be relaxed a little to allow for throttle only electric bikes on public highways and cycle paths where speed is limited?
Perhaps - if at current powered speed limits. Beyond that, for example throttle only and 25 mph, I think a requirement for passing the theory test and insurance should be mandatory at least.
I agree that electronic bikes could have a massive role to play. I'd use one in the non-winter months now so I could commute sweat free in a reasonable time, but the legal consequences of getting done, whilst unlikely to happen, are unaffordable high for me as a motorist - driving an unroadworthy vehicle without tax (even if zero-rated), MOT or insurance. Ouch.
Post edited at 08:29
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In reply to cap'nChino:
At what point does an electric bike become a motorcycle? And do we want people riding motorbikes on cycle paths without having had any training and without any insurance.
I don't. The current crop of pedal assist bikes are plenty powerful enough and it's not the top speed or power output that restricts their utility, it's battery capacity weight and price. And the utility of an e-bike is to get you up hills.
Any cyclist putting out 300 watts for a sustained period is doing very well so e-bikes don't need such power.
At what point does an electric bike become a motorcycle? And do we want people riding motorbikes on cycle paths without having had any training and without any insurance.
I don't. The current crop of pedal assist bikes are plenty powerful enough and it's not the top speed or power output that restricts their utility, it's battery capacity weight and price. And the utility of an e-bike is to get you up hills.
Any cyclist putting out 300 watts for a sustained period is doing very well so e-bikes don't need such power.
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In reply to cap'nChino:
I'd say the law is just fine and the number of people ignoring it is a concern. The type of bike you describe is classed as an electric moped and is not illegal, but subject to same regulations as motorbikes.
The issue for me comes with off-road use, where motorbikes are a major problem. Its one thing to use pedelec bikes, where the electric motor merely assists the rider up to a certain speed and takes the sting out of the hills for those that need it. However the use of much faster, more powerful and heavier bikes on these trails is a concern, particularly if, as you want, you can simply apply the throttle to get up something. As someone who has been straffed by gravel thrown up by inconsiderate motorbikers I like to avoid them as possible.
Blurring the lines between motorised bikes and human powered ones is going to make it harder to increase access for cyclists. The 1968 act that limits mountain bikes to bridleways is far more outdated that the limits on mopeds.
I'd say the law is just fine and the number of people ignoring it is a concern. The type of bike you describe is classed as an electric moped and is not illegal, but subject to same regulations as motorbikes.
The issue for me comes with off-road use, where motorbikes are a major problem. Its one thing to use pedelec bikes, where the electric motor merely assists the rider up to a certain speed and takes the sting out of the hills for those that need it. However the use of much faster, more powerful and heavier bikes on these trails is a concern, particularly if, as you want, you can simply apply the throttle to get up something. As someone who has been straffed by gravel thrown up by inconsiderate motorbikers I like to avoid them as possible.
Blurring the lines between motorised bikes and human powered ones is going to make it harder to increase access for cyclists. The 1968 act that limits mountain bikes to bridleways is far more outdated that the limits on mopeds.
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In reply to cap'nChino:
The cynic in me says I wouldn't worry, you won't be caught - the police don't have the manpower or even understanding of what's available to be pulling over cyclists to check what wattage their bike is.
I've personally seen a chap on a petrol moped take a shortcut straight across a local park footpath, with every indication that it's a regular occurrence for him, and several others using cycle tracks to get around the traffic.
You'll only have problems if you're in an accident or have a habit of screaming around near a sink estate while wearing a hoodie.
The cynic in me says I wouldn't worry, you won't be caught - the police don't have the manpower or even understanding of what's available to be pulling over cyclists to check what wattage their bike is.
I've personally seen a chap on a petrol moped take a shortcut straight across a local park footpath, with every indication that it's a regular occurrence for him, and several others using cycle tracks to get around the traffic.
You'll only have problems if you're in an accident or have a habit of screaming around near a sink estate while wearing a hoodie.
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In reply to cap'nChino:
Agree. They should be more flexible to give a developing market & technology a chance to reduce pollution & congestion.
If more people get a bit of exercise with electric assist that would probably outweigh risk of accidents.
Agree. They should be more flexible to give a developing market & technology a chance to reduce pollution & congestion.
If more people get a bit of exercise with electric assist that would probably outweigh risk of accidents.
Post edited at 11:40
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In reply to elsewhere:
There has to be a certain performance limit above which a vehicle is deemed 'powered' and requires some proven competency level and also that some level of segregation exists between pedestrians, cycles and motorised.
To be classed as a cycle and to use the (woefully inadequate) cycle facilities (which are often shared with pedestrians) It makes sense that this performance is somewhere near the top level an unpowered cyclist can achieve as at present. Beyond that it is in the realms of scooters and mopeds. So why not electric scooters ?
> Agree. They should be more flexible to give a developing market & technology a chance to reduce pollution & congestion.
There has to be a certain performance limit above which a vehicle is deemed 'powered' and requires some proven competency level and also that some level of segregation exists between pedestrians, cycles and motorised.
To be classed as a cycle and to use the (woefully inadequate) cycle facilities (which are often shared with pedestrians) It makes sense that this performance is somewhere near the top level an unpowered cyclist can achieve as at present. Beyond that it is in the realms of scooters and mopeds. So why not electric scooters ?
In reply to cap'nChino: I don't see any problem with the current legislation, if you want more power do a CBT and get an electric scooter.
For less fit commuters 15.5mph is a decent cruising speed for an unregistered and uninsured bike.
For less fit commuters 15.5mph is a decent cruising speed for an unregistered and uninsured bike.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Seems a bit low - I would say that I cycle faster than this (without the electric assistance) 90% of the time, so seems unfair to penalize e-bikes.
> I can't recall how exactly they are presently limited, but if being used on cycle paths a top speed of about 10-15mph would be necessary I reckon.
Seems a bit low - I would say that I cycle faster than this (without the electric assistance) 90% of the time, so seems unfair to penalize e-bikes.
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In reply to ianstevens:
You can go faster but the motor cuts out. I think it's the best compromise, stops e riders doing 20mph on cycle paths where roadies wouldn't be able to get up to that speed.
> Seems a bit low - I would say that I cycle faster than this (without the electric assistance) 90% of the time, so seems unfair to penalize e-bikes.
You can go faster but the motor cuts out. I think it's the best compromise, stops e riders doing 20mph on cycle paths where roadies wouldn't be able to get up to that speed.
Post edited at 12:13
In reply to ianstevens:
Pedal assist cuts off at 15mph.
There's nothing to stop you pedalling faster than this under your own steam which is how it should be.
Pedal assist cuts off at 15mph.
There's nothing to stop you pedalling faster than this under your own steam which is how it should be.
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In reply to GrahamD:
Maybe there should be a range of limits including an intermediate level between ebike (pushbike law) and moped (motor vehicle law). Pick and chose based on what works in other countries - you see a funny (to us) mix in Amsterdam of bicycles and mopeds with no helmets and little 4 wheelers or 3 wheelers using pedestrian ferries.
It would be intermediate wattage, speed, legal, insurance, helmet requirements but to get mass adoption it has to be a significant change.
Maybe there should be a range of limits including an intermediate level between ebike (pushbike law) and moped (motor vehicle law). Pick and chose based on what works in other countries - you see a funny (to us) mix in Amsterdam of bicycles and mopeds with no helmets and little 4 wheelers or 3 wheelers using pedestrian ferries.
It would be intermediate wattage, speed, legal, insurance, helmet requirements but to get mass adoption it has to be a significant change.
In reply to cap'nChino:
well from my experience of cycling in London, many ebikes are already going faster than 15mph, of course there seems to be plenty of online advice as to how to overcome limitations. I manage to cycle into London with out getting hot and sweaty, just go slower, use a pannier rather than a rucksack so no sweat patch on the back. 15mph on a shared path, as many cycle paths are, is too much, similar to someone sprinting but much more mass.
well from my experience of cycling in London, many ebikes are already going faster than 15mph, of course there seems to be plenty of online advice as to how to overcome limitations. I manage to cycle into London with out getting hot and sweaty, just go slower, use a pannier rather than a rucksack so no sweat patch on the back. 15mph on a shared path, as many cycle paths are, is too much, similar to someone sprinting but much more mass.
In reply to ianstevens:
Depends what they're for. I don't care if they have a top speed of 70+ mph, but in that case they need to be ridden on the road. Just like the road is typically a more sensible place than a cycle path for someone riding an unpowered bike at the higher end of the possible speeds.
> Seems a bit low - I would say that I cycle faster than this (without the electric assistance) 90% of the time, so seems unfair to penalize e-bikes.
Depends what they're for. I don't care if they have a top speed of 70+ mph, but in that case they need to be ridden on the road. Just like the road is typically a more sensible place than a cycle path for someone riding an unpowered bike at the higher end of the possible speeds.
In reply to Mike Stretford:
Didn't realise that this was the case - seems reasonable to me.
> You can go faster but the motor cuts out. I think it's the best compromise, stops e riders doing 20mph on cycle paths where roadies wouldn't be able to get up to that speed.
Didn't realise that this was the case - seems reasonable to me.
In reply to Mike Stretford:
Wattage or speed limits won't prevent an arse being arse as you can be going too fast at speeds much less than 20mph (eg toddlers wandering about as you cycle through a park).
Wattage or speed limits won't prevent an arse being arse as you can be going too fast at speeds much less than 20mph (eg toddlers wandering about as you cycle through a park).
In reply to elsewhere:
No, but it will limit the proliferation of arsery.
> Wattage or speed limits won't prevent an arse being arse
No, but it will limit the proliferation of arsery.
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
Or at least limit the amount of damage the arsery can cause to others.
> No, but it will limit the proliferation of arsery.
Or at least limit the amount of damage the arsery can cause to others.
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In reply to elsewhere:
At some point, though, you have to decide whether they can share the infrastructure often shared with pedestrians. There isn't an intermediate grade of infrastructure in this country ('cycle express way' or similar) so its road or not road, really.
> Maybe there should be a range of limits including an intermediate level between ebike (pushbike law) and moped (motor vehicle law).
At some point, though, you have to decide whether they can share the infrastructure often shared with pedestrians. There isn't an intermediate grade of infrastructure in this country ('cycle express way' or similar) so its road or not road, really.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
That may be true in London, but most places where the cycle lane isn't part of the road, its shared with pedestrians. Quite hard to get legislation to work around the different cycle way categories, I'd have thought.
That may be true in London, but most places where the cycle lane isn't part of the road, its shared with pedestrians. Quite hard to get legislation to work around the different cycle way categories, I'd have thought.
In reply to GrahamD:
A century of having legislation for different types of roads and road users suggests that's not insurmountable.
> That may be true in London, but most places where the cycle lane isn't part of the road, its shared with pedestrians. Quite hard to get legislation to work around the different cycle way categories, I'd have thought.
A century of having legislation for different types of roads and road users suggests that's not insurmountable.
In reply to elsewhere:
What sort of legislation / segregation are you looking at ? the next category up from ebike is a moped and legisalation is already there to cover it - they go on the road. My point was more about the nature of facilities. A cycle path is used by unlicensed pedestrians, cyclists and low power e-bikes. I can't think of many facilities where I would want to add unlicensed mopeds into that mix or even to allow licensed mopeds onto cycle paths as a blanket rule. In reality very few cycle paths are suitable.
> A century of having legislation for different types of roads and road users suggests that's not insurmountable.
What sort of legislation / segregation are you looking at ? the next category up from ebike is a moped and legisalation is already there to cover it - they go on the road. My point was more about the nature of facilities. A cycle path is used by unlicensed pedestrians, cyclists and low power e-bikes. I can't think of many facilities where I would want to add unlicensed mopeds into that mix or even to allow licensed mopeds onto cycle paths as a blanket rule. In reality very few cycle paths are suitable.
In reply to GrahamD:
Put them on the roads like bicycles or look to mofa law in Germany or whatever the law is in Netherlands for ideas. I don't think UK is uniquely incapable of coping with different types of vehicle.
https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/transport/driving-licences/motorbi...
A Mofa is a small moped or motor-assisted bicycle that can be driven up to 25 Km/h by anyone of 15 or over, without a driving licence. However, it is necessary to pass a written and practical test. These are offered by the majority of driving schools (Fahrschule). Helmets are mandatory.
A Mofa must comply with the following:
It must be less than 50cc
It must use less than 0.5 Kw of power
It must weigh no more than 30 Kg when empty
The front wheel must be no more than 26cm wide
The back wheel must be no more than 28cm wide
for another alternative - 45kph?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_(vehicle)
Put them on the roads like bicycles or look to mofa law in Germany or whatever the law is in Netherlands for ideas. I don't think UK is uniquely incapable of coping with different types of vehicle.
https://www.angloinfo.com/how-to/germany/transport/driving-licences/motorbi...
A Mofa is a small moped or motor-assisted bicycle that can be driven up to 25 Km/h by anyone of 15 or over, without a driving licence. However, it is necessary to pass a written and practical test. These are offered by the majority of driving schools (Fahrschule). Helmets are mandatory.
A Mofa must comply with the following:
It must be less than 50cc
It must use less than 0.5 Kw of power
It must weigh no more than 30 Kg when empty
The front wheel must be no more than 26cm wide
The back wheel must be no more than 28cm wide
for another alternative - 45kph?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canta_(vehicle)
Post edited at 18:34
In reply to elsewhere:
I'm not sure what your point is ? the examples you give aren't very different from e-bike (25 kph) and moped (50 kph). At some point you have to draw a line on what you want to mix with kids cycling and pedestrians and what belongs on the road and at the moment the limit is e-bike which looks like a sensible limit to me.
I'm not sure what your point is ? the examples you give aren't very different from e-bike (25 kph) and moped (50 kph). At some point you have to draw a line on what you want to mix with kids cycling and pedestrians and what belongs on the road and at the moment the limit is e-bike which looks like a sensible limit to me.
In reply to elsewhere: The UK has moped category which is in between e bike and motorbike, give or take a few watts we are similar to countries.
In reply to GrahamD:
Legally the Canta is closer to bicycle (no licence or number plate) despite 2 seats, 4 wheels, enclosed, 45kph and an engine.
They even go on pedestrian ferries!
My point is we should facilitate new solutions such something between an ebike and what is currently a UK motor vehicle.
Legally the Canta is closer to bicycle (no licence or number plate) despite 2 seats, 4 wheels, enclosed, 45kph and an engine.
They even go on pedestrian ferries!
My point is we should facilitate new solutions such something between an ebike and what is currently a UK motor vehicle.
Post edited at 19:02
In reply to cap'nChino:
How common are electric bikes now in the UK? Whilst in France last week, I'd say that of those I saw cycling on their own, at least 25% were on electric bikes. There were still plenty of peleton-stylee groups of course who were on standard road bikes.
How common are electric bikes now in the UK? Whilst in France last week, I'd say that of those I saw cycling on their own, at least 25% were on electric bikes. There were still plenty of peleton-stylee groups of course who were on standard road bikes.
In reply to elsewhere:
The issue is that the public are car obsessed and the powers that be don't give a sh!t about people who don't drive because we don't bank roll them through the massive tax on fuel. Can you really see people scrapping their Chelsea tractors for a odd looking micro car? If people were happy to use alternatives to their cars we wouldn't have the car Vs bike war situation we currently have.
> My point is we should facilitate new solutions such something between an ebike and what is currently a UK motor vehicle.
The issue is that the public are car obsessed and the powers that be don't give a sh!t about people who don't drive because we don't bank roll them through the massive tax on fuel. Can you really see people scrapping their Chelsea tractors for a odd looking micro car? If people were happy to use alternatives to their cars we wouldn't have the car Vs bike war situation we currently have.
In reply to Fraser:
Wow. I don't even remember seeing one in use here.
> How common are electric bikes now in the UK? Whilst in France last week, I'd say that of those I saw cycling on their own, at least 25% were on electric bikes. There were still plenty of peleton-stylee groups of course who were on standard road bikes.
Wow. I don't even remember seeing one in use here.
In reply to elsewhere:
I was really surprised too, as I'd not noticed any when I was there in January.
I was really surprised too, as I'd not noticed any when I was there in January.
In reply to gethin_allen:
We only have that nonsense in the minds of people who like to perpetuate it. It's perfectly possible to drive a car or ride a bike without having an awful lot to do with it. You just have to take a defensive/accommodative rather than assertive/aggressive approach on the road and apart from the odd idiot it pretty much goes away whichever type of conveyance you are using.
> we wouldn't have the car Vs bike war situation we currently have.
We only have that nonsense in the minds of people who like to perpetuate it. It's perfectly possible to drive a car or ride a bike without having an awful lot to do with it. You just have to take a defensive/accommodative rather than assertive/aggressive approach on the road and apart from the odd idiot it pretty much goes away whichever type of conveyance you are using.
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In reply to elsewhere:
What would that achieve? The point of ebikes is that they can be regarded as assisted push-bikes with all the legal privileges those enjoy, which as well as the right to use cycle paths and bridleways also means that helmets, a licence and insurance are not obligatory. If that's not enough for you there are proper electric motorbikes, again covering the full range from scooters up to superbikes (the Lightning LS218 will do more than 200 mph), but then of course you are subject to the same laws as other motorbikes.
In Northern Ireland ebikes don't currently have this exemption, and there the law is seen as an obstacle to getting people out of cars and onto bikes. There are now moves to bring the law into line with the rest of the UK.
> My point is we should facilitate new solutions such something between an ebike and what is currently a UK motor vehicle.
What would that achieve? The point of ebikes is that they can be regarded as assisted push-bikes with all the legal privileges those enjoy, which as well as the right to use cycle paths and bridleways also means that helmets, a licence and insurance are not obligatory. If that's not enough for you there are proper electric motorbikes, again covering the full range from scooters up to superbikes (the Lightning LS218 will do more than 200 mph), but then of course you are subject to the same laws as other motorbikes.
In Northern Ireland ebikes don't currently have this exemption, and there the law is seen as an obstacle to getting people out of cars and onto bikes. There are now moves to bring the law into line with the rest of the UK.
In reply to elsewhere:
Those are pretty wide tyres for a bicycle.
> A Mofa must comply with the following:
> ...
> The front wheel must be no more than 26cm wide
> The back wheel must be no more than 28cm wide
> ...
> The front wheel must be no more than 26cm wide
> The back wheel must be no more than 28cm wide
Those are pretty wide tyres for a bicycle.
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In reply to cap'nChino:
What way are you wanting to ride? You haven't said. Current restricted ebikes are plenty powerful and quick enough for most towns, and busy or shared use areas. The less fit provided they can handle a bike should have little problem as is. Fitter folk can just pedal faster after the assistance stops.
I'm an ebike user of some three years and come into the less fit category. For me it was either giving up biking or get an ebike. I see no reason to relax laws. For the less fit, you can actually average a higher speed overall compared with a non assisted bike so could be a bigger danger on the roads/paths. If you just want faster, then as others have said there are other options.
> I am thinking of buying a certain bike for my commute but the way I want to ride it would not technically be legal, even though I would ride it safely.
What way are you wanting to ride? You haven't said. Current restricted ebikes are plenty powerful and quick enough for most towns, and busy or shared use areas. The less fit provided they can handle a bike should have little problem as is. Fitter folk can just pedal faster after the assistance stops.
I'm an ebike user of some three years and come into the less fit category. For me it was either giving up biking or get an ebike. I see no reason to relax laws. For the less fit, you can actually average a higher speed overall compared with a non assisted bike so could be a bigger danger on the roads/paths. If you just want faster, then as others have said there are other options.
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In reply to LastBoyScout:
Fat bikes are the future!
Or it should have be translated to diameter.
> Those are pretty wide tyres for a bicycle.
Fat bikes are the future!
Or it should have be translated to diameter.
In reply to Fraser:
I think ebike sales are up in France because you can currently get 20% off a new bike (up to 200 euros) through a government scheme. Over the last couple of months I've also seen a lot of electric mountain bikes.
I think ebike sales are up in France because you can currently get 20% off a new bike (up to 200 euros) through a government scheme. Over the last couple of months I've also seen a lot of electric mountain bikes.
In reply to elsewhere:
But where could you use them ? I'd be very averse to using anything bigger than an e bike on a shared pedestrian path.
> My point is we should facilitate new solutions such something between an ebike and what is currently a UK motor vehicle.
But where could you use them ? I'd be very averse to using anything bigger than an e bike on a shared pedestrian path.
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In reply to gethin_allen:
Bloody hell, I'm confused now. I have a car and two bikes. Which side of this war am I on ?
> we wouldn't have the car Vs bike war situation we currently have.
Bloody hell, I'm confused now. I have a car and two bikes. Which side of this war am I on ?
In reply to cap'nChino:
So long as you don't mind complying with scooter regs you can have a fully electric bike right now.
So long as you don't mind complying with scooter regs you can have a fully electric bike right now.
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In reply to GrahamD:
On the road is my best answer but I'm open to new ideas or what has worked in other countries.
> But where could you use them ? I'd be very averse to using anything bigger than an e bike on a shared pedestrian path.
On the road is my best answer but I'm open to new ideas or what has worked in other countries.
Post edited at 11:39
In reply to elsewhere:
Sounds like you need an electric scooter then.
> On the road is my best answer but I'm open to new ideas or what has worked in other countries.
Sounds like you need an electric scooter then.
In reply to GrahamD:
The whole point of the OP is not to fit these vehicles into existing law because "electric bike laws are outdated and will restrict the development of these types of vehicles as viable alternatives".
I think we have a technological and legal gap between 15mph 250W ebike and 30-70mph motor vehicles (electric/petrol/diesel moped to HGV inclusive).
Overseas there are examples of how the UK's technological and legal gap in the 15-30mph range can be approached differently. Hence I think the law should facilitate intermediate solutions that are neither current ebikes nor current motor vehicles.
> Sounds like you need an electric scooter then.
The whole point of the OP is not to fit these vehicles into existing law because "electric bike laws are outdated and will restrict the development of these types of vehicles as viable alternatives".
I think we have a technological and legal gap between 15mph 250W ebike and 30-70mph motor vehicles (electric/petrol/diesel moped to HGV inclusive).
Overseas there are examples of how the UK's technological and legal gap in the 15-30mph range can be approached differently. Hence I think the law should facilitate intermediate solutions that are neither current ebikes nor current motor vehicles.
In reply to elsewhere:
There is no gap, we call it a 'moped'.
https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped/bike-categories-ages-and-licence-r...
Category AM is the easiest licence to get, and you can get it at 16. The vehicles must have certain equipment and a licence plate to be road legal..... with good reason!
There aren't many road legal versions in the UK but that's probably more down to public preference.
> I think we have a technological and legal gap between 15mph 250W ebike and 30-70mph motor vehicles (electric/petrol/diesel moped to HGV inclusive).
There is no gap, we call it a 'moped'.
https://www.gov.uk/ride-motorcycle-moped/bike-categories-ages-and-licence-r...
Category AM is the easiest licence to get, and you can get it at 16. The vehicles must have certain equipment and a licence plate to be road legal..... with good reason!
There aren't many road legal versions in the UK but that's probably more down to public preference.
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In reply to Mike Stretford:
Mopeds are motor vehicles with licence, insurance, MoT test and number plate.
Mopeds are motor vehicles with licence, insurance, MoT test and number plate.
Post edited at 13:13
In reply to elsewhere:
I know, I basically said the same in my post. The category covers electric two wheeled vehicles in the 15-30mph range. The are requirements as you say but they are lesser than those for a motorbike or car. There is no 'legal gap'. The German Mofa is the same as our ebikes in speed, and their Mockick needs an AM licence..... that's from the link you posted.
> Mopeds are motor vehicles with licence, insurance, MoT test and number plate.
I know, I basically said the same in my post. The category covers electric two wheeled vehicles in the 15-30mph range. The are requirements as you say but they are lesser than those for a motorbike or car. There is no 'legal gap'. The German Mofa is the same as our ebikes in speed, and their Mockick needs an AM licence..... that's from the link you posted.
Post edited at 14:01
In reply to elsewhere:
People ride bicycles on the pavement. They shouldn't but they do. I think an electrically powered machine doing more than 15mph but not regulated in any way, is not what we want going all the places bicycles go at the moment.
People ride bicycles on the pavement. They shouldn't but they do. I think an electrically powered machine doing more than 15mph but not regulated in any way, is not what we want going all the places bicycles go at the moment.
In reply to elsewhere:
Well the fact that electric scooters exist proves that development has not been restricted. I'm not sure where you see the law can be changed, other than to allow mopeds (which is exactly the category you describe) to ride on shared pedestrian paths.
> The whole point of the OP is not to fit these vehicles into existing law because "electric bike laws are outdated and will restrict the development of these types of vehicles as viable alternatives".
Well the fact that electric scooters exist proves that development has not been restricted. I'm not sure where you see the law can be changed, other than to allow mopeds (which is exactly the category you describe) to ride on shared pedestrian paths.
In reply to GrahamD:
Why pedestrian paths? Why scooters rather than enclosed passenger or cargo carrying?
I'd think more on the lines of the roads for higher power/faster ebikes, microcar* or other variants in intermediate legal classifications between current ebike and motor vehicle.
*see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOIrBqt21c4or the French equivalent for example
Why pedestrian paths? Why scooters rather than enclosed passenger or cargo carrying?
I'd think more on the lines of the roads for higher power/faster ebikes, microcar* or other variants in intermediate legal classifications between current ebike and motor vehicle.
*see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOIrBqt21c4or the French equivalent for example
Post edited at 18:02
In reply to elsewhere:
That may be the case, but why is it a problem? If it were to be filled, how do you envisage these bikes/vehicles would be used? If they are doing more than 15 mph they shouldn't be on cycle paths, and if they are on the road then they should be regulated like other road vehicles.
> I think we have a technological and legal gap between 15mph 250W ebike and 30-70mph motor vehicles (electric/petrol/diesel moped to HGV inclusive).
That may be the case, but why is it a problem? If it were to be filled, how do you envisage these bikes/vehicles would be used? If they are doing more than 15 mph they shouldn't be on cycle paths, and if they are on the road then they should be regulated like other road vehicles.
1
In reply to Howard J:
There might be space for better solutions for different users.
That's really up to the requirements of the private user or business but I'd expect mostly urban transport in the ebike to microcar range.
fair enough
Regulations differ for different vehicles so do you mean like cyclist on a bicycle, a few tons of horse & cart, a motor vehicle or something else such as an intermediate?
> That may be the case, but why is it a problem?
There might be space for better solutions for different users.
> If it were to be filled, how do you envisage these bikes/vehicles would be used?
That's really up to the requirements of the private user or business but I'd expect mostly urban transport in the ebike to microcar range.
> If they are doing more than 15 mph they shouldn't be on cycle paths,
fair enough
> and if they are on the road then they should be regulated like other road vehicles.
Regulations differ for different vehicles so do you mean like cyclist on a bicycle, a few tons of horse & cart, a motor vehicle or something else such as an intermediate?
In reply to Howard J:
This is where it gets tricky. There is clearly a safety aspect to think of on the footpaths and the road, pedestrians and cyclist respectively. But currently anyone riding a bike can get to speeds fast enough to cause injury to themselves or to pedestrians. I suppose my angle does it really matter how the bike gets to the high speed, whether it be pedelec, throttle or leg power.
We are at a point where electric is no longer the future but is the present, we should embrace every opportunity to get people out of cars and on to bike for short journeys.
To me it seems counter productive to put high powered electric bikes in the same catagory as a moped, certainly when it comes to MOT's and registration. Less regualtion not more is the only way people will jump on a bike and not a car.
That said I have no solution to the problem I am bringing up.
> That may be the case, but why is it a problem? If it were to be filled, how do you envisage these bikes/vehicles would be used? If they are doing more than 15 mph they shouldn't be on cycle paths, and if they are on the road then they should be regulated like other road vehicles.
This is where it gets tricky. There is clearly a safety aspect to think of on the footpaths and the road, pedestrians and cyclist respectively. But currently anyone riding a bike can get to speeds fast enough to cause injury to themselves or to pedestrians. I suppose my angle does it really matter how the bike gets to the high speed, whether it be pedelec, throttle or leg power.
We are at a point where electric is no longer the future but is the present, we should embrace every opportunity to get people out of cars and on to bike for short journeys.
To me it seems counter productive to put high powered electric bikes in the same catagory as a moped, certainly when it comes to MOT's and registration. Less regualtion not more is the only way people will jump on a bike and not a car.
That said I have no solution to the problem I am bringing up.
In reply to cap'nChino:
There are certainly widespread concerns about those pedal cyclists who go pelting along cycle paths heads-down at high speed trying to beat their Strava time, but most casual users pootle along at a more gentle pace. The problem is it is impossible to enforce speed limits so the only control is by restricting the type of user. It is possible to ban motorbikes from cycle paths, but not different categories of pedal cyclists. Unfortunately that does mean that some permitted users ride faster than is safe or desirable, but opening up these paths to other high speed machines would only make the matter worse
Ebikes are aimed at people who want to cycle but who welcome a bit of assistance with hills or longer distances. They can be allowed on cycle paths because they are limited to speeds which are compatible with other users. If you are more concerned with going fast there are plenty of options, but these are not suitable for cycle paths and you will have to stick to the roads. In that case, you should be subject to the road's rules about tax, insurance, helmets etc. However if you don't want to be subject to those, you can still go on the road with an ebike just as an ordinary cyclist can.
Far from encouraging bike users, deregulating ebikes to go faster would only result in them being banned from many cycle paths. Many cycle paths, including most of the National Cycle Network which is not on public roads or bridleways, are permissive routes and the landowners would be entitled to exclude ebikes regardless of what the general law might allow. I think many landowners would probably do this if they were deregulated.
Apart from wishing to go faster, I am still struggling to understand what activity is currently impossible because both ebikes and faster mopeds/bikes/cars are not suitable.
There are certainly widespread concerns about those pedal cyclists who go pelting along cycle paths heads-down at high speed trying to beat their Strava time, but most casual users pootle along at a more gentle pace. The problem is it is impossible to enforce speed limits so the only control is by restricting the type of user. It is possible to ban motorbikes from cycle paths, but not different categories of pedal cyclists. Unfortunately that does mean that some permitted users ride faster than is safe or desirable, but opening up these paths to other high speed machines would only make the matter worse
Ebikes are aimed at people who want to cycle but who welcome a bit of assistance with hills or longer distances. They can be allowed on cycle paths because they are limited to speeds which are compatible with other users. If you are more concerned with going fast there are plenty of options, but these are not suitable for cycle paths and you will have to stick to the roads. In that case, you should be subject to the road's rules about tax, insurance, helmets etc. However if you don't want to be subject to those, you can still go on the road with an ebike just as an ordinary cyclist can.
Far from encouraging bike users, deregulating ebikes to go faster would only result in them being banned from many cycle paths. Many cycle paths, including most of the National Cycle Network which is not on public roads or bridleways, are permissive routes and the landowners would be entitled to exclude ebikes regardless of what the general law might allow. I think many landowners would probably do this if they were deregulated.
Apart from wishing to go faster, I am still struggling to understand what activity is currently impossible because both ebikes and faster mopeds/bikes/cars are not suitable.
Post edited at 14:34
In reply to cap'nChino:: e bikes are selling very well in Norway - I know lots of people who sown them and my lbs loves them. They are limited to 25kmh, approx the same as the UK, as beyond that speed the consequences of crashing get too much. They normally use bike lanes shared with pedestrians and other cyclists. They are not set up with brakes suitable for say 40kmh without extreme care, and remember there is no test, no license.
For sure you can get a normal bike to spin along at 20kmh plus but it requires effort and a degree of focus. No cruising along watching the clouds.
FWIW , and according to a news line I support this week , 80% of crashes requiring an ambulance the rider is a casualty who simply overestimated the handling.
Basically you are suggesting unlicensed mopeds, on the road, up to 30mph with no training or license.
For sure you can get a normal bike to spin along at 20kmh plus but it requires effort and a degree of focus. No cruising along watching the clouds.
FWIW , and according to a news line I support this week , 80% of crashes requiring an ambulance the rider is a casualty who simply overestimated the handling.
Basically you are suggesting unlicensed mopeds, on the road, up to 30mph with no training or license.
In reply to wbo:
diy kits aren't limited? and cheap (eg 1000W/48 wheel on amz for£150). i could spin along at 50 like the pros- who's gonna know?
diy kits aren't limited? and cheap (eg 1000W/48 wheel on amz for£150). i could spin along at 50 like the pros- who's gonna know?
Post edited at 12:54
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