UKC

Liquid chalk POF

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 oxocube 03 Oct 2020

Hi all, 

Probably been mentioned on here before, but as I only found out about this recently I thought it would be worth posting. 

A lot more people (very understandably) are using more liquid chalk due to the current situation, however, it might be worth being a little bit more careful which brands we use for outdoor climbing. 

Some liquid chalks contain Rosin (tree resin) i.e. POF. 

Most people will be aware but POF is a mix of chalk and rosin that is applied to holds by whacking them with a bag containing the mixture, the resin makes the hold stickier for the person climbing but then solidifies into a glass like layer. It is still popular among a lot of old school bleusards but massively frowned on everywhere else as it can ruin the holds on a climb. 

I'm a bit worried that the fact that some liquid chalks contain Rosin is not well known and that we might be inadvertently POFing the outdoor climbs of the UK. I have heard stories from a friend of a friend that cleaning the holds in his climbing wall has become a nightmare due to them being caked in resin and its easy to imagine how this could create a real issue outdoors. I had a despairing message from a friend yesterday that one of the holds on his long term project in Northumberland has suddenly turned to glass. 

Is this an issue that anyone else has noticed on any climbs? Wondering if this is something that needs to be highlighted more within the community before it causes noticible damage. It's worth emphasising that not all liquid chalks contain Rosin, and that the sentiment behind there use is very appropriate, particularly indoors, but it might be worth looking closely at the ingredients list before choosing a brand. 

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Removed User 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

I'd have thought a solvent would exist for the polymerised resin. Maybe there's a chemist on here who could suggest something.

 Alkis 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

Do you have any examples of brands to avoid? I quickly checked the bottles of the stuff I've got and they contain no resin, I would like to keep it that way.

 mik82 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

Also worth bearing in mind that rosin/colophony can cause a contact allergy in some people

Decathlon stuff has it in (listed as "colophonium")

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/climbing-chalk-liquid-strong-grip/_/R-p-14155...

 Jenny C 03 Oct 2020
In reply to Alkis:

The majority do contain resin. 

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OP oxocube 03 Oct 2020
In reply to Alkis:

Dry 5 has rosin on the ingredients list and I think that's probably one of the most popular brands due to the fact it's cheap.

 Alkis 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

Uh oh! I have used:

  • DMM Liquid Chalk
  • Secret Stuff
  • Mega Grip
  • Dry 5

The first two recently, so I checked and they have not got any Rosin in them. Mega Grip and Dry 5 was a long time ago so it goes to show that I should be actively checking.

Edit: This article lists ingredients for some of the brands:

https://www.climbernews.com/best-liquid-chalk-for-climbing/#

Liquid Gold contains Rosin and I have seen that around, although I have never used it.

Post edited at 11:16
 petegunn 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

KletterRetter also has resin in it.

The Ocun stuff also has resin but it's from a small bush/shrub rather than pine.

Post edited at 11:33
In reply to oxocube:

It is a small amount, I doubt any effect will be seen out doors. There may be an issue indoors where the holds see greater use but here the holds are replaceable. 

Use of a solvent to clean holds outdoors will likely do more harm than good. It will interfere with the chemistry of the rocks surface, killing algae and lichens, discolouring the rock further. 

There is usually a knee jerk reaction when rosin use is mentioned in the UK. It is not always justified. The horse has bolted but I suspect venues such as Bridestones may have benefitted from its use, the rosin may have helped maintain the stability of the pockets. 

5
 petegunn 03 Oct 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

I think that's why Font has stood up so well all these years. The pof protects the rock.

5
 slab_happy 03 Oct 2020
In reply to petegunn:

> KletterRetter also has resin in it.

The KletterRetter SEVENTY doesn't seem to:

https://rockrun.com/products/kletterretter-seventy-liquid-chalk-200ml

I switched to that for outoor use (versus Dry 5 for indoors) specifically because of the rosin issue.

In reply to oxocube:

Thanks for raising this as I’m allergic to tree resin. I was wondered why my hands were itching like mad this morning, I bought and used some Rock Technologies Dry 5 liquid chalk at the wall yesterday and I’ve just checked and yes it does contain rosin.

 ianstevens 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

Which problem in Northumberland? The whole county feels like it’s had increased traffic this year, and whilst bad (I.e. lack of) brushing and overchalked holds seem pretty prevalent. It was also pretty bad conditions last weekend, lots of holds feeling a bit glassier with less friction than usual until the sun really got on them in the afternoons.

OP oxocube 03 Oct 2020
In reply to ianstevens:

Desparado, although to be fair it's apparently just in two of the holds and my friend is wondering whether someone has put something on it to try to stabalise it or something, so very probably not related to the liquid chalk thing. 

cp123 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

That makes sense - I noticed last time I was at the bouldering wall the holds were covered in a yellow like hard substance - I (wrongly) assumed it was skin but pof makes a lot more sense.

It clogged up all the small pores that made up the textured grip, the holds felt very smooth. I wonder if it will wash off when the holds get their 6 week clean.

Definitely a step in the wrong direction.

OP oxocube 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

Turns out actually someone has used a load of superglue on Desparado to try to stabilise the holds, so I jumped to the wrong conclusion on that one. Apparently much less friction now and the moves are a lot harder. 

Post edited at 14:21
In reply to cp123:

No that is people using all kinds of liquid chalk and not waiting for it to dry before pulling on. I have heard reports of it particularly occuring at walls that are saying liquid chalk is mandatory.

 steveriley 03 Oct 2020
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

That tallies with what I’m seeing indoors locally - quick rub of (compulsory) liquid chalk and start climbing. Some of the holds are starting to feel quite smeggy. Guess it needs body heat to dry properly so not drying on the holds properly. Mind you the air is cleaner, so that’s a bonus.

We’re all probably using too much anyway. Being an old git it takes ages to warm up and I only need to start chalking half an hour in on smaller holds and slopers. Clean hand gang reborn

 Frank R. 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

Nice to learn something new, thanks.

Couldn't you mix your own? Especially for people with allergies to resin, just very fine chalk and IPA? I guess the particle size would matter the most for it to mix well. Still got plenty of 99% IPA here from making hand sanitiser, I'll have to give it a try. Of course that does presume normal chalk is only pure Magnesium Carbonate in the first place.

 andy w bloc 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

Pof is just resin, no chalk involved. 

 Reach>Talent 03 Oct 2020
In reply to Frank R.:

A simple slurry of Magnesium Carbonate in isopropyl alcohol will sediment out pretty quickly; the finer the powder the slower the settlement. There is a bit of a case of diminishing returns as you grind it finer because it'll start to stick together though (grinding it as a slurry will let you get it finer than dry grinding). To reduce the speed it settles out the best method is to thicken the suspension, plus as everyone knows 'thicker stuff is more effective'*.

I'm not sure what the best way to thicken it would be without adding something nasty or likely to impact the effectiveness of the chalk. I've used colloidal silica to thicken suspensions in the past but it isn't nice stuff to work with and really dries your skin out, I believe that there used to be some added to Metolius loose chalk under the guise of the 'secret drying agent' but I don't know if that is still the case.

* Not actually true but don't tell the marketing department.

In reply to steveriley:

>  Clean hand gang reborn

There is a study that shows that chalk kills the coronavirus's. It's not been peer reviewed and not tested On COVID-19 but it is promising.

So the CHG might be reborn but you might be short lived

2
In reply to Reach>Talent:

I have made my own liquid chalk by mixing chalk and hand sanitiser. Best to run the chalk through a blender first to grind it to a fine powder.

Shake the mix in a squeezey bottle. The starch which provides the viscosity to the sanitiser holds the chalk in suspension well. 

It doesn't dry as quickly as commercial chalk but performs equally well. Overtime the alcohol evaporates leaving the mix more water rich with a subsequent longer drying time. 

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

It is wrong to quote that study, the sample size is far too small, the analogue may be inappropriate and there is a lack of peer review. 

The study is little more than industry sponsored wishful thinking. There is a danger it could lead to false confidence in some of the preventative measures being adopted. 

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 ianstevens 03 Oct 2020
In reply to oxocube:

Makes sense - good to hear it’s not a POF thing (intentional or otherwise)

cp123 03 Oct 2020
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Well, something is causing a yellow resin like thing that's clogging up the pores. If its not the rosen in the liquid chalk, what else is it except skin?

 steveriley 03 Oct 2020
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

It’s a fairly light study but encouraging all the same. I’ll take any crumb of comfort in these crazy times, still think we all overuse the stuff tho

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