/ Another Brexit 'bonus' - 90 day max stay

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Toerag 14 Feb 2020

Long euro road trips will be more of a ballache - you'll only be able to stay in the EU for a maximum of 90 out of every 180 days without a visa:-

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/brexit-passport-visa-eu-european-union-etias-electronic-system-a9318016.html

...and the visa process is not standardised and can take a long time

https://www.nomadicmatt.com/travel-blogs/how-to-legally-stay-in-europe-for-more-than-90-days/

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In reply to Toerag:

Whilst I'm no fan of Brexit - this has to be high up the list of insignificant whinges.

The number of people who undertake "Long euro road trips" of over 89 days any more frequently than once every 5 years must be miniscule.

Plus the number of people who do such things - at the drop of a hat - who don't plan the whole thing sufficiently far in advance to be hampered by a lengthy application process is also slight

- I would suggest the people who do take such trips would thoroughly enjoy getting beyond Europe - the non-EU countries to the East have so much to offer.

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

And how exactly would they know how long you have been in the EU ?

Post edited at 12:09
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tom_in_edinburgh 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> And how exactly would they know how long you have been in the EU ?

Scan passports of non-citizens on the way in and the way out.  Match up the arrivals with departures and flag anyone with an arrival more than three months old and no matching departure.

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

It's not that simple though is it ?

I could take my van to Europe, get scanned in at the border, spend 30 days in Europe, end up in a non EU country over an unmanned or manned border with a non passport scan checkpoint then come back in 90 days later, i haven't been in Europe for 120 days have i ?

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trouserburp 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

And will the etias exclude anybody who has gone to a muslim country in the last 5 years- as per esta (or Trump's $hit list to be precise)

Hope nobody was planning to climb in Iran

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Ramon Marin 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Nempnett Thrubwell:

I can think of at least 20 of people I know who do 

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Ramon Marin 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

Like USA does, passport control

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Ramon Marin:

Totally unworkable without a manned border crossing at every crossing in and out of the EU, which is never going to happen.

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In reply to Nempnett Thrubwell:

> Whilst I'm no fan of Brexit - this has to be high up the list of insignificant whinges.

Wasn't Brexit supposed to make things better though? What have we actually gained from this reduction in our free movement rights?

The reverse situation is also true. My wife (Dutch national) and I will never be able to go on holiday for more than 90 days each year since she will lose her residency permit if we do that. Approaching retirement as we are, this is a fairly major curtailment of our travel rights. A luxury problem maybe but certainly one that will affect thousands of people and definitely not something that I would describe as 'better'.

Alan

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Ramon Marin 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

Like which one for example?

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Jim Lancs 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> Wasn't Brexit supposed to make things better though? . . .

I'm also approaching retirement and was looking forward to to joining other retired climbers spending long spells abroad.

Although Nempnett Thrubwell might not worry, there are hundreds of thousands of Brits (not just climbers) who have made use of their right to roam at will throughout Europe. Whether in a campervan or cheap apartment in the sun, they certainly feel their quality of life has been significantly enhanced by being able to come and go, for as long as they pleased. Ninety days in 180 is a huge degradation of ordinary people's righst to choose how they spend their lives.

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jimtitt 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

Clearly you have no idea how border enforcement works. The moment anyone checks you passport over the 90 days after you were logged as entering the EU you are an illegal immigrant.

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Ian W 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

I think he only meant insignificant whine in terms of climbers and trips>90 days.

The massive impact is on those who may wish to live in the EU, and travel to and from the UK regularly Myself and the current Mrs W would love to move to France  on retirement, but would regularly come back here. This is no problem whatsoever currently, but by the time I retire in a couple of years, will be significantly more difficult. I also have friends in the same situation as you with an EU born partner, and they too are struggling to see the benefits. From what i gather from those in favour of the restrictions, the benefits seem to centre around keeping out various foreigners, and preventing them stealing our jobs / benefits / hospital appointments / housing / school places (delete as applicable depending on the prejudice most current).

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In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

The loss of free movement is absolutely one of the biggest losses from Brexit,

My underlying point - which my clumsy response obviously didn't highlight - is that such articles / posts highlighting another are very much the sort which enabled the Brexiteers to whip up support.

I would argue that on the face of it the links and sentences added by the OP has the following inference

"Brexit means people cannot have a massive extended holiday in Europe."

Such "downside of Brexit" arguments is never going to convince large proportions of the nation who are only able to dream of a having simply more than a weeks holiday abroad.

There are far bigger  downsides to brexit than  - Long euro road trips being a ballache.

Why can your Dutch National Wife not apply for British Citizenship? 

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HansStuttgart 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> I could take my van to Europe, get scanned in at the border, spend 30 days in Europe, end up in a non EU country over an unmanned or manned border with a non passport scan checkpoint then come back in 90 days later, i haven't been in Europe for 120 days have i ?

I suggest you call a lawyer before you try to convince a frontex official that you are perfectly legal in the EU but just happen to use unchecked border crossings every once in a while....

Post edited at 17:14
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In reply to Nempnett Thrubwell:

> Why can your Dutch National Wife not apply for British Citizenship? 

She can do, but it is a massive pain in the butt, plus around £1.5k and she didn't need to before.

I take your point about it being a slightly luxury problem, which may not be appreciated by many who voted leave, but there is a vast long list of little things which are going to be less good - some luxury and some minor but a lot of major ones, especially where trade is concerned.

What is missing is a list of any benefit from leaving. 

Alan

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jimtitt 14 Feb 2020
In reply to HansStuttgart:

Or the Bundesgrenzschutzpolizei in Germany or possibly even more exciting the Bavarian ones or all the other countries border police. 

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BruceM 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James 

> What is missing is a list of any benefit from leaving. 

Apparently it puts the "Great" back into Britain,  according to many of the interviews with voters that I watched. 

I've spoken with quite a few British long-term campervan dwellers and the like over the last 3 years in Spain and France who knew nothing about the upcoming 90/180 rule. Many would ordinarily take 5 months or so at a time (retired). Occasionally I got great amusement upon discovering that some of these folk I was speaking with  most probably voted to leave the EU (based on some of their statements).

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PPP 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> She can do, but it is a massive pain in the butt, plus around £1.5k and she didn't need to before.

Also, not all countries allow dual citizenship. 

That's the case for me, Scotland has been my home for almost a decade now, but I would need to give up my citizenship (and hence EU citizenship) to get British one. Would it be worth it, for someone who's in late 20s, like myself? I don't know!

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wbo2 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> Totally unworkable without a manned border crossing at every crossing in and out of the EU, which is never going to happen.

In or out of Schengen isnt it really.?  Anyway the only bit that matters is at 90 days at the UKEU border. 

Taking back control  it's what you voted for 

Post edited at 19:39
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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to wbo2:

Well I didn’t vote for it, just trying to understand how the hell it would ever work.

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to HansStuttgart:

So, OK, hypothetically I drive to To France, spend 89 days in France then drive into Andorra or Switzerland (non EU members) via an unmanned border or a simple passport check to ensure you are not a member of ISIS, spend 89 days there and try to get back across the border from France to the U.K. what happens ?

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to jimtitt:

I’m pretty sure I have a decent handle on it, all I’m saying is the infrastructure and logistics simply isn’t there to manage this sort of thing at the moment and won’t be any time soon, it’s unmanageable in a land mass such as Europe to control and log movement of ALL citizens, EU residents or not.

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Oceanrower 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> So, OK, hypothetically I drive to To France, spend 89 days in France then drive into Andorra or Switzerland (non EU members) via an unmanned border or a simple passport check to ensure you are not a member of ISIS, spend 89 days there and try to get back across the border from France to the U.K. what happens ?

What happens next is you have a lot of explaining to do. Either via an interpreter (Not good) or in an unfamiliar language (Worse!)

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whispering nic 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

Which borders do you see as porous or unmanned?

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Oceanrower:

Why ? Surely the onus is on the people controlling the movement ? 
 

This is my point, it’s unmanageable, unworkable and unenforceable at this moment in time.

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Oceanrower 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

You may be right. But try arguing the point in a foreign country in a language you're not fluent in...

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to whispering nic:

I have been in and out of Switzerland via Vallorbe probably 20 times over the years, waved straight through on probably most of them.

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HansStuttgart 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

I don't know what happens.... I am not working for the law enforcement agencies.

But I don't think they'll be impressed if you tell them you went to Andorra/Russia/wherever and therefore everything should be OK. They'll just check the database and see an entry in the EU more than 90 days ago.

What they'll do? Take you into custody? Throw you out of the union? Mark your name in the database so that any following entry into the EU will be refused/comes with additional checks? Pass this info on to the US? As said, I don't know. Maybe they also just say, don't do this again and good day to you!

The general rule for a happy life is not to mess with law enforcement agencies. So just take the trouble to go through a manned border post for the second entry into the union so that the system is happy that you are there legally.

BTW, there is not only trouble with the border force upon leaving the union, you also have problems if e.g. you're involved in a car accident, police show up, they ask for identification, etc.

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HansStuttgart 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> I have been in and out of Switzerland via Vallorbe probably 20 times over the years, waved straight through on probably most of them.


because Switzerland is in Schengen. It counts as EU when it comes to migration.

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Mr Lopez 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

It is your responsibility to get your passport stamped with entry and exit dates. So putting aside that Switzerland is in the Schengen area and looking at Andorra, if you were to enter it you need to make sure they stamp your passport so that you got proof you exited Schengen, and then another one when you get back in for that to work. Were you not to do that the police or border control will look at your passport and calculate based on the latest stamp.

I know loads of commonwealth 'tourists' who are trying to trick the 90 days limit in Europe and they mostly get caught out and fined for overstaying. I doubt brits will be any more sucesful

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whispering nic 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

Switzerland is a Schengen area country.

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to HansStuttgart:

But this is my point, not all borders are manned or bothered about dealing with people crossing them, I can’t see how it’s manageable.

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HansStuttgart 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

Surely the onus is on the people controlling the movement ? 

No. This is the same as when someone from e.g. Africa ends up in the UK without papers, UK home office sends him/her back to the country of origin. There is no right to stay simply because the border control missed you on the way in.

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Eric9Points 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> I have been in and out of Switzerland via Vallorbe probably 20 times over the years, waved straight through on probably most of them.

So they were manned then?

I guess you're too young to remember real borders. They're a pain in the arse.

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to whispering nic:

Yes bad example but there are shit loads of non Schengen countries that won’t give a toss about who comes in or out or stamping your passport.

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jimtitt 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> So, OK, hypothetically I drive to To France, spend 89 days in France then drive into Andorra or Switzerland (non EU members) via an unmanned border or a simple passport check to ensure you are not a member of ISIS, spend 89 days there and try to get back across the border from France to the U.K. what happens ?


Well good luck finding an uncontrolled border crossing into Andorra! And Switzerland is part of the Schengen area.

And what happens after overstaying for 89 days? Depends on which country catches you, France it'll probably only be a fine, deportation AND  a f*ck off big red cross the next time you apply for a visa. You will be logged coming into Schengen and if you don't log out on time you are an illegal immigrant. 

There are more border controls in Europe than you probably think, just in Bavaria there are 500 immigration police checking who drives in from the neighbouring countries and they aren't the only ones, start with Denmark, Sweden, Poland and keep researching.

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Sans-Plan 14 Feb 2020
In reply to jimtitt:

I’m sure you are right, I just can’t get my head round how this sort of checking is ever going to be manageable for the amount of people moving around the EU.

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jimtitt 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

Moving round the EU/Schengen is easy, it's getting in and proving you left in the 90 days that isn't. And incidentally if the system reverts to pre-EU then after the visa period expires you will be liable for the VAT payable (and whatever import duty is imposed) on your van.

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HansStuttgart 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> Yes bad example but there are shit loads of non Schengen countries that won’t give a toss about who comes in or out or stamping your passport.

most people fly in and are checked at the airport. same for the ships at harbours in the south and for the transport between UK/Ireland and the mainland.

The next big border is the one in the east with Russia, Belarus, etc. Most of this region is empty with very few roads. Considering the tension with Russia, not a good idea to go for unchecked border crossings.

The internal border with Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, is also seriously checked.

So your best chances are the Greece-Bulgaria and Slowakia/Romania borders?

But the main point remains. Whether these countries care about border patrol or not, it is your problem if your entry in the database does not say you're legally in the Schengen area.

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Rob Parsons 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> She can do, but it is a massive pain in the butt, plus around £1.5k ...

In the context of your previous statement that "My wife (Dutch national) and I will never be able to go on holiday for more than 90 days each year", I would just pragmatically do it.

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Rob Parsons 14 Feb 2020
In reply to PPP:

> Also, not all countries allow dual citizenship. 

> That's the case for me, Scotland has been my home for almost a decade now, but I would need to give up my citizenship (and hence EU citizenship) to get British one. Would it be worth it, for someone who's in late 20s, like myself? I don't know!


What country are you from?

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jon 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> She can do, but it is a massive pain in the butt, plus around £1.5k and she didn't need to before.

Can she have dual nationality, Alan?

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Davidlees215 14 Feb 2020
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

But apparently we'll be able to drive over the border from northern Ireland into the eu with only checks on certain goods no passport checks.

Never have understood how that one's supposed to still mean we can stop eu criminals entering the country. 

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HansStuttgart 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Davidlees215:

because there are passport checks between Ireland and mainland EU. And the UK trusts the Irish border control agencies to prevent criminals from entering the country.

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Ian W 14 Feb 2020
In reply to Davidlees215:

> But apparently we'll be able to drive over the border from northern Ireland into the eu with only checks on certain goods no passport checks.

> Never have understood how that one's supposed to still mean we can stop eu criminals entering the country. 


It clearly doesn't, but then its only ireland, and our current govt (since Julian Smith got sacked) doesn't give a single sh1t about NI since they no longer need the DUP, and nobody votes tory over there.

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tmn 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

Surely you are trolling.

Its pretty straightforward. Schengen member states are required to control all borders to non-member states (the external borders). Passports of third-country nationals are being stamped on entry and exit. Note that the pre-travel authorisation itself does not entitle you to enter the Schengen area it only allows you to show up and ask to enter. Now it’s the responsibility of a border guard to establish the reasons for your travel when you are at the border itself. Missing exit stamps are a pretty good reason to refuse you entry.

This is very different from the actual right to travel within or enter the Schengen area through the ‘Freedom of Movement’. This is the key point.

Post edited at 01:43
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Andy Lagan 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> I have been in and out of Switzerland via Vallorbe probably 20 times over the years, waved straight through on probably most of them.

If you're planning on do that in the future with a UK registered car, be prepared for it becoming difficult

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climbercool 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

I hoped this wouldn't happen, very sad to see.  There are currently thought to be around 300,000 Brits living in Spain, many of these are retirees who have bought property and spend there pension in the Spanish economy,  the alpine ski industry has thousands of Brits who practically run some resorts,  restricting Brits to 90 days will put a sizeable dents in these countries economies.  Does anyone know if it is possible /legal for individual EU countries to make their own exceptions to this 90 day rule.

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jimtitt 15 Feb 2020
In reply to climbercool:

The people in Spain can get a multi-entry national visa (assuming they meet the financial criteria). Whether this becomes a bargaining point in the Gibralter negotiations.........

Workers of any type can apply for a work visa.

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wbo2 15 Feb 2020
In reply to climbercool:no that isnt possible in the EU.  EEA yes, but does UK residents of say Norway to get  in a mess.

  Theres already a UK visa system for short term unskilled - can't remember cost - £500?  Expect that to be reciprocated.   Ski resort labour will be easy to replace though

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HansStuttgart 15 Feb 2020
In reply to climbercool:

> I hoped this wouldn't happen, very sad to see.  There are currently thought to be around 300,000 Brits living in Spain, many of these are retirees who have bought property and spend there pension in the Spanish economy,  the alpine ski industry has thousands of Brits who practically run some resorts,  restricting Brits to 90 days will put a sizeable dents in these countries economies.  Does anyone know if it is possible /legal for individual EU countries to make their own exceptions to this 90 day rule.


The 90 days is not relevant for Brits wanting to do some work in the EU, ETIAS is a travel access system. If you want to work (even only a single week), you need a work visa. It is to be hoped that in the future relationship negotiations there'll be a deal for easy/automatic visa granting cooperation. But it will come with reciprocal rights for EU citizens getting work visas in the UK, and this is currently politically sensitive in the UK. So this will be some time...

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PPP 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Lithuania. We had a dual/multiple citizenship referendum last year and and it had 73.92% vote for it, but it still failed. As per Wikipedia, "In order for the constitutional amendments to be passed, voter turnout was required to be above 50%, and at least 50% of registered voters would have to vote in favour of the proposal."

While I associate home and future with Scotland, giving up a citizenship feels like something that you cannot back out from easily. 

Wiki on the referendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Lithuanian_constitutional_referendum

Post edited at 09:10
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climbercool 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

https://dispatcheseurope.com/no-deal-no-problem-more-eu-countries-guarantee-british-expats-post-brexit-grace-periods/

This webpage suggests each EU country can individually choose the criteria to be met in order to receive a residency permit.  It appears most countries are going to make it relatively straightforward for Brits to obtain resident status, maybe it will be straightforward enough that even the four month road tripper can easily obtain resident status somewhere and therefore stay as long as they like.

Or maybe I'm missing something?

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Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator15 Feb 2020
In reply to climbercool:

That article points out that there needs to be reciprocal right for other nations individuals in the UK - I am not convinced our current government wouldn’t happily send all the ‘foreigners’ home!

Chris

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BruceM 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

The "What are they gonna do about it-- throw us all out? And how?" argument was used by many Brits I told about the 90/180 rule.

When I was a 3rd-country citizen earlier in life, before getting UK/EU citizenship, I was stopped at Helbronner by armed police after crossing the Vallee Blanche in full climbing kit They checked our passports on a laptop and eventually gave us the go ahead. That was 2001. Much easier to do now.

There are cops everywhere at the moment in Spain and France doing random checks. Have been stopped by 3 in last month in a UK vehicle.

Good luck to the dreamers! 

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climbercool 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Chris Craggs:

yep, most countries are looking for reciprocal rights but it does seem as though different countries will have different requirements.

According to Forbes magazine Brits inject 1.32 billion yearly into the Alicante area alone, just for this reason i think we can be fairly confident that Spain are going to do everything they can to allow the continued free movement of Brits into their country, whether or not we offer them reciprocal rights.

Just to be clear, I am not highlighting this because i want our country to kick out the Spanish, just the opposite.  I am saying this because i think it is at least some what reassuring to Brits (like myself) who are planning futures in Spain.

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HansStuttgart 15 Feb 2020
In reply to climbercool:

> This webpage suggests each EU country can individually choose the criteria to be met in order to receive a residency permit.  

> Or maybe I'm missing something?

It looks like a regulation for Brits in the EU before 1.1.2021. I don't think it applies to Brits travelling to the EU after the end of the transition. 

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TobyA 15 Feb 2020
In reply to PPP:

Is the Lithuanian reticence to have dual nationality to do with the Russian minority? My memory was that Lithuania had a much smaller Russian minority than Latvia and Estonia, so just gave them all Lithuanian citizenship soon after independence, thus avoiding the big non citizenship problems that Estonia and Latvia have faced? Does Lithuania have conscription?

Edit: just read the Wikipedia article so see that Russian citizens would be specifically excluded. So really not sure why people didn't want it? 

Post edited at 10:11
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HansStuttgart 15 Feb 2020

In reply to 

> According to Forbes magazine Brits inject 1.32 billion yearly into the Alicante area alone, just for this reason i think we can be fairly confident that Spain are going to do everything they can to allow the continued free movement of Brits into their country, whether or not we offer them reciprocal rights.

The Brits with a lot of money will definitely be welcome. This is why killing freedom of movement is so sad.

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syv_k 15 Feb 2020

Indeed. Over the border in Portugal they offer Schengen visas to anyone outside the EU willing to buy 500k euros worth of Portuguese property and visit for a fortnight a year (less money required in some areas). It is assumed that Brits will become eligible with Brexit, and given property prices in SE england there will be a lot of retirees who could downsize from the big family home to a smaller place in the UK and a place in Portugal part financed from rental income. So freedom of movement will be possible, for some, but requiring more money, faff, and lawyers.

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Ciro 15 Feb 2020
In reply to jimtitt:

> Moving round the EU/Schengen is easy, it's getting in and proving you left in the 90 days that isn't. And incidentally if the system reverts to pre-EU then after the visa period expires you will be liable for the VAT payable (and whatever import duty is imposed) on your van.

Even if it doesn't, you'll no longer be covered by the European law that said your insurer must provide third party insurance regardless of your length of stay - I've got dual Irish citizenship so I'll have the right to stay but will still have to return to the UK and switch insurers every few months on a long trip. 

Aside from the cost and hassle, that's going to double the carbon footprint of a van trip every few months.

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Howard J 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

The effect on people's holidays may not be that important in the bigger scheme of things, but it is the sort of thing that people will soon come to notice.  The loss of freedom of movement will begin to make itself felt in all sorts of ways which will concern ordinary people far more than where the chicken in their takeaway comes from.  A few dirtbag climbers are just collateral damage, but the 90 day rule will disproportionately affect the retired generation (which largely voted for Brexit) who may wish to spend a lot of their time abroad .  Holidaymakers in general will find it takes longer to get through passport control, and may find that there are fewer British guides, ski-instructors, holiday reps, chalet persons etc when they get there.

As for those working abroad, there will be the hassle and expense of visas and the question whether British qualifications will still be recognised.  Any equipment taken into the EU for business purposes must be itemised on a carnet (an additional expense) which will be checked thoroughly at the border (an additional delay). Any items missing or added when they come to leave will cause questions to be asked and possible tax liabilities.

This will especially affect anyone who is not based abroad but travels regularly to the EU for work purposes, who will face this on every trip.  I don't know to what extent this will affect guides and instructors, who I imagine usually base themselves out there for the season, but it will certainly have a big impact on gear manufacturers travelling to trade fairs.  

Off topic, I know a lot of musicians and other artists who are very concerned that the additional costs and bureaucracy could make it uneconomic for them to take gigs abroad (or for EU artists to take gigs here). I know people who travel to Europe several times a month for one-off gigs for whom this may become impossible.

Maybe all these issues will be sorted out when the UK agrees its new arrangements with the EU.  However the politicians are concentrating on the big sexy issues which will most affect the economy, and don't seem to be very interested in these apparently less important matters.  However these are the issues which will most immediately and noticeably affect people's lives and which could quickly begin to undermine political support.

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Rob Parsons 15 Feb 2020
In reply to PPP:

> Lithuania. We had a dual/multiple citizenship referendum last year and and it had 73.92% vote for it, but it still failed.

Thanks for the info. Pity that referendum didn't pass.

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Rob Parsons 15 Feb 2020
In reply to TobyA:

> Edit: just read the Wikipedia article so see that Russian citizens would be specifically excluded. So really not sure why people didn't want it? 

The figures look like voter apathy. A good majority of those who voted did want it.

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HeMa 15 Feb 2020
In reply to climbercool:

Residency permit requires recidency...

4 months road trip does not sadly equal residency.

So most likely your idea of applying fro redicency for a road trip would pretty much be a no-go. Most often, it would require purchasing some land/property (see Portugal example below)... not really feasable for a dirtbag on a van lookin' crack the winter in Oliana etc.

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Gordon Stainforth 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons:

I'm just so sick of voter apathy .. resulting from lack of care, wilful ignorance, nationalistic fantasies, and extreme selfishness.

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wbo2 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:does anyone even want to speculate how much extra paperwork or cost for a British based guide wanting to guide in Europe? 

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silhouette 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

Mods! Surely this should be in "Off Belay" not  "Destinations"?  Can it be moved please?

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In reply to jon:

> Can she have dual nationality, Alan?

The Dutch did historically ask for people to relinquish their Dutch nationality but they have recently changed this.

Our kids have a full hand of passports! If my wife gets a British one then I will be the sad-sucker with just the one!

Alan

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OwenM 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

I just tried the citizenship test I got 15 out of 24 so that's me out. Just as well I'm a born and breed Brit.

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planetmarshall 15 Feb 2020
In reply to BruceM:

> Apparently it puts the "Great" back into Britain,  according to many of the interviews with voters that I watched.

Somewhat ironic that, given the prominence of the future of Northern Ireland in the Brexit debate - strictly speaking, "Great Britain" only refers to Scotland, England and Wales and not Northern Ireland.

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HansStuttgart 15 Feb 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Somewhat ironic that, given the prominence of the future of Northern Ireland in the Brexit debate - strictly speaking, "Great Britain" only refers to Scotland, England and Wales and not Northern Ireland.


Brexit as opposed to Ukexit...

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DancingOnRock 15 Feb 2020
Andy Manthorpe 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Alan, providing your wife gets settled status, she will be able to have absences of up to two years at a time for any reason. Have a look at this site and download the Pdf.

https://www.squirepattonboggs.com/en/insights/publications/misc/brexit-immigration-faqs

The relevant section is "Can status be lost once it has been granted ?", on page 3.

Hope that helps.

Andy

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PPP 15 Feb 2020
In reply to TobyA:

We have military service draft, but it's fairly minuscule thing as very few get to win the lottery. You can postpone it as it's not very appealing when you are abroad and have financial obligations - you get 300-350 euros a month for 9 months! 

As for the referendum, the vote was for it, but you need to get over 50% of registered voters for it to pass. It's pretty hard to do when we haven't had an election with a turnout of over 60% in last two decades. If same logic was applied to Brexit, it wouldn't have passed it either. 

The parliament didn't seem to oppose the idea, but you need a referendum to change the constitution. 

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olddirtydoggy 15 Feb 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

That's an excellent link. Takes much of the speculation away.

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mysterion 15 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

And who will be serving us our coffee in Pret?

Post edited at 23:37
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James Malloch 16 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James :

> The reverse situation is also true. My wife (Dutch national) and I will never be able to go on holiday for more than 90 days each year since she will lose her residency permit if we do that. Approaching retirement as we are, this is a fairly major curtailment of our travel rights. A luxury problem maybe but certainly one that will affect thousands of people and definitely not something that I would describe as 'better'.

 Hi Alan, could you expand on this please? My partner is a Dutch national also and, with settled status, I thought you could continue to travel a lot?

> If you have settled status, you can spend up to 5 years in a row outside the UK without losing your status.

I wanted to check if there's something I'm missing as we have plans for a ban trip not long after Brexit hits next year. 

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DancingOnRock 16 Feb 2020
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Yes. Always go to the source rather than believing the newspapers, especially ‘opinion’ pieces from newspapers who have a history of being biased in their reporting. 

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In reply to Andy Manthorpe:

Thanks Andy.

Looks like my information is wrong which breaks my rule of properly fact-checking things like this before quoting them since ill-informed speculation and SM rumours are the way we have got into this mess in the first place!

We are still short of an actual benefit from leaving though.

Alan

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dereke12000 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> We are still short of an actual benefit from leaving though.

That's because only the likes of Rees-Mogg and his cronies will benefit

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DancingOnRock 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

That’s because benefits/disadvantages are totally arbitrary depending on your point of view. 
 

It’s why it’s been so divisive. 
 

Something another person sees as a benefit you may see as a disadvantage. Therefor all you end up doing is arguing over a point of opinion.
 

It’s been done. Things will change. We all have to move on and cope. 

Post edited at 09:35
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In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Something another person sees as a benefit you may see as a disadvantage.

But I still want to know these. Virtually everything we have discussed in this thread isn't a benefit to anyone. Some of it may not be such a big disadvantage, but most of it is something that never existed before.

> It’s been done. Things will change. We all have to move on and cope. 

Yes, we need to cope, but if you are saying that we should shut up, accept it and not complain or point out the shortcomings of the whole Brexit plan, then I strongly disagree. Those of us that think this was a massive mistake need to hold the people that dragged the country into it to account and keep doing that time and again. 

Alan

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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Nempnett Thrubwell:

> The loss of free movement is absolutely one of the biggest losses from Brexit,

Though is also the thing that most Brexiteers seem to want most.  So probably the greatest area of conflict, too.

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jezb1 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Though is also the thing that most Brexiteers seem to want most.  So probably the greatest area of conflict, too.

Let’s be honest, they want to stop other people’s free movement, not their own.

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Mr Lopez 17 Feb 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Something another person sees as a benefit you may see as a disadvantage. Therefor all you end up doing is arguing over a point of opinion.

Arguing about whether Hugh Grant movies are good or bad is a difference of opinion.

Burning down the cinema to stop everyone from watching movies because you don't like Hugh Grant films isn't.

Claiming that people who are asking you why the hell did you burn the cinema are not respecting your opinion is disingenous at best

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DancingOnRock 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

For 3 years people have been expressing their opinions. No one has been listening. Why have you decided you’ll start listening now? My guess is you won’t and you’ll still see any ‘advantages’ put to you as disadvantages. 
 

All discussions go round in the same circles. 

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DancingOnRock 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Nope. That’s a terrible analogy. 

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Mr Lopez 17 Feb 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Nope. That’s a terrible analogy. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

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In reply to DancingOnRock:

> For 3 years people have been expressing their opinions. No one has been listening. Why have you decided you’ll start listening now? My guess is you won’t and you’ll still see any ‘advantages’ put to you as disadvantages. 

What do you mean no-one was listening? The problem with the Remain campaign was that it concentrated on the facts rather than the emotions. We listened too hard and failed to see that people weren't basing their votes/opinions on facts, but on their feelings.

But if you do want to discuss the facts, then you will find that any fact/opinion you present on this forum as a benefit of leaving will be listened to and debated in full. Try it.

Alan

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Ramon Marin 17 Feb 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

You've failed to point what the benefits are. Please enlighten me. I'm sure we can all cope, like people cope in war, that doesn't mean war is good. 

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DancingOnRock 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

Hmmm. There you go. 
 

Your emotional opinions are facts. 
Their emotional options aren’t. 
 

There's an impasse until both sides realise this. 

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DancingOnRock 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Ramon Marin:

Really? Have you not been listening for 3 years? Why now the change of heart? There’s pages of it here. Nothing has changed. Do some reading. 

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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to jezb1:

> Let’s be honest, they want to stop other people’s free movement, not their own.

Or they want "free movement for white people of UK descent" more likely.

I've long found it ironic that reducing EU freedom of movement will increase the number of non-white and possibly Muslim immigrants, as our economy won't stand a reduction in immigration overall.  The racists didn't think of that before they voted, did they?

(Note, I'm referring specifically to those who voted Leave for racist reasons; this post is not calling out all Leave votes as racists).

Post edited at 12:02
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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Hmmm. There you go. 

> Your emotional opinions are facts. 

> Their emotional options aren’t. 

> There's an impasse until both sides realise this. 

Agreed, that's precisely the problem and is why I call out people on both sides.

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In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Your emotional opinions are facts. 

> Their emotional options aren’t. 

Produce some examples and you might have a point. Until then all you are doing is side-stepping the argument with unsubstantiated and meaningless statements.

Alan

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In reply to Neil Williams:

> Agreed, that's precisely the problem and is why I call out people on both sides.

So do you think the arguments present by both sides were equivalent in terms of their factual substance?

Alan

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DancingOnRock 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Agreed, that's precisely the problem and is why I call out people on both sides.

Quite. It all gets very tedious and time consuming though. I don’t think you’ll get many people to examine their own deep seated beliefs. You just get into more arguments. 

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Neil Williams 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

> So do you think the arguments present by both sides were equivalent in terms of their factual substance?

I think the Remain argument was probably more factual as only they had the basis of "we keep what we have now" which was a known factual context (and a major reason why I voted Remain).

I do however hate scaremongering and lies, and will call them out in all cases.  The Remain campaign was not short of rubbish at times.  "You won't be able to go to France on holiday without applying for a visa in advance and attending the consulate", say, is almost certainly rubbish, as France would not want to lose the tourist trade.  You might need to do an ESTA style application but that's really minor.  Call out the things that are genuinely and provably bad (e.g. the loss of rights to live and work in the EU, or the serious economic damage as companies move out) and you have a better argument.

Post edited at 12:15
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payney1973 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

They don't need manned borders really, they can use licence plate recognition at each border point, then if you break the law you will flag up when you try to catch the ferry back to the UK or be picked up in your onward journey. The vision everyone has of former eastern block fully manned borders is not a requirement anymore.

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Toerag 17 Feb 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> Hmmmm. 


Doesn't remove the 90 day limit though.

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steve taylor 17 Feb 2020
In reply to payney1973:

> They don't need manned borders really, they can use licence plate recognition at each border point, then if you break the law you will flag up when you try to catch the ferry back to the UK or be picked up in your onward journey. The vision everyone has of former eastern block fully manned borders is not a requirement anymore.

... with facial recognition for all car occupants? That's the only way it could work.

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In reply to Neil Williams:

> Call out the things that are genuinely and provably bad (e.g. the loss of rights to live and work in the EU, or the serious economic damage as companies move out) and you have a better argument.

Which is basing arguments on facts albeit facts that are only revealing themselves as we grind through this utterly-depressing process.

I'd still love to be told of an actual perceived benefit that we can discuss but I doubt we are going to get that. Why might that be?

Are people afraid to debate or is it just that no-one knows any?

Alan

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DancingOnRock 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

The last paragraph says:

This means that the current proposals could change depending on the position of the UK’s position regarding the rights of EU nationals. The UK Government has said that freedom of movement will end at the conclusion of the transition period. However, it has mooted a visa-free travel scheme for EU tourists which should ensure travel continues very similarly to how it does today.

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In reply to DancingOnRock:

> This means that the current proposals could change depending on the position of the UK’s position regarding the rights of EU nationals. The UK Government has said that freedom of movement will end at the conclusion of the transition period. However, it has mooted a visa-free travel scheme for EU tourists which should ensure travel continues very similarly to how it does today.

Still not an actual 'benefit' though is it?

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Ramon Marin 17 Feb 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

I have done my reading and I have seen none. My immigration lawyer sees none. My clients see none. As I said, please enlighten me

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HeMa 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Neil Williams:

> The Remain campaign was not short of rubbish at times.  "You won't be able to go to France on holiday without applying for a visa in advance and attending the consulate", say, is almost certainly rubbish

Actually that is still undecided afaik (albeit you are quite right that it is unlikely). Because it depends on the UK decisions after the transit time has passed. If the UK starts requiring Visas for Europeans, you're pretty sure it will change on this side of the channel as well.

But it is more factual than the how-many-billions to NHS? Because from what I've gathered, that was based on nothing. The France Visa has at least something to do with reality (albeit it being slim).

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DubyaJamesDubya 17 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> So, OK, hypothetically I drive to To France, spend 89 days in France then drive into Andorra or Switzerland (non EU members) via an unmanned border or a simple passport check to ensure you are not a member of ISIS, spend 89 days there and try to get back across the border from France to the U.K. what happens ?

Will you need a visa for Switzerland?

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Ian W 17 Feb 2020
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Switz is in the Schengen area, so you will need an ETIAS visa waiver, just as you would for all Schengen countries in any case, given the UK has never been in the Schengen area.

https://etias.com/etias-countries/switzerland-etias

Post edited at 13:51
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jimtitt 17 Feb 2020
In reply to DancingOnRock:

> The last paragraph says:

> This means that the current proposals could change depending on the position of the UK’s position regarding the rights of EU nationals. The UK Government has said that freedom of movement will end at the conclusion of the transition period. However, it has mooted a visa-free travel scheme for EU tourists which should ensure travel continues very similarly to how it does today.


Two different things, ETIAS was coming anyway (that's the visa free part), the change is the 90 day limit for non-EU citizens.

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jimtitt 17 Feb 2020
In reply to steve taylor:

> ... with facial recognition for all car occupants? That's the only way it could work.


Well in the good old days the car was entered in your carnet which was linked to your passport .......

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planetmarshall 17 Feb 2020
In reply to HeMa:

> But it is more factual than the how-many-billions to NHS? Because from what I've gathered, that was based on nothing. The France Visa has at least something to do with reality (albeit it being slim).

There were a few Remain-myths around, such as Brexit benefiting hedge fund managers (it won't, at least no more than not-Brexit - that being the point of a hedge fund) and it all being about tax-dodging (most EU tax laws have already been enshrined into UK law, with a couple of minor exceptions none of which are going to make anyone very wealthy). References for these are on FullFact.

That's scraping the barrel though. A Ramon said, I come up short trying to think of any actual benefits to Brexit. Doesn't mean there aren't any, I'd be interested to hear some.

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BruceM 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Toerag:

One benefit of Brexit is longer-term, in that it has demonstrated to us Brits that we are not quite as clever as we thought we were. Our systems and our people (at all ends of the socioeconomic spectrum) have failed us. In future we will have to do better, and dig deep to convince ourselves and the rest of the world that we have something to offer. Not just rest on our laurels.

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Dogwatch 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Sans-Plan:

> Why ? Surely the onus is on the people controlling the movement ? 

No. You are an apparently illegal alien. Now prove otherwise.

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Rob Parsons 18 Feb 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

> ... I come up short trying to think of any actual benefits to Brexit. Doesn't mean there aren't any, I'd be interested to hear some.

In the context of national infrastructure projects, one benefit could be that the UK will no longer be constrained by EU procurement rules. So if we want work to go to UK companies (rather than to the EU company submitting the lowest possible tender), then we should be able to choose that.

Post edited at 12:07
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innes 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> In the context of national infrastructure projects, one benefit could be that the UK will no longer be constrained by EU procurement rules. So if we want work to go to UK companies (rather than to the EU company submitting the lowest possible tender), then we should be able to choose that.

Sorry Rob, but having worked on several major infrastructure procurement projects, I know that this is a gross misrepresentation of reality.  The majority of significant public procurements are awarded on the basis of "Most Economically Advantageous Tender" (MEAT) not "Least Cost", as you imply.  Under MEAT there is huge (almost unlimited, if you want it) scope for accommodating non-financial considerations, such as supply chain management, and sustainability.  If UK procurements haven't sought to utilise this, then that's our problem not the EU's, I'm afraid, so I can't see BREXIT changing anything in this regard.

Post edited at 12:42
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neilh 18 Feb 2020
In reply to planetmarshall:

 Well todate it looks as though Brexit still means that plenty of Europeans want to work here

In October-December there were an estimated 2.31 million EU nationals working in the UK, 36,000 more than a year earlier. That's according to the latest figures on EU/non-EU workers in the UK from the Office for National Statistics.

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Rob Parsons 18 Feb 2020
In reply to innes:

> Sorry Rob, but having worked on several major infrastructure procurement projects, I know that this is a gross misrepresentation of reality. 

innes, I am happy to be told I'm 'wrong', and have that explained why. I am less happy to be accused of  'a gross misrepresentation of reality.' When that happens, I generally just lose interest and leave - I don't need the hassle in what after all is simply an anonymous online discussion.

I had not heard of MEAT but have now googled for it. (For the benefit of others, see e.g. https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Most_Economically_Advantageous_Tender_(MEAT) )

It isn't obvious to me that that would allow the stipulation of a UK-based company as part of the tender conditions. Perhaps putting the whole thing another way: leaving the EU should mean that the UK no longer legally needs to tender EU-wide at all, should it choose not to do so.

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Ian W 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons: and Innes:

> innes, I am happy to be told I'm 'wrong', and have that explained why. I am less happy to be accused of  'a gross misrepresentation of reality.' When that happens, I generally just lose interest and leave - I don't need the hassle in what after all is simply an anonymous online discussion.

> I had not heard of MEAT but have now googled for it. (For the benefit of others, see e.g. https://www.designingbuildings.co.uk/wiki/Most_Economically_Advantageous_Tender_(MEAT) )

> It isn't obvious to me that that would allow the stipulation of a UK-based company as part of the tender conditions. Perhaps putting the whole thing another way: leaving the EU should mean that the UK no longer legally needs to tender EU-wide at all, should it choose not to do so.

Agree with both of you; projscts can be awarded on the basis of MEAT, but we seem to be spectacularly successful in actually awarding the contract to the lowest cost bidder, on the basis of "value for the taxpayer". We shouldn't do it this way, but do, and no, we aren't required to do it by EU rules, but do it nonetheless.

Post edited at 13:39
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innes 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Hi Rob, apologies if the tone of my reply wasn't the way I intended (I must think more about what I write). Really sorry.  

Public procurement is really complex. That's one of the major critisisms of it.  But, if you think of it as trying to keep public institutions on the straight and narrow (avoiding back-handers, or decisions being based a politician's advantage) then it makes some sesnse.  Its worth thinking about how valuable just that is, before we assume that "UK first" is our priority.  

I've been involved in awarding several £bn contracts to "private" companies for UK infrastructure and  service provisions under PFI projects (don't crucify me!).  But if you look at the shareholding of these companies you frequently see that the majority shareholder is actually another EU national government (e.g. Veolia).  Think of it this way: in many cases the UK hasn't been privitising at all, in fact its been nationalising its infrastructure to another nation!  So, you see "nationalism" in infrastructure development has never been a problem, if that's what you want to do - remember the UK nationalised banks after the crash, and that was completely fine under EU rules.  

So, why does France do this but not the UK?  Well, that's our sovereign government's decision and always has been.  Nothing to do with being bossed around by Brussels.  

The most recent decisions regarding Huawei and 5G infrastructure should tell us everything we need to know about how the current government will run future infrastructure procurement competitions.  

TL:DR: it was never the EU's fault and BREXIT won't change things.  

Post edited at 14:05
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innes 18 Feb 2020
In reply to Ian W:

> and Innes:

>  we seem to be spectacularly successful in actually awarding the contract to the lowest cost bidder, on the basis of "value for the taxpayer". We shouldn't do it this way, but do, and no, we aren't required to do it by EU rules, but do it nonetheless.

^^^ from first hand experience - precisely this.  It's always been our (UK governement's) choice to do it this way....

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payney1973 04:24 Wed
In reply to steve taylor:

That technology exists like

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steve taylor 06:46 Wed
In reply to payney1973:

Yes, facial recognition technology exists, but won't work for everyone in the car of they are not looking at a camera with an unimpeded line-of-sight.

Plus it never gets it wrong, does it?

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