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Stupid question: how to find off-road cycle paths

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 elliot.baker 01 Feb 2021

tl;dr: where is a map showing clearly where I can mountain bike off-road?

I've been mountain biking the same route around Belper for about my whole life, I just bought a 1:25000 OS map centred on my house (which is awesome) to cross off routes I've ran on, and I thought "oh, I'll be able to see where else there are cool places to ride off road now as well". 

How wrong was I. Of the main places I cycle:

1) is a bridle way and national trail - so I'm allowed to cycle there but on the map it's the green diamonds on top of the bridle path long dotted line, although the national route stretches across the whole map most of it is footpath only so you can't follow it.

2) other bridle paths seem to just start at a road and end in the middle of nowhere or at a farm or something so not like you can make a route from them.

3) the canal path I cycle along is a concessionary footpath so on the map it's just a footpath, you wouldn't know you could cycle it unless you had seen the signs in person.

4) the other nice down hill bit I always cycle on is a national trail and an "other road, drive or track" so two black lines with white in the middle, most of these type of roads look tracks to farms and from what I gather they necessarily public rights of way (or cycle routes)

All I want is a map showing big bright lines of exactly where I can cycle... does it exist???

Thanks all

 jack89 01 Feb 2021
 Dave Todd 01 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

While you can just busk it from an OS map, just because it's legally rideable doesn't actually mean it's possible/pleasant.

A guide book saves a lot of trial and error when you're getting started;

https://www.v-publishing.co.uk/books/mountain-biking/

 Swig 01 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

Yep. Takes some staring to spot the difference between a bridleway and a path and you've got parish boundaries and stuff you don't care about at the time. 

There are sustrans maps, like https://shop.sustrans.org.uk/maps-and-guidebooks

There are local MTB maps like this sort of thing - https://www.bikemaps.co.uk/peak-district-mtb/goyt-valley-mountain-biking.ht...

 TobyA 01 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

National trails aren't necessarily bridleways, so just because its a national trail doesn't mean you can cycle on it. For example the Pennine Way is mainly not bridleway so there is no ROW for bikes on lots of it - the Pennine Bridleway was designed for bike and horse for this exact reason.

I've never been to Belper, but it can't be very far from lots of the routes in the Vertebrae Publishing White Peak book - which has some good ideas for the southern end of the Peak. They also have all the rides in the book as downloadable GPS files on their website, but be nice and support a small specialist publisher and buy the book too! You may find some you can ride from home. 

Truth is there aren't endless places where you do have a ROW for riding off road. Pretty much you are reliant on bridleways and byways, as you can see on an OS map, plus discretionary paths which you might not necessarily hear about - which is why a guidebook or being part of a local MTB facebook group or similar is useful for. Join Peak District MTB on Facebook and ask there, I'm sure there will be locals to you who could make suggestions.  

OP elliot.baker 01 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

This is interesting ... Belper, however rural it seems compared to cities appears to be in a black hole of recorded cycle paths. There is nothing on the open cycle map here, even the routes I know you are ok to ride, there is nothing on the sustrans one either.

Looks like there are a couple of nearby routes in the route books though which I might look into thanks!

Maybe I need to publish my own Belper Bike Routes book!

😁

Post edited at 15:02
 TobyA 01 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

I've looked on a map now, you're not very far from Wirksworth/Cromford etc. I've done rides arounds there using the White Peak book.

https://www.bikemaps.co.uk/peak-district-mtb/white-peak-district-mountain-b...

https://www.v-publishing.co.uk/books/mountain-biking/white-peak-mountain-bi...

 cousin nick 01 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

They won't inform you of legality or otherwise, but doing a segment search on Strava will show you where other people ride. I believe Komoot and other similar apps will also show regularly used routes.

N

In reply to elliot.baker:

I use this: www.trailforks.com

Al

Roadrunner6 01 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

Trailforks, as suggested, or strava route builder with the heat maps switch on and search with the routing preference set to biking. It doesn't mean it's legal but typically if enough people have ridden there it is legal and suitable for riding. The intensity of the line shows how popular it is.

Post edited at 16:30
1
 deepsoup 01 Feb 2021
In reply to cousin nick:

> They won't inform you of legality or otherwise, but doing a segment search on Strava will show you where other people ride.

Another approach via Strava is their heatmap.  (You need to be registered & logged in to zoom in past a certain amount of detail I think, but registration is free.)

It takes a bit of getting used to, and playing around with the settings, before you can make sense of it and needs to be used in conjunction with the OS and/or OSM map but can be a very handy source of information.

 Marek 01 Feb 2021
In reply to jack89:

In my experience OSM (and Komoot) are both pretty poor at identifying where you can cycle off-road. All too often they suggest going down paths which are neither legal nor entertaining.

So from a legal perspective you really need to start with an OS map or even better the council definitive maps (often available online). If it's a bridleway or a restricted byway (clear on the map) then you are good to go (legally). Unfortunately a lot of concessionary bridleways won't appear on the OS map - for that you need local knowledge (books, groups...). The other aspect that's vague is when does a untarmaced but public highway (good) become a private track (possibly bad). It's hard to tell from a map (or even on the ground). I've also found examples in definitive maps (where it says something like 'local restriction apply', but you try finding out what those are!

From a practical perspective there are two issues: Is a legal route actually any good for cycling? I've been down bridleways where I've wished for a machete and a ladder. Secondly, if it's not a legal RoW is it 'reasonable' to cycle down it (obviously a very personal issue). There are forests I know of where the landowner is obviously pretty tolerant of 'off-piste' cycling without expressly giving permission. Strava heatmaps may help you identify these, but it will also show plenty where the landowner is not so tolerant and probably should be avoided. The heatmaps also don't show what sort for terrain awaits you. Again, I know local forest routes that really shouldn't be done without full-face helmets, body armour and a a friend to call the ambulance. You don't want to find these routes 'accidentally' (if you'll pardon the pun).

The bottom line is that you should start with the OS or definitive maps (and understand what they mean) and then start doing some research. One resource I find really useful (particularly in Scotland is geograph.org. It's basically a massive database of really boring but informative photographs showing what the terrain looks like just about over the whole of the UK. Sadly the UI is err.. poor. But usable and really valuable.

*** Derbyshire definitive maps are here: https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/council/partnerships/derbyshire-mapping-porta...

Post edited at 20:09
 Philip 01 Feb 2021
In reply to Marek:

> In my experience OSM (and Komoot) are both pretty poor at identifying where you can cycle off-road. All too often they suggest going down paths which are neither legal nor entertaining.

I've subscribed to OSM for a couple of years but noticed a routing feature (Komoot I agree). Am I missing something (I only use tablet or phone app for OSM) - I can plot my route and view others but I haven't seen a way to get it to give me a route from A to B.

 Marek 01 Feb 2021
In reply to Philip:

> I've subscribed to OSM for a couple of years but noticed a routing feature (Komoot I agree). Am I missing something (I only use tablet or phone app for OSM) - I can plot my route and view others but I haven't seen a way to get it to give me a route from A to B.

Sorry, haven't seen the routing feature. I tend to plot my own researched routes (off-road) or use Komoot (road). I'd expect it to use one of the open-source routers like BRouter - perhaps you need to install that on your phone/tablet?

 Philip 01 Feb 2021
In reply to Marek:

> Sorry, haven't seen the routing feature. I tend to plot my own researched routes (off-road) or use Komoot (road). I'd expect it to use one of the open-source routers like BRouter - perhaps you need to install that on your phone/tablet?

I only asked as you criticised OSM as routing down unsuitable roads, I assumed I'd missed a feature. I currently use OSM manually or plot in Komoot and load into OSM to view on OS map.

J1234 01 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

Viewranger shows 5 MTB routes


 

 Marek 01 Feb 2021
In reply to Philip:

> I only asked as you criticised OSM as routing down unsuitable roads, I assumed I'd missed a feature. I currently use OSM manually or plot in Komoot and load into OSM to view on OS map.

Ah OK - misunderstanding. What I meant was that the cycling legality information in OSM can be ambiguous, misleading or just plain wrong, so whatever method you use to create routes (DIY, BRouter ...) you are going to encounter problems. Hardly surprising - it is after all a 'community' derived database (the "wikipedia of mapping"), so it's only as good as the input it gets.

 apwebber 02 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

It's interesting to keep in mind that cycling on a footpath is not illegal. It might be trespassing though, and is a civil matter between you and the owner. As a trespass the owner would have a right to ask you to leave their land and recover damages from you... if you damaged anything.

2
 JamieSparkes Global Crag Moderator 02 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

I found that on my OS maps with the waterproof cover, using a sharpie to highlight the good paths/bridleways made it a lot easier to spot potential loops. 

If youbstart with the legally permissible ones, you'll generally find someone has figured out a way between those odd end points  

Adding arrows for recommended direction helped a lot too  

 Bobling 02 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

Interesting thread, lots of ideas thanks.

Yesterday I was out on the daily lockdown shuffle with the kids and dived down an alleyway to see where it went (keeps things a little more interesting than doing the same old route).  It had a big round cycle sign which I thought was encouraging.  It went 10 metres down the back of some garages and gardens and then abruptly halted in a dog turd and a locked gate.  My point is that sometimes the headlines can be misleading!

 Reach>Talent 02 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

Your local council should have the information,

This is Wiltshire's paths

https://wiltscouncil.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=43d5a8...

 thepodge 02 Feb 2021
In reply to apwebber:

> It's interesting to keep in mind that cycling on a footpath is not illegal. It might be trespassing though, and is a civil matter between you and the owner. As a trespass the owner would have a right to ask you to leave their land and recover damages from you... if you damaged anything.

This is a very interesting point that a lot of people miss, just because you don't have the legal right doesn't mean it's illegal plus it's a civil law not a criminal law by default... Some places might have bylaws but most don't. 

I'll generally ride anywhere that I feel is suitable, a footpath that is wide and well surfaced is preferable to a bridleway that is narrow and muddy.

3
 GrahamD 02 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

I feel your pain.  It does seem like putting together a jigsaw without all the pieces !

A (free) resource I really like for ideas is Trailforks/routefinder.  Its not comprehensive coverage but where there is coverage, it gives some good alternatives.

 yorkshire_lad2 02 Feb 2021
In reply to apwebber:

> It's interesting to keep in mind that cycling on a footpath is not illegal. It might be trespassing though, and is a civil matter between you and the owner.

IANAL, but it may seem to be the case in some situations that _it is illegal_ to cycle on a footpath.  Google for civil law and criminal law but e.g. https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/criminal-defence-solicitors/criminal-vs-civi... ; It may be civil law that applies not criminal law but still law i.e. illegal (contrary the law).

 artif 02 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

My first response would be to look at the map and go explore, but then I looked at Bing OS maps for your area. My suggestion is move somewhere else : )

 thepodge 02 Feb 2021
In reply to yorkshire_lad2:

I wouldn't 100% agree with that, basically no one has said that bikes are not allowed, they have just said that feet are, that does not make bikes illegal. 

Regardless of all the internet law experts on both sides, as far as I know, no one has ever been taken to court for riding a footpath. 

2
 GrahamD 02 Feb 2021
In reply to thepodge:

> Regardless of all the internet law experts on both sides, as far as I know, no one has ever been taken to court for riding a footpath. 

Hopefully riding with common sense and courtesy will keep it this way.

 Marek 02 Feb 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> Hopefully riding with common sense and courtesy will keep it this way.

Courtesy always, but common sense is a bit of a misnomer in this context. Specifically, when it comes down to 'is it reasonable for me to ride down this footpath' (or indeed off-path) you really need to consider quite a few issues: Is there a history of cycling tolerance here? Is it likely to be busy with walkers (might be OK at some times, but madness on a sunny Sunday)? What are the ground condition like (many possible routes are fine if dry/frozen, but a really bad idea in the wet)? The challenge is that making these assessment is quite hard if it's an area you don't know quite well. Common sense to you and me perhaps, but not so common in general it seems (from my experience).

 thepodge 02 Feb 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> Hopefully riding with common sense and courtesy will keep it this way.

No need for the riding bit... Everyone needs to be responsible, the only people I've ever had have issue with me riding footpaths are those that already had a chip on their shoulder... "You almost ran over my (out of control) dog" "we've seen you coming over the hill for the last 5 minutes but will still walk 2 abreast giving you no room" or the classic "the ringing of your bell / request to get by has interrupted my chat and I'll express my anger by letting you pass but then when you're almost out of earshot, make a snide comment". 

2
 deepsoup 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Marek:

That's looks interesting, I hadn't seen it before.  Thanks for the link.

 deepsoup 02 Feb 2021
In reply to thepodge:

> No need for the riding bit...

Sometimes there's no need for anyone to be riding to see those sorts of behaviours, I've seen similar occasionally from my fellow pedestrians whilst running.  (In descent mainly, it's pretty much the only time I'm fast enough to overtake a tortoise.)  Some people are just a bit weird, and not only ramblers.

 spenser 02 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

There are a couple of guidebooks which cover riding around Derby:

https://www.bikemaps.co.uk/peak-district-mtb/DerbyshireandthePeakDistrict.h...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mountain-Bike-Guide-District-Derbyshire/dp/0948153...

The former has a ride described as Derby North which takes you around the edges of a few fields and has you climbing over stiles with the bike which are definitely a little bit naughty and not 100% fun.

There is a bridleway marked on the map from just East of the Bridge Inn heading toward the Bell and Harp in Little Eaton, it's a long series of steps which are unrideable on the way up and would be decidedly irresponsible to ride down.

There are some fun bridleways on Morley Moor which you can ride from Belper.

NCN Route 66 round Derby is enjoyable, albeit almost entirely tarmacced.

The Sustrans website only shows National Cycle Network stuff, it won't show general bridleways/ BOATs/ Byways/ Permissive Footpaths etc.

 Baz P 02 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

Unfortunately your not in a very good area for circular bridle routes, but then the whole of the Peak District is rubbish for circular routes.

The Cromford canal will get you up to Cromford and is perfect for kids. This also gets you onto the High Peak railway and routes around Carsington res. then it would be back lanes returning to Belper. There are loads of lanes to the east of you.

To get to joined up bridleway heaven you will have to go to the east of the M1. From there you can get to Nottingham or Leeds completely  off road with plenty of loops.

 GrahamD 02 Feb 2021
In reply to thepodge:

> No need for the riding bit... Everyone needs to be responsible

Except that we are specifically talking about riding on footpaths.  As riders doing this we (should) know that we need to be particularly circumspect. 

 deepsoup 02 Feb 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

> As riders doing this we (should) know that we need to be particularly circumspect. 

And friendly!  Be nice, say hi! 

I'm being semi-serious here - sometimes when you meet a stranger you get the encounter you're expecting.  People pick up on subtle signs, and if they haven't made their minds up yet which way to go I think they'll sometimes take the lead from your body language about whether to be friendly or not.

Optimists don't just see the best in people, they see people actually being better.
(Or so I'm told.  I'm a right miserable sod personally, so can't speak from first hand experience here.)

 Marek 02 Feb 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> And friendly!  Be nice, say hi! 

> I'm being semi-serious here - sometimes when you meet a stranger you get the encounter you're expecting.  People pick up on subtle signs, and if they haven't made their minds up yet which way to go I think they'll sometimes take the lead from your body language about whether to be friendly or not.

Agreed! If I'm cycling somewhere a bit 'cheeky', I'll always try to pull over and engage with any other (foot-bound) users I see: Say hi, complement them about their dog, their hat, their socks - anything! If you engage, they're far less likely to take umbrage at your existence and it gets them into good habits. OK, if there's too many then you'll never get anywhere, but then - by definition - you've pick the wrong path to be on. Engage:They far more likely to see you as another human - despite their preconceptions - rather than some weirdo. Even if you are.

 Graeme Hammond 02 Feb 2021
In reply to Baz P:

> Unfortunately your not in a very good area for circular bridle routes, but then the whole of the Peak District is rubbish for circular routes.

This pdf from the eastern moors shows some circular routes you can do using tracks that they have made permissive bridleways relatively recently that are not on the O/S maps

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ww...

 Baz P 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Graeme Hammond:

Yes I've ridden and walked all of these paths. It's a good pdf but it is really a small corner of the National Park. It's a pity they don't inform the OS a bit sooner though as there has been an update since these paths were made permissive bridleways. The Longshaw paths are on the latest OS25K but not Burbage/Froggatt/Curbar. That could be a good thing though depending upon your mode of transport. The Councils to the East of Sheffield seem a bit quicker with the updates.

 deepsoup 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Baz P:

https://www.visit-eastern-moors.org.uk/visit/explore-the-moor/bridleways/
(The same link without all the extra gubbins.)

> It's a good pdf but it is really a small corner of the National Park.

The new bridleway and the two trails down through Lady Cannings seem like a bit of a glaring omission though.  I know that isn't strictly on the Eastern Moors's 'turf', but neither is the last bit of the Houndkirk Road and they've included that.

 ChrisJD 03 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

Some of the trickier one to spot that you can ride on are adopted roads, that aren't tarmacked roads or might just look like unsurfaced double track .  Often marked with green dots on OS maps, but not always.

And Permissive Bridleways that are not marked on your OS mapping (fair few of those in the Peak now).

 Baz P 03 Feb 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

I think the two downhill routes are on the OS map as black dashes, which are just paths with no legal status. Not sure what they were before the routes were built but doubt if they could now be made footpaths. At least they would have to be one way.

 deepsoup 03 Feb 2021
In reply to Baz P:

> I think the two downhill routes are on the OS map as black dashes, which are just paths with no legal status. Not sure what they were before the routes were built but doubt if they could now be made footpaths. At least they would have to be one way.

I was thinking more of the Eastern Moors PDF than the OS map, they're an odd thing to miss off a map specifically aimed at mountain bikers that has Lady Cannings on it.

The bridleway through the plantation is on the latest OS, but is missing from that PDF.  (I can't remember if it was upgraded from a footpath or had no status before - the latter I think, it isn't very old at all.) 

I think you're right about 'Blue Steel' and 'Cooking on Gas' being black dashes on the latest OS, their status as footpaths or otherwise is moot because Lady Cannings is access land anyway so freely (and legally) accessible on foot throughout.  (Though obviously walking on those trails would be a fairly ludicrous thing to do.)

Edit to add:
Lady Cannings on the 1:10560 OS map in 1955.

Post edited at 15:08

 ChrisJD 03 Feb 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

The two Lady Cannings trails are fully sanctioned by the landowner, Sheffield City Council.  And built with crowdfunded money and local company support.

 deepsoup 03 Feb 2021
In reply to ChrisJD:

Indeed.  I chipped in a few quid myself. 

All I'm trying to say about them is that it's a bit odd that they (and the bridleway) don't appear on that pdf.

(from an earlier post)

> Some of the trickier one to spot that you can ride on are adopted roads, that aren't tarmacked roads or might just look like unsurfaced double track .  Often marked with green dots on OS maps, but not always.

The council map that Marek posted a link to up the thread a bit is helpful there - it has a layer you can turn on to highlight all the adopted highways.
https://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/council/partnerships/derbyshire-mapping-porta...

Edit to add:
Ooh.  That's interesting.  The OS map shows a footpath going North from Woodthorpe Hall (SK 31533 78787) towards Totley Brook that seems to abruptly become a bridleway as it crosses the border from Derbyshire into South Yorks.  The section that's a footpath on the OS comes up on the DCC map as an adopted highway.

Post edited at 17:14
 Baz P 04 Feb 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

I would guess that it was once a bridleway from New Totley south to Holmesfield Common.

My partner is putting in a lot of DMMO's around the Barnsley/Doncaster area and there are loads of these bridleways that suddenly become footpaths. The are mostly a result of PROW's crossing the old parish boundary's or County boundary's and the definitive maps being updated, or not, by the relevant officers. Footpath or bridleway, it doesn't seem to matter to some councils. That's why some councils update the OS regularly with new bridleways or permissive paths and some don't. I understand that the Sheffield Definitive Map is in a right old state and it's a pain in the backside to get to see it, unlike some where you can just look online.

Post edited at 14:37
 deepsoup 05 Feb 2021
In reply to Baz P:

Ah, yes, that would make sense. 

> I understand that the Sheffield Definitive Map is in a right old state and it's a pain in the backside to get to see it, unlike some where you can just look online.

I wondered about the Sheffield definitive map and tried for a bit to find it online.  Credit where credit is due though, they seem to be quite proactive on the ground.  (I haven't had any dealings with them personally, I've just been noticing new rights of way popping up on the ground over the last few years.)

 TobyA 05 Feb 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> Ooh.  That's interesting.  The OS map shows a footpath going North from Woodthorpe Hall (SK 31533 78787) towards Totley Brook that seems to abruptly become a bridleway as it crosses the border from Derbyshire into South Yorks. 

That's very local to me - I asked about it on the Peak District MTB facebook group back in the spring when I was riding every possible legal loop I could think of from home. https://www.facebook.com/groups/PeakDistrictMTB/permalink/2854518801251522/

There was quite a lot of discussion, lots of people seemed to remember it used to be signposted as BW although it isn't now. One of the local horse riding access activists has been trying to get it upgraded to BW again. Lots of people ride it on bike without issue and many say they have for decades. See:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/PeakDistrictMTB/permalink/2854518801251522/

 thepodge 05 Feb 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

Off tangent from the op but... I'm seeing a lot of paths and tracks being diverted with home made signs stating its because of "Covid" but it seems that its mainly people with big houses not wanting the unwashed walking past their house anymore. It would be handy to see if they have done this formally or not. 

 deepsoup 05 Feb 2021
In reply to TobyA:

Interesting.  Does its status as a DCC 'adopted highway' not imply a right of way for cycling/horse riding?  (I'm not sure.)

I don't know that path myself, my 'local' explorations have mostly been a bit further round to the South of the city.  The closest I've come is the top of the road having come up the 'Sheffield Country Walk' path from Gillfield Wood.  (I've occasionally parked at the bus turning circle to start a run from there for a change of scene.)  I've passed mountain bikers a few times on the path West of there in Gillfield Wood itself, maybe even you, and that seems like a good example of a footpath where considerate cycling is absolutely no problem at all.

 Sam Beaton 05 Feb 2021
In reply to thepodge:

There is DEFRA guidance in place at the moment to allow landowners and councils to put up signs with a polite request to avoid PROWS through working stable and farm yards and private gardens due to the pandemic see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-advice-on-accessing-green-...

 deepsoup 05 Feb 2021
In reply to thepodge:

> It would be handy to see if they have done this formally or not. 

I don't know but I think it would probably be safe to say they haven't, I doubt it would have been possible in the time available between the start of the pandemic and those signs popping up.  (If at all, I think it's quite a difficult thing to do formally.)

I haven't seen any of those signs myself, though I did see some slightly hysterical Covid-related "Dont touch the horses!" and such earlier in the year.  (They're mostly gone now.)

Are the diversions you've been seeing reasonable?  I know what you mean about the 'great unwashed', but personally I'd have no problem following the diversions anyway for now, as long as they're not too silly.  (And if the sign asks politely!)

 Marek 05 Feb 2021
In reply to Sam Beaton:

> There is DEFRA guidance in place at the moment to allow landowners and councils to put up signs with a polite request to avoid PROWS through working stable and farm yards and private gardens due to the pandemic see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-advice-on-accessing-green-...

As you say, they can *request* (".. encourage the public to use alternative routes...") that you go else where, but that's all it is. They certainly can't 'close' a PRoW without due (non trivial) process. Note that if they have gone the legal route, then part of the requirement is that the legal document allowing closure has to be posted at the access points and hence the legality (or lack of) will be obvious.

Interestingly, the covid guidance also says that they "...should clean gates and stiles... ". I wonder how often that ever happens? Or even practical?

Post edited at 12:03
 deepsoup 05 Feb 2021
In reply to Sam Beaton:

I think this bit has always been possible:

"offer an alternative route around gardens and farmyards where it’s safe to do so - you must gain permission from relevant landowners and make sure the route is safe for users and livestock, and you must maintain the original right of way"

I haven't been up there since the before-time and don't know if it's still there, but as far as I know there's a good example at Crookhill Farm above Ladybower Reservoir that's been there for many years.  The sign notes that the right of way passes directly through the farmyard and acknowledges the right of walkers to go that way, but politely asks people to use the path they've put in skirting around it instead.  I can't remember exactly what the sign says, but I do remember thinking they'd got the tone just right - none of that counterproductive snooty sense of entitlement that makes you want to turn your car around in people's driveways even if you don't need to.

Post edited at 12:14
 thepodge 05 Feb 2021
In reply to Marek:

There's actually one just up the hill from Gillfield Wood mentioned a few posts above, to be fair, it's a perfectly acceptable alternative.

The one at Our cow Molly takes people right through the middle of the farm then at the private house, diverts over a stile and into a swamp like field instead of hard packed track and a gate. It's an alternative but not brilliant. 

Then there's the one in Rivelin valley which goes through stables, the detour is walk along the road till you're so far away you end up walking somewhere else. 

In principle I've no problems if people put in suitable alternatives but where does this end up? To reclaim a footpath you need 20 years of evidence of use (sort of) so if I divert a path, 20 years later I submit to close it because no one has used it and then close the (unsanctioned) diversion suddenly there's no public access at all. It's playing a long game but I imagine a snazzy house in the country goes for more if you've expunged the general public. 

 thepodge 05 Feb 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

Funnily enough I've been told off twice going up and through Crookhill. Once for being in the way of a car coming down and once for following the obvious farm track and not the poorly signed bridleway across the field. 

 deepsoup 05 Feb 2021
In reply to thepodge:

That's disappointing.  Leaves a bad taste in the mouth doesn't it.
I've never met anyone on my way through there.

 Sam Beaton 06 Feb 2021
In reply to thepodge:

It's incredibly difficult to formally close a PROW. The landowner and council have to demonstrate that the path is not needed. Even if it's been hidden under brambles or been unofficially diverted or a gate across it has been locked for 20 years, if someone at the consultation stage of the closure order process says I want to use it and it's the only safe off road route between A and B then the closure order process will fail.

 thepodge 06 Feb 2021
In reply to Sam Beaton:

Reassuring to know thanks

Post edited at 10:25
 Justaname 06 Feb 2021
In reply to elliot.baker:

I used to be a real stickler for sticking to RoW, and being in Sheffield this was quite easy. Then went for a ride with some mates round Holmfirth which was mostly footpaths as there's hardly any bridleways and no one batted an eyelid, so I guess 'local rules'

Post edited at 20:46

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