UKC

/ Thirlmere Zip Wire UPDATE

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old skool on 04 Dec 2017
A Planning Application has now been submitted by TreeTop Trek for the ‘Thirlmere Activity Hub’ to include multiple zip wires across Thirlmere with the lines stretching from one side of the lake to the other.

I urge you to write to the planning authority with your concerns. Deadline for submissions is 2nd January 2018.

This link has more information:

https://www.friendsofthelakedistrict.org.uk/Pages/Site/thirlmere/Category/our-assessment

If you don't have time to write, there is also an online petition here:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/say-no-to-zip-wires-across-thirlmere?bucket&source=facebo...

Thanks for your support.
1
Dell on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

They should've allowed the Honister zip wire to go ahead, which would've nipped this in the bud.
1
Michael Hood - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool: was there today and seen the notices on posts etc.

Question, where exactly across the lake are they planning to go from and to?
old skool on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Michael Hood:

All the info you need is in the links I posted.
old skool on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

And if you're interested in a bit of lively debate, check out the Zip Off FB page:

https://www.facebook.com/zipoffThirlmere/
CasWebb - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to Michael Hood:

8 lines in total, 4 each way from the area near Swirls car park
wercat on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to CasWebb:

How's that going to fit with all of the NATO jets, Chinooks and C130s etc that fly very low through that area?

Don't stop the aircraft - it's great to see them, including the Red Arrows on occasion.
2
CasWebb - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to wercat:
They discussed the plans with the MOD and adjusted the wire heights slightly so MOD are not objecting.
The details are in a letter included in the planning application.
Post edited at 20:21
1
Dave 88 - on 04 Dec 2017
In reply to CasWebb:
Fortunately there have never been any problems with steel wire rope and low flying military aircraft before!
Post edited at 23:31
Jim 1003 - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

Most locals support it, apart from the old farts in Eden Valley climbing club.
37
Darren Jackson - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Jim 1003:

> Most locals support it, apart from the old farts in Eden Valley climbing club.

No they don't: I spoke to eight blokes in The Golden Rule, over the weekend, and only one of them thought that it was a good idea. And he was out of his head on pints of Trooper, and pickled eggs.

... And before you shout me down, my survey is as statistically valid as 'yours' is.
2
CasWebb - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Jim 1003:

The parish council, ie the locals, are against it. Who are this most that you talk of?
CEW on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Jim 1003:
Most locals support it?! You must know different locals to me!!
wercat on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Dave 88:
There have with helicopters - hence the great big coloured markers on cables you see in the alps. Helicopters hitting cables is a very very common accident, historically
Post edited at 09:03
2
Dave 88 - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to wercat:

I was being sarcastic
lucozade - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

Don't think the Honister being given the go-ahead would have stopped this. If one opens, others usually follow. Honister done sensitively as possible would be a good place for a wire though. There are other zip wires in and around the Lakes. This is short-termism and simply about profit, throwing in a few things to try to appease.

Not sure about all the locals supporting it (unless this was irony?) Haven't met any locals who care who are for it (Keswick and Penrith), except one guy who changed his mind when he realised quite what it would mean. My surveying isn't necessarily highly accurate or wide I realise.

The other thing that's disturbing is the way that Treetop Treks have gone about things. I actually wouldn't want them doing anything in the Lakes due to their underhand tactics.
shantaram - on 05 Dec 2017
In reply to Jim 1003:

Interested to know where you get this info from. I live locally and many more people seem to be against than for, but maybe I just surround myself with like-minded people.
graeme jackson - on 06 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

man made activity over a man made lake. meh!
2
CragRat11 - on 06 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

I was pretty pissed off with the campaign that scuppered the zip wire idea at Honister (which Friends of the Lake District had a hand in).

The people who stop a leisure and tourism resource being added to a hillside that has been totally destroyed by mining and is already covered in bent metal and cables but still fights for the outdated, destructive farming practices and archaic land management that destroys our landscapes. Hypocrites! They'll happily freeze us in time with all the chocolate box boll*cks, sheep and holiday cottages. We need people with progressive ideas.

HOWEVER........all that aside.
It would be a real shame to put a zip wire attraction in Thirlemere because even though it has a big fat road running through it and a man made reservoir it has a very wild feel nowadays. It is a beautiful part of the lakes that I think would be spoiled by that. Honistor mine is very very different.
1
Dave 88 - on 06 Dec 2017
In reply to graeme jackson:

I don't think Machu Picchu would be much improved by a zip-wire, despite being man made!
summo on 06 Dec 2017
In reply to Dave 88:

> I don't think Machu Picchu would be much improved by a zip-wire, despite being man made!

There is a difference between a globally known historical moment and a water reservoir though, that half the lakes visitors probably think is natural.

Climbers like everyone else when it suits them are hypocrites. We have no problem driving up to the cairngorm car park, or using a cable car in the alps etc.. but because somebody wants to build something most of us won't use, it's labelled as some environmental disaster, destroy ing the ever so natural habitat.
14
Dave 88 - on 06 Dec 2017
In reply to summo:
Obviously I was taking it to the extreme to prove a point, but it doesn't escape the fact that it's wrong to say something is not worth preserving simply because it is man made.

With reference to ski lifts etc, that logic is like saying "well you used that bolted crag over there, so we should be able to bolt any crag". It's about where things fit in. I've got no problem with Honnister via ferrata for example, think it's a great idea. No problem with wind turbines, but it's probably not great to put one on top of great gable. You know what I mean?
Post edited at 19:39
CasWebb - on 06 Dec 2017
In reply to CragRat11:

Unfortunately the Honister application had quite a few flaws and would have had an adverse impact on the area as described in the application. Had the proposer been more amenable to correcting the issues raised he could easily have got something in place. Instead he ignored all advice and tried to bully his way through which upset a lot of people.
Simon Caldwell - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to summo:

> a water reservoir though, that half the lakes visitors probably think is natural.

thus neatly countering the "it's man made anyway" argument.

> We have no problem driving up to the cairngorm car park

True, but if it weren't there already then most of us would be campaigning against building one

old skool on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to graeme jackson:

The two original lakes in the valley were subsumed into Thirlmere Reservoir when the dam was completed in 1894. It's man made, yes, but the lake has been a feature of the valley for a very long time, even in its present form.
Haweswater, Ennerdale, Hayeswater and Kentmere are also reservoirs. Would you like to see zip wires strung across these lakes, too?
Ramblin dave - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

My bathroom's "man made", and I wouldn't want a zip wire running through there! It's not about how the landscape came to be in its current form, it's about what people value in it as it is.
mrphilipoldham - on 07 Dec 2017
In reply to graeme jackson:

A lake built atop two original lakes, and for the direct benefit of hundreds of thousands/millions of people. Against an expensive luxury built 'for the few'.
Jim 1003 - on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to CragRat11:

How the f*ck does Thirlmere have a very wild feel, what a load of UKC absolute bollocks. People need jobs in the area, not a very wild feel.
28
Dave 88 - on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to Jim 1003:

Wild in the sense that there are some trees and bio-diversity which is sorely lacking in much of the managed upland areas of the Lakes.

This will bring a handful of low paying, relatively unskilled jobs to an area that already has plenty of those. I agree more jobs are needed in this area, but I don't think this is going to make any difference.
GrahamD - on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to Jim 1003:

> How the f*ck does Thirlmere have a very wild feel, what a load of UKC absolute bollocks. People need jobs in the area, not a very wild feel.

The bars that are full because people living in cities come and visit because, to them, Thirlmere and the Lakes is wild. If they wanted a theme park they could have stopped at Alton Towers or Blackpool on their way there.

And its not like the locals are queuing up to staff all the bars in the area, is it ? Seems to me the area is staffed by eastern Europeans. Manning a zip wire will bring a handful of similar jobs with the added bonus of it being outside in the cold.
wercat on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to GrahamD:
8 zip wires ...

parking for users, those leaving and arriving, snacking facilities etc etc etc. We could add a factory outlet shop or two to make it more viable. After all, Rheged sneaked through as a vistor centre to interpret the landscape and then claimed it couldn't survive without a great increase in shopping facilities.
Post edited at 08:55
Robert Durran - on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to summo:

> Climbers like everyone else when it suits them are hypocrites. We have no problem driving up to the cairngorm car park, or using a cable car in the alps etc..

It is perfectly possible to do these things while wishing they didn't exist and opposing similar developments. I don't actually see a problem in that.
1
lucozade - on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

Few points from my limited perspective. First, the lake is man-made but the lake area was and is managed to blend into the natural environment. Eight noisy zip wires is not blending into the natural environment that National Parks are there to preserve and uphold. Much of the Lakes is 'man made' (sheep grazing to create the environment etc) but this is again done to create the 'natural environment' that people see as being 'wild'. Zip wires in other places have turned natural areas into almost theme parks - very expensive, short-term and unlikely to inspire people to love the natural environment but simply the momentary 'thrill'. This isn't sustainable development to me at least. In terms of things like cable cars, their purpose is to bring people into the natural environment (yes, that at times is also 'man-made' e.g. snow guns etc). But the zip wire is the end of their purpose - they exist simply to make profit and not for natural improvement. The added cycle tracks etc are just bluster and fluff to get the zip wires approved in my view. And in terms of jobs, Dave and Graham are spot on. If it were not for the hard work of mainly 'eastern Europeans' (sorry to be so generic) and others, the Lake District jobs wouldn't be filled to the level they are now (and there are still very many vacancies not filled due to necessary low wages and high living costs). The Lakes / Cumbria needs jobs, yes, but needs skilled jobs more than seasonal, minimum wage zip wire jobs over a lake. And I'm not against zip wires. I agree that Honister would have been a far better place. But allowing zip wires over a lake would set a National Park precedent that would further 'un-wild' areas that are so desperately needed for people in a busy and mad world and the reason the Lakes got UNESCO status! This isn't about people stopping other's enjoyment either. There are plenty of places you can do a zip wire. Not all progress is 'progressive'... And I have no agenda here or have anything to do with any interest groups. Everyone is entitled to their own (respectful) opinions - as someone recently said.. we need to learn how to disagree well with one another.
birdie num num - on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

I think Mrs Num Num will have to zoom across in a harness suspended between two of the wires
GrahamD - on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to wercat:

How much employment is that ? I mean I can't remember the last car park I used which actually employed anyone. And shopping - so anyone driving there basically has to get through Windermere, Ambleside and Grasmere or Keswick to get to shops ??
Simon Caldwell - on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to wercat:

> parking for users, those leaving and arriving, snacking facilities etc etc etc. We could add a factory outlet shop or two to make it more viable. After all, Rheged sneaked through as a vistor centre to interpret the landscape and then claimed it couldn't survive without a great increase in shopping facilities.

If increasing employment is the only criterion then the zipwire should go ahead. In fact why not concrete over the whole place and build a theme park and hotel complex.

Or they could leave it alone as being one of our few remaining relatively unspoiled places, and build their zipwires, theme parks, and hotels somewhere else. Maybe somewhere on the edge of the Lakes, right by a dual carriageway - Rheged say.
dixmarra - on 12 Dec 2017
In reply to Jim 1003:

0 hour contract
National Minimum Wage rate
bad weather go home?
4.51.3 Environmental quality contributes to quality of life – for both residents
and visitors – and to economic prosperity. The National Park is an area
where tourism is the dominant industry, visitor spend over £600 million a
year, and surveys consistently show that the majority of people visit
because of the scenery, and peace and tranquillity to be found here.
CragRat11 - on 13 Dec 2017
In reply to Jim 1003:
> How the f*ck does Thirlmere have a very wild feel, what a load of UKC absolute bollocks. People need jobs in the area, not a very wild feel.

Can you name me some more wild places in the Lakes then? Ones that aren't scoured by sheep and full of pilons?
I can't and I've lived here all my life.

Thirlmere has trees, many of them. Not horrible plantation forests. Proper old trees. The only other place I can think that resembles some of the slopes on the west side of Thirlmere is Ennerdale.

Hopefully you can enlighten me though on where the really wild places in the Lakes are?

Or perhaps we don't need f*ckin trees, we need jobs..........

You do know that the reason we have many of the f*ckin jobs is because of the f*ckin trees and stuff yeh?
Post edited at 16:14
keith-ratcliffe on 14 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:
A post has just appeared on another thread referring to the BMC position on the zip wires.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=674655
danm on 15 Dec 2017
Wiley Coyote2 - on 18 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

It's a bit tricky to get a handle on how many locals are in favour of the zip wire. Tree Top Treks say there is a lot of local support but they also say that Friends of the Lake District, who have always opposed zip wires in the Lakes actually encouraged the idea of Thirlmere as a site even tho the FLD deny it. After that it's hard not to be a bit wary of broad brush claims of support
lucozade - on 18 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:
I think the revelations from Terry Abraham today and his stepping down from the 'Lake District Foundation' (who according to Terry Abraham would receive money from Treetop Treks if the zip wires get planning approval) are quite telling in this matter and for me raise deeper (and darker) questions against a company who seem to be acting against the interests of the National Park and only in their own interest (which is sadly how business can work in all walks of life). Treetop Treks have misrepresented remarks made by someone from Friends of the Lake District, by taking remarks out of context and twisting them. Terry Abraham has acted with integrity - something I feel has been seriously lacking from others in this whole debacle! And again, I'm not against zip wires but to even suggest them at Thirlmere across a lake is pretty outrageous.
Post edited at 22:44
Jon Stewart - on 18 Dec 2017
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

> It's a bit tricky to get a handle on how many locals are in favour of the zip wire.

Whoever they are, they obviously have no idea how to tell people what a great idea it is, other than telling Jim 1003.
CasWebb - on 19 Dec 2017
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

As far as I remember the FLD rep at the time was talking about zip wires being located entirely within managed forest, such as was found at Thirlmere, and certainly not starting in one then crossing a lake to finish in another.
Andy Johnson - on 19 Dec 2017
In reply to lucozade:

> I think the revelations from Terry Abraham today and his stepping down from the 'Lake District Foundation'

More info at https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2017/12/18/thirlmere-zipwire-film-maker-terry-abraham-expands-on-r...
Wiley Coyote2 - on 19 Dec 2017
In reply to CasWebb:
That seems to be what happened but it does make me wonder that if the company mistook this for support from a long term opponent of zip wires how many other 'supporters' fall into the same category of what might be politely called wishful thinking
Jim 1003 - on 19 Dec 2017
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Your not a local...you're from down souf....
Darren Jackson - on 20 Dec 2017
In reply to old skool:

I've heard that Terry Wogan is the shadowy force behind all of this.

... Disgraceful, but it's what I've been told.
Christheclimber on 09 Jan 2018
In reply to old skool:
I think the consultation ends this Friday 12th January. If you don’t want this zip wire to go ahead then please write in protest or sign the petition:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/say-no-to-zip-wires-across-thirlmere?bucket&source=facebook-s...

https://www.friendsofthelakedistrict.org.uk/Pages/Site/thirlmere/Category/our-assessment

Article from the BMC:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-objects-to-proposed-zipwire-development-at-thirlmere
Post edited at 18:17
1
Simon Caldwell - on 10 Jan 2018
In reply to Christheclimber:

Correct. And worth noting that sending an email of objection carries FAR more weight than just signing the petition.

Send an email to thirlmereactivity@lakedistrict.gov.uk
You must quote the planning application number 7/2017/2298
You must include your name, full postal address and the date.
Mark Collins - on 10 Jan 2018
In reply to All:

There was a piece on PM - Radio 4 about it yesterday.

Simon Pelly - on 10 Jan 2018
In reply to old skool:
Signed and email sent.
Post edited at 12:17
1
Christheclimber on 10 Jan 2018
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Cheers, email sent.
1
Phil Scott - on 10 Jan 2018
In reply to old skool:

Looks like Honister have resubmitted their application yesterday.

Far more suitable location rather than the Thirlmere proposal.
3
didntcomelast on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to old skool: just watched an article on BBC Breakfast news which was so biased in favour of the zipwire it was almost a promotional video. Don’t hold much hope for those opposing the plans. 

 

tmawer - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to didntcomelast:

Yes...just seen this and it certainly didn't seem very balanced reporting to me. I suspect that the Highways health and safety concerns may mean that the application fails though.

lucozade - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to old skool:

Agree it wasn't the greatest report from the BBC. Lots of 'straw man' arguments from Treetop Treks like 'fun' and 'thrill' should be words we associate with the Lakes. They already are! And that we should get people out onto the 'fells'. But people wouldn't be out on the fells unless by that you mean being driven by 4x4s up a track to a jump off point. The two presenters didn't seem in favour of the zip wires mind you! It can't go ahead surely - even a cursory understanding of legislation means it has to be struck down. Disappointing that so many Lakeland organisations seem to be in favour, but I suspect there's more to that than meets the eye. As I've read, profit should never be solely assessed by money but by deeper things like values, beauty, time, meaning etc!

Post edited at 09:35
Andy Johnson - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to old skool:

Deadline for objections is 5pm today. Email thirlmereactivity@lakedistrict.gov.uk quoting reference 7/2017/2298. See https://www.friendsofthelakedistrict.org.uk/Pages/FAQs/Site/thirlmere/Category/write-to-the-planning-authority.

CasWebb - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to lucozade:

Not sure about why you think "so many Lakeland organisations seem to be in favour". Only 2 that I know of have said they are in favour and both have financial or personal interest in Treetop Treks. Others raised objections in one form or another including Friends of LD,  BMC, National Trust, all local parish councils, Keswick tourism board members roughly 70% opposed, etc. 

lucozade - on 12 Jan 2018
In reply to CasWebb:

Hi CasWebb, yes fair point I probably should've phrased myself better. I mean I'm disappointed that Cumbria Local Enterprise Partnership and Cumbria Tourism have supported this. I'm quite sure that United Utilities are fully behind the proposal as they'll receive a rent and sad that the Lake District Foundation chose neutrality (pretty clear why!) I fully recognise most have stood against this, especially the great work done by FLD, and other organisations like the BMC, Natural England, National Trust and many others who have opposed this, alongside the local councillors and residents etc. I've been as active as I can in raising my objections in a number of constructive ways

Post edited at 22:36
CasWebb - on 13 Jan 2018
In reply to lucozade:

They've received in the region of 2400 letters relating to the application, will be interesting to see what the for/against split was. If it goes through it will be a disgraceful decision given the level of opposition. I'm also interested to see the new Honister proposal that has just been submitted.


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