UKC

Thought i'd drive down to the roaches earlier today to have a good poke about soloing & bouldering. It's a long drive but i'd never been & i'm always willing to drive far for a good day out.
Anyway as i passed through the gate at car park there was three lads there so i gave them a friendy hello & thought nothing of it.
After having a good boulder about on the lower boulders i thought i'd walk across the bottom of the lower tier to have a look & passed two climbers, they were fine but beyond them were them three lads joined by a young lass.
Now, im not sure if she & another one of the lads was looking after the other two younger lads as i'd heard there was a 'home' close by but one of them from nowhere started calling me stupid & wierd for having a mat & wearing a beanie, at this point i tried my best to make light of it but that clearly was'nt going to happen, everything i said back to him he just kept on insulting me & he just pushed me too far so i walked over & squared up to him, i know it is'nt big or clever but i'd tried to ignore him but he obviously did'nt like the look of me, he carried on some more choice words but not with as much insult towards me but i decided to push him anyway, luckily for him & me before he fell of the drop behind one of the others stopped him falling, at this point the other little cretin started shouting his mouth off, i decided to leave or things would have got out of control. Fearing for my car as they'd seen me pull up in it i thought it was best to leave & that was my first visit to the roaches, ruined by little shits.

Has anyone ever had this kind of thing happen to them at the roaches before? Or anywhere else for that matter.

In reply to phleppy: How old were they?

In reply to phleppy:

Not sure what The King and Lord of the Roaches would have made of your beanie and mat. Quite possible that an axe would have made an appearance at some time in the encounter.

In reply to Stanley: I find it hard to tell peoples age these days, teenagers with maybe the other lad & lass in there twenty's, look they were threatening & promising violence, i did'nt really care at that point.

In reply to phleppy: I've been to the Roaches 2 or 3 times and never seen any non climbers or walkers really. It doesn't seem the place to attract that sort of antisocial type, unlike black rocks for example. I think you were unlucky, shame, but don't that let that put you off the roaches. I hope you're keeping well, I enjoyed that bouldering session at stanage plantation, even if I failed to send anything!

In reply to phleppy: I'm not sure if there is a care home nearby, but I am aware that a friend who works within these circles takes kids in care to the Roaches so it might have been from his organisation.

Just put it down to experience and move on mate. glad your property wasnt harmed.

In reply to phleppy:

Congratulations on not pushing him off the edge. Sounds like your day was almost much worse.

Your story reminds me of Eden Lake which is a must see for anyone that's ever dealt with an obnoxious group of teenagers

In reply to jamesgreenfield: Hello there james, yes that was a really good day, them other two lads were sound aswell. Some days you dont get up anything new but as long as your out that is what counts really. I was totally caught off guard there today, it's the first time for years i've been started on by anyone but to be fair he did shit himself once he knew he could'nt bully me.
Hope your doing well yourself? Where have you got to lately & are you still climbing?

There are several care homes within the area, with the kids been messed up emotionaly. Its unlucky that the incident spoilt your first experience of the roaches which is my local crag, yours is the first experience of this i have heard about. Without sounding 2 critical the fact that u got wound up by there behaviour would have made them keep doing it as they would have enjoyed making someone else feel as shit as they do. With this in mind it would have been a lot better to walk away and call the local police just to make sure the group hadnt been reported missing. Looking at the positives of such charming youngsters at least they were getting fresh air instead of visitin the closest drug dealers, hope the experience don stop u from returning tho, it normally is a friendly venue!

In reply to climber_medic: Thanks for that, maybe they were troubled, either way it does'nt give them a right to act like idiots regardless of their age.

In reply to trouserburp: I'm very thankfull i did'nt push him off or it would've been prison for me i think.

Yea i've seen that film although im not a filmy person, fairly similar situation actually but i was'nt murdered which is a bonus, it is disturbing & especially the end.

In reply to phleppy: 'everything i said back to him he just kept on insulting me & he just pushed me too far so i walked over & squared up to him, '

I think maybe that's where you're going wrong. Some dimwit tries to wind you up ... and succeeds. Extraordinary.

In reply to phleppy: Hi, I'm still climbing but not quite as much as I was, mostly trad around the eastern edges. I hope your future climbing trips are better than that one. If you go back to the Roaches I think stretch and mantle is a very good problem on the lower tier. It was a bit hard for me but a classic problem.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: Yea good one.....

In reply to phleppy:

I think you were very unlucky. I've been up there on my own and during the week countless times and never come across anyone like this.

In reply to phleppy: Nope, never had any issues out climbing. I think maybe it's cause you were on your own, if you were in a group they might have left alone.

In reply to phleppy:

'It isn't big or clever', is probably an accurate summary of what you have described.

In reply to phleppy:

Not familiar with the area - exactly how high would that drop have been had you pushed him over the edge and his mate not stopped him?

In reply to phleppy:

Let me get this clear, because it sounds like

Someone called you names, so you assaulted them, and then came on here looking for sympathy

and that can't be true, can it?

In reply to phleppy: Mamby pamby libral do gooders. He should have bust the cockie little shits nose. People like this need to know the live along side other people these types are always going on about how they should be showen respect but show none to other people.

In reply to JJL:

Get yourself up to Dumbarton Rock, neds at all ages who whilst drinking and getting stoned marvel in the delight at what your there to try and are generally good crack, sorry to hear your day was spoiled but pushing close to and results in at least manslaughter

In reply to David Reid:

*Close to an edge*

In reply to Russell Lovett:

Easy tiger, I just asked a question. I genuinely don't know the Roaches, and whether a 'push over the edge' would have been a six foot gravelly stumble or a sixty foot death-plummet. Is that ok?

Ironic that your reply is so aggressive and anti-social, given the thread subject, by the way.

(and I won't take the easy option of pointing out spelling, grammar and sentence construction - I promise)

In reply to phleppy

Is the antisocial behaviour in the title referring to you assaulting someone?

In reply to 9WS9c3jps92HFTEp:


Careful...I've just been accused of being a 'libbrel Nammby Pammby' (or something). You may get tarred with the same brush

In reply to 9WS9c3jps92HFTEp: I'd call it a pre-emptive strike.

In reply to phleppy:
Why on gods green earth should the OP or anyone else for that matter put up with being abused? I won't "take no notice" of people like this and would confront them if neccasary. Pushing someone off the roaches is never a good idea but i don't think letting someone abuse you is good either.
These types of people are the type who pick on war veterans or anyone else who cannot/will not defend themselves so why should we encourage this behavior to be accepted/allowed.

In reply to jas wood:

No one is condoning it...I like nothing better than a bit of a face-off with an unwashed street pleb who thinks he's untouchable and has probably never been stood up to.

I tend to limit my responses to 'words', 'looming' and 'glowering' and don't go all the way to manslaughter / attempted murder though.

That's all I'm saying

In reply to ThunderCat:

"libral namby pamby do-gooder". Never been called that before.

In reply to phleppy: I wounded how this situation would have panned out if the climber had been Don Whillans or on of the smith brothers Tommy or Bob (gordie climbers).

In reply to phleppy:

Sounds to me like you handled the incident pretty badly but then we've all mishandled confrontations at some point. What did you have to lose from just ignoring it? What did you stand to lose by engaging with the abuse?

Learn from it, move on and thank your lucky stars you're not in the nick facing charges.

In reply to gritrash0:

Good try but you can't claim pre emptive strike if you walk over to the other party first. If you felt threatened you should have walked the other way.

No one is saying the lads behaviour was acceptable but the OP over stepped the mark by pushing him. Coming on here to write about it just seems odd to me, sort of bragging about assaulting a youth.

In reply to Russell Lovett:

What's your point caller?

In reply to phleppy:

It's one of the sad things about this country that the act of reacting to someone being an arsehole is frowned upon more than the act of being an arsehole in the first place.

In reply to 9WS9c3jps92HFTEp:
Why?
Why are so many people instinctive reactions to put up with shit? I think good on the OP and it seems the only shame is that the little a**holes are still kicking about to make trouble for someone else.
And the whole idea of a pre-emptive strike is that you get them before they get you.
The OP was being abused and stood up for himself. Good for him.

I didn't get the vibe he was trying to brag about it either, he seemed a bit more shocked and puzzled as to why, when he was minding his own business and climbing on his own, someone thought they had the right to harass him.

In reply to Chris Harris:

It's not that reacting is neccessarily frowned upon. It's that not reacting is generally considered to be the more civilised response.

In reply to 9WS9c3jps92HFTEp:

Yes you can justifiably use a pre emptive strike even if you have approached them. In dynamic situations things change. If the lad went to hit you, pulled a knife etc.

i agree however in this situation he would struggle.

BTW just because someone is a youth does not mean it is morally wrong to push/whack them if it's needed. A 10/11yr old yes that's wrong, a late teen early 20yr old as in this situation no.

One of the most violent people i ever knew was a 13 yr old girl who every weekend would get some cans of stella in her and go looking for a fight. I once saw my colleague punch her straight on the nose and it was a totally justified preemptive strike by a 30 odd yr old police officer on a 13 yr old girl. Wouldn't look good written down though.

In reply to DaveHK: My point is if you act like this with a person you do not know eventualy someone is not going to be intimidated be you and strike back harder than you expected. If I were the other person I would not feel bad for sticking up for myself.

In reply to biscuit:

You're right about that much.

In reply to Russell Lovett:

Some things are worth sticking up for. A single incident of random abuse is rarely going to be one of them.

Have you read The Villan?

In reply to biscuit:
You're right, it doesn't look good written down. Not a copper, but I have to say it comes as a surprise to read that punching anyone (regardless of age) straight on the nose is considered 'justified' within the bounds of reasonable force.

In reply to biscuit:

Yes but we are talking about the situation described in the OP's post and there was no knife or a 13 yo girl involved.

You can not walk over to someone who is gobbing off and push them and claim self defence without any escalating conduct in between.

No issue with your colleagues behaviour if circumstances dictated that to be a proportionate response.

In reply to Tom Valentine:
Correct, the Rt Hon Dougie Moller wouldn't have stood for this kind of behaviour.
When he was booted out, I swore I would never return there

In reply to MJAS82:

A bit like stabbing someone to death, or shooting them dead. Two (fairly recent) cases of reasonable force against burglars.

In reply to off-duty:

Sorry - I could have been clearer. The post I replied to was not referring to householders, which you presumably are, but to serving, on duty police officers, presumably with the benefit of all the relevant training and equipment that goes with that job. And the post did not relate to burglars, but to drunk 13 year olds.

In reply to DaveHK: Yes have read the book. Not saying that nearly pushing him over a cliff was a good idea but if the OP had punched the lad the it should not come as a suprise to the lad or anyone else. If you go around doing what the young lad did then sooner or later you are going to come a cropper, wether it's right or wrong, diffrent people react differently in these situations. Who,s to say who's right or wrong. That's just the way it is.

In reply to MJAS82:

A good example of this was shown on the 999 Emergency programme where a "serving, on duty police officer, presumably with the benefit of all the relevant training and equipment that goes with that job" is shown on CCTV being knocked unconscious by a .... drunk 13 year old girl.

It never looks good written down, especially to people who don't have to confront violent anti-social, drunk and/or drugged, adolescents. Especially when they have grown up in an environment where no-one ever says no to them and there are no meaningful consequences to their actions.

In reply to phleppy:

Your conduct seems fine to me.

When a group abuses an individual, I judge the group extremely harshly.

In my experience people will abuse you as far as they think they can with only regard for their own safety. Once they are made aware that their own safety is at stake behaviors change.

Unfortunately I'm probably not the average juror.

How would I have felt in that situation, pretty f*cked off. Calling the police at the time might have been the best course of action.

In reply to off-duty:
Taking 2 steps back to gain some perspective -

Drunk 13 year olds can indeed be violent and dangerous.

There are times when the use of force is reasonable, both for police officers and members of the public.

The actions that could reasonably be expected of a trained police officer faced with this situation are not the same as those of any member of the public, given that many in the general public do not have the same level of skill as the police in attempting to defuse a situation, and if that fails, physically managing the situation with the minimum of harm to themselves and others.

The post I replied to was in relation to a police officer punching a 13 year old on the nose. The general impression I had of the police was of a highly professional organisation that prides itself on dealing with difficult situations with the minimum of force. This impression did not previously include punching anybody, of any age, on the nose, and although I have come across violent, anti-social adolescents, I've not seen this response before. If this is the sort of force that is required and trained for within the police, I'm quite prepared to be corrected.

In reply to MJAS82:

Being a very anti violence person myself ( who has reported fellow officers for what i considered to be wrongful use of violence )one of the things i had to get used to was the fact that you are allowed to do this. I hope you never do have to see it because it's not pretty but is sometimes necessary. It is indeed required and very much trained for. You learn ( and are taught ) the non verbal signals people give off that mean you are about to be attacked, not just if they are being verbally aggressive. If you see them what do you do ? Allow yourself to be attacked and then respond or act first ?

She had been CS'd in the past and it just sent her wild(er). Options then are manual restraint - chance of us being hurt and her being hurt ( dislocated shoulders, broken wrists etc ) - hit her with a baton ( much worse than option a ) or a quick jab on the nose which totally took her by surprise, stopped her in her tracks and enabled us to restrain her without much fuss. The equipment we have is not for tickling people. I find it strange having been on the other end that people don't realise this.

In reply to off-duty:

Your comment digusts me, if the officer in question really wanted to do the job other than the reasons of it as a job for life and its a good pension then they would never have got into that situation with a bad attitude and thinking oh its only a minor i will be fine, major problem with police forces uk wide is their recruitment is not on the ball

In reply to David Reid:

Is this reply directed at me?

It does make an awful lot of assumptions.

In reply to David Reid:

You've lost me. Not meant to be flippant but if you could say what it is that disgusts you i/we may be able to better explain.

In reply to David Reid:

I a guessing you were responding to me and clicked on off duty by accident.

The officer in question was a long serving one who i had the utmost respect for. This was a regular occurrence and had previously ended with her assaulting officers with weapons, self harming, assaulting her family and the public and damaging an awful lot of property.

She was in her lounge so CS was probably out anyway. Many items at hand that she could use as a weapon, which she had done before, and believe me talking with her was useless. I was the local beat bobby and knew her well ( she was quite pleasant when sober ) and had tried many times.

Thoughts of pension and job for life were certainly not in my head at the time. I can't vouch for my colleague but i can say he had one of the best attitudes i had come across. He was a career long PC and loved his job. Not because it made him feel powerful or special but because he loved what he did.

As for getting ourselves into that situation when you get a call saying someone is in a house smashing it up how do you not get into a situation ? Do we stand outside and shout through the letterbox or ask them nicely if they wouldn't mind coming out and giving themselves up ?

Situations like this happen all the time and sometimes we get it wrong despite training, sometimes the wrong attitude is used, some police are bullies but the vast majority of the time we get it right.

In reply to biscuit:

I'd also like to point out that as the local bobby i was also working with her social worker, attempting to get a parenting order for her Mum and Stepdad, and liasing with the local high school about her attendance spending quite a bit of my time chasing her down and bringing her back to school.

It's not all about responding to the emergency a lot of long term work goes on as well that is not often seen to try to stop us all getting into situations like that again.

Anyway i am of to bed now.

In reply to phleppy:

It's never happened to me and I've been there almost everyday for the past 10 years.

Firstly, be careful suggesting that these idiots were from any 'home' nearby, unless you are sure they are. I work in several of these places nearby and would hate to be associated with one of the residents 'kicking off' with climbers. Even suggesting such a thing can make my life harder, it really doesn't help casting aspersions.

Secondly, don't bother 'squaring up' to people like this, just smack them if you mean it, or ignore them. They love a 'rise' but hate being knocked out. If you want to do something half hearted, they hate having their photograph taken, I've done this on two occasions when I've seen unsavouries in the car park, both times they left a few moments later.

Finally, never, ever, ever start a fight wearing a bouldering pad. The video would be viral within hours

In reply to andi turner: Have you though about running as a police commisoner ( think that's what there calling them) you,d get my vote.

In reply to Chris Harris:

IME the arseholes are looking for a reaction, giving them that reaction makes the problem worse. Ignore them and they get bored very quickly.

In reply to Russell Lovett: Ha! I'd be a terrible Police Officer, I'd go power mad. Noone's leaving their fog lights on on my watch!

In reply to Chris Harris:

Argh. No one is frowning down upon "reacting against an arsehole". Some of us are just saying that pushing someone off the edge of a cliff is a bit of an over reaction to someone winding you up.

And an ironic one given that it's in response to anti social behaviour. There's nowt more anti social than murder.

In reply to andi turner: Dont mean a pc I'm thinking of the commisioners that we are supposed to be voting for soon.

My apologies ' off duty' !!

Buscuit, you really should keep stories of your colleagues actions to yourself regarding assaulting minors and Ive heard off/ know a few thuggish people who didnt join as they loved the job but for my original post, thankfully I know more that take pride in what they do.

I Hope that Phleppy has a more relaxing outing next time.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Depends who you murder really..

In reply to Ridge:

Well yeah, I guess there are exceptions to any rule

In reply to phleppy:


Well, what do you expect if you want to be an exhibitionist?

In reply to David Reid:
Why ? It was directly pertinent to what was being discussed. It was also justified both morally and legally. That was the point. It's the first threadofthis kind i've commented on for a long time. Can you tell me what upsets you about it ? Other than it was a grown up hitting a 13yr old because i hope i've explained why that happened ? Any thoughts on what else we could have done ?

You will always hear of a few thuggish people as i admitted above. Just like those bad teachers we all had and the bad NHS staff we've come across.

Unfortunately negative incidents tend to stay in our minds and as you say the vast majority in all these professions ( and others i've not listed ) are doing a great job in hard conditions.

In reply to phleppy: Id have clocked him myself. Screw the naysayers, scrotes need to get what they deserve.

Watch this.

youtube.com/watch?v=C9Dg-ucGarg&

In reply to biscuit:

If, as you say, you know a few nice police officers run it by them and see what they say.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

As a comment says "this is probably the best video on youtube"

In reply to phleppy:
1)These kids were out of order.
2)Unless you can justifiably claim you were in imminent fear for your safety, it's not a pre-emptive strike, most definitely not if you enter their space (ie 'squaring off' to them).
3)You are lucky he didn't fall and have a serious accident.
4)You are lucky you didn't get your own head kicked in, confronting groups when on your own over fairly trivial matters of ego is foolish when you consider all the possible ramifications.
5)A grown man who is confident of himself should be able to handle the situation without resorting to force first, whether by ignoring it, walking away or asserting himself.
6)I do sympathise, it sounds like they were right little knobbers and it is very easy for us to sit here after the fact and tell you what you shoud have done, nobody gets these things right all the time.
7)Is this a troll?

In reply to nw:

I'm beginning to wonder because since he's come in for criticism the OP has been strangely quiet, and not added any more to the debate.....

In reply to phleppy: Had a similar experience to this a few years ago at Black Rocks.I was with a female partner and there were 4 youths in their late teens,slagged us off a bit and were clearly eyeing up the ropes and gear for a bit of robbery.Nobody else around.

I talked them into a bit of bouldering and top roping,which somewhat defused the situation.

I rarely go to Black Rocks now,tho.
A fine excuse for avoiding new route projects...
Mitch

In reply to phleppy:

I've been to the Roaches quite a few times and don't recall ever using a gate and a car park. Are you sure you have the right place ?

In reply to GrahamD:

I've been to the Roaches quite a few times too and use a car park and a gate every time. Are you sure you have the right place?

In reply to Doghouse: I was wondering where this car park is too, I've always parked at the side of the road in one of the bays, is that what people mean by a car park. I do go through a gate though.

In reply to Doghouse:

Absolutely. Roadside parking below the crag and Whilans hut. Where is your car park ?

In reply to phleppy:

I saw this thread when it started and I thought I'd leave it a bit and see if the usual happened... and it did, now the person who was, apparently, the victim is being lynched! Happens every time

In reply to nw:


Can't believe it took 70 posts to realise that. 10/10 for the OP.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

I can't believe how many people must have read the post and not twigged that it didn't describe the Roaches !

In reply to DaveHK:

But that is the wrong response. Allowing behaviour like this to go unchallenged encourages more of it in the future and we are paying for that attitude now by the numbers of knobs that you see thinking they have a free license to be an arsehole, especially after they have had a few drinks. On the flip side, the person challenging the idiot escalates the situation and it may get violent. The vast majority of confrontations like this are not violent, especially when dealing with teenagers who are learning about life and need to learn that they can't act like this in a civilised society.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Someone that is the moderator for 13 crags and has had a profile for 3 years sets up a troll?

youtube.com/watch?v=c7LrViaPq7M&

In reply to GrahamD:

Stop being pedantic! The roadside parking bay is a car park. After parking in it, you go through a gate to get to the crag.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Unfortunately it has to be disqualified because he contributed to the thread at least 5 times after the OP.

Good try though.

In reply to Toreador:

Well, the whole thing doesn't really ring true does it ?

In reply to GrahamD:

Well, I'd happily call those great big feck off roadside parking bays a 'car park' but hey! what do I know you also need to go through a gate to leave the road. .. .