UKC

So we've had the best sport destinations, what are your favourite trad destinations?

Looking for exciting new places to visit for future trips.

My favourite trad destinations have been:

Tafraoute
Wadi Rum
Central Switzerland- Badile, Salbit etc
Lofoten
NW Scotland (when it's not raining!)
Dolomites
Pembroke
Cornwall
Gola Island (Ireland)
Lakes

I think that's based on the overall appeal of the destination, not just the climbing, Tafraoute definitely isn't the best climbing, but it was the best trip!

In reply to Elsier:

Gogarth...


Thread closed.

In reply to Elsier:














How can you possibly not include Snowdonia?

In reply to Elsier:

ARAPILES wins for me

In reply to Elsier:

Kustavi, SW-Finland...

In reply to tommack:

+1 Arapiles

In reply to TobyA:


And there isn't in the Lakes or Scotland?...gosh!

In reply to Elsier:

Another vote for Arapiles!

In reply to Nicholas Livesey:


Maybe there is a clue in the OP, where it says
"overall appeal of the destination, not just the climbing"

In reply to TobyA and Blue Straggler: Well, the best climbers Britain has ever produced seem to think it's pretty good!

In reply to Nicholas Livesey:

And again.
Maybe there is a clue in the OP, where it says
"overall appeal of the destination, not just the climbing"

In reply to Elsier:

Arapiles and North Wales.

In reply to Nicholas Livesey:

Well it is "pretty good", but my feeling having climbed in other places around the world is the climbing on North Wales mountain rock isn't as special as some would have everyone believe.

It's very diverse for a small area and the landscapes are nice, but most of the classic routes I've done haven't lived up to the hype they get. They might be the best in England and Wales, but that's just wee part of the world isn't it?

In reply to Bulls Crack:


In Scotland you just wait for it to freeze up and get covered in snow, then your vegetated ledge shuffling becomes mixed perfection.

In reply to AdrianC:

If Arapiles were a sea cliff, we would have a winner.

but as its not - Gogarth, by quite a long way

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Seconded!

In reply to Dave Ferguson:

But it was a sea cliff once.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:


Not even the best sea cliff in wales, let alone the UK or the world; a world class venue has surely got to have top class rock.

Nobody's mentioned Utah (Moab/Indian Creek area).

In reply to Robert Durran:
a world class venue has surely got to have top class rock.
but what makes Gogarth special is the mixture of solid steep well protected routes straight from the sea compared with loose trouser filling adventures on choss. Gogarth routes stick long in the memory after most others have faded into obscurity.

Solid rock is not the most important factor here.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:


Maybe not the most important, but certainly an important factor. Anyway, I was more thinking that Gogarth quartzite is just a bit nondescript.

In reply to Robert Durran:

+1 Arapiles. Not a bad score so far for a crag at the other side of the world

In reply to Elsier:

For me, NW Scot by a country mile. Amazing variety, unsurpassed scenery and atmosphere, and the best rock anywhere. The place is magical, and the climbing is spiritually fulfilling.

In reply to Elsier:

Well obviously, Yosemite..

indian Creek is up there too. Particularly if you liked Wadi Rum

Road trip time.

In reply to TobyA:

You've got a point. Lots of people comment on best stuff in the world when they haven't been anywhere.

In reply to Elsier:
Tremadog of course

Scotland naturally
The Lakes too, though much over looked has some cracking routes in great situations

But although it is not particularly high, popular, and doesn't have the climate or grand. Vistas of some places it is hard to beat the Peak District as a trad venue. Gritstone, limestone, secluded valleys and open moors, some of the hardest routes in the world and yet enough for the beginner to last a lifetime. Iconic routes like Partheon Shot and hundreds of obscure delights. The quarried rock of Millstone and the natural lines of Dovedale. As Samuel Johnson didn't say "when a man is tired of Stanage he is tired of life"
Basically I don't know of anywhere in the world with such variety and it doesn't have scorpions

In reply to Elsier:

The best trad in the world is on the Outer Hebrides.

Cheers

Trist

In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:

I love Yosemite - you never forget your first sight of El Cap. But if I was going back to California I reckon a return to Joshua Tree would be top of my destination list. Magical surroundings. But then I think Staffs grit is the best climbing anywhere, and JT is like that on steroids. And if you put those together in a road trip I'd go via Red Rocks, to reassure your ego with some non-nails grades.

In reply to Elsier:

Toulumne
Arapiles
Dolomites

Haven't climbed in Norway, but looks special.

In reply to Andy Clarke: It's very subjective isn't it. I didn't think the climbing at Joshua Tree was that great (but I didn't do a huge amount). A lovely and unique place to visit, but I'd spend my time in Yosemite and Red Rocks (and Lake Tahoe, but I haven't been there so I couldn't recommend it).

In reply to Elsier:

Wilton

Caithness

Culm / North Atlantic Coast

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I agree it's very much a matter of personal preference. For our road trip we flew into SF, spent a couple of weeks in Yosemite/Tuolumne, then through the Tioga Pass to a few days in Bishop, across Death Valley for a week in Red Rocks, ending with a few days in JTree before flying out of LA. So pretty much all tastes were catered for!

In reply to Fiend:

Luath Stones?

In reply to Elsier:

Orco and Val di Mello, Red Rocks

In reply to Fiend:


Culm has only one good crag, the rest are those god-awful slabs.

Pentire looks excellent, Gowler looks rather odd (only seen on a damp day from the top - bleak). All in all, a bunch of oddities on the way to West Penwith.

In reply to Elsier:

My top three venues are
1. Arapiles
2. Arapiles
3. Arapiles

I know a certain T Blair said something similar in a different context, but it does answer!

In reply to Smelly Fox:


This I can well believe.

In reply to Smelly Fox:


Obviously everyone loves their own patch in the UK, be it Snowdonia, Cornwall, N.w. Scotland or even (a bit comically) The Lakes or Gogarth, but, looked at realistically and objectively, the UK does not have anything of the world class of Yosemite, or Indian Creek, or wadi Rum, or Lofoten or Arapiles (I'll take people's word for it - the photos always make it look completely underwhelming).....

.....except Mingulay and Pabbay.

In reply to Elsier:

My favourite at the moment is the Jebel el Kest area in Morocco. Not as impressive as Yosemite but ther's lots of it, plenty of potential for new routes, quiet, cheap and not too far away with reliable weather.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I could not agree more.

In reply to Robert Durran:




Chudleigh?

In reply to Elsier:
Fair Head

In reply to Elsier:

Lumpy ridge Colorado, Morrocco, Orco italy.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Fighting talk!

In reply to TobyA:


Have you actually done much climbing in Snowdonia Toby? Perhaps you picked the wrong routes or just went off route.

I recently went on a ten week climbing road trip to the US. We went to lots of famous crags and did lots of very good routes. I still didn't think any of them were any better than some of the very best routes in North Wales. Although the rock architecture in North Wales isn't anywhere near as impressive, the climbing is far more varied (I don't know about you but I find cracks are a bit same old same old a lot of the time.) and is really, really high quality.

I mean have you done routes like: Dream of White Horses, Scratch Arete, Shrike, Cenotaph Corner, The Grooves, Craig Ddu Wall, Grooved Arete, The Moon? If you haven't: go and do them. If you have and thought they were ledge shuffling, I can't help you.

To the OP: I'd say the climbing in the North Wales is a lot better than Tafroute and the Lakes.

Of the places I've been to:

Red Rocks
The Needles (california)
Lofoten
Yosemite

are all world class in my view.

In reply to Elsier:

A question that will never get a definitive answer, but will always be met with exceedingly passionate ones!

I have been lucky to climb at a fairly wide variety of climbing destinations in the six years I have been climbing. For me, North American crack climbing destinations are good but a bit too repetitive to keep me interested in the long-term.

My world class destinations include (in no particular order):

The Needles - Amazing rock architecture!

Yosemite Valley - As above and so much climbing - poor guidebook lets it down though.

Red Rocks - UK trad style climbing, with bolts added where necessary

Mt Arapiles - Trad heaven?? V. high quality rock, perfect wire placements in abundance, UK trad style, dry weather as standard, can live there for a long time cheaply.

Pabbay & Mingulay - Amazing quality rock, adventurous climbing set on uninhabited and beautiful islands + holiday grade bonus!

Pembroke - Very high quality climbing, LOADS of it, has some variety. The perfect lovechild of sport and trad climbing?

North Wales - Unbelievable rock variety and very historical. I mean with the big G, Cloggy and The Pass on its own it would be pretty world class, but adding in Tremadog, the Lleyn and all the other amazing mountain crags how can it not be!?!?!?

Anyone who says the Peak needs their head looking at in my opinion. Its good, but not world class.

The way I have chosen the destinations are a mix of my personal experience plus the ones I think every trad climber should visit.

Dunc

In reply to Elsier:

Yorkshire Grit

North Wales

Pembroke

Joshua Tree

Needles California

Eldorado Colorado

Yosemite

In reply to John Dunne:

The best trad is indeed on Grit, but as everyone knows, the best Grit is in Staffordshire. You're in denial JD.

In reply to Elsier:

I've climbed many places but unsystematically (i.e near wherever I was sent for work) so many famous places I've not been to. My votes are for Yosemite and Araps

In reply to MikeTS:
… come on folks - deep down everyone knows he best 'trad' is to be found on…

… Stanage, where else…

In reply to Elsier:

Fair Head!

But Gola is great too.

In reply to Elsier:

What is actually so good about Arapiles? I've gotta say; from the photos it doesn't look like much at all.

In reply to Dave 88:


Yes, could someone please show me a photo that makes me want to go there (even not allowing for the fact that it is so far away and expensive to get to and in Australia). It just looks a bit drab and uninspiring in every photo I've seen.

In reply to Elsier:
In the UK, it's very difficult to choose between the major climbing areas. They all have some quality that makes them 'the best'.
From a very limited experience of the rest-of-the world:
Lofoten, amazing scenery, good rock, long granite/gniess routes, but having had a sunny week, I'd go the Cairngorms first.
Tuolumne, amazing scenery, good rock, but holdless slabs and cracks got pretty tedious after a while.
Yosemite, the most impressive crags imagine able, but holdless cracks and hold less slabs without any friction.......zzzzzzzz.
High Sierra, weird combination of desert and Alpine (?) scenery, huge routes that took two or three days to tick. Charlotte Dome is something's else...
Lover's Leap near Tahoe, the juggiest granite outside of West Penwith.
New Hampshire, holdless slabs, holdless cracks again.
Acadia, more granite, ranging from Sennen to Folly Cove in quality.
Shawanagunks, steep and exiting, a bit samey.
Malin Head, a bit like Porth Clais.

In reply to Duncan Campbell - UKC:

Why spoil that list by dissing the grit? Of course its world class: trad names travel to test themselves. It may be small but so what?

In reply to alan moore:

Alan, where in New Hampshire do you rate? I'm heading that way in April. Thanks

In reply to Offwidth:

And are probably often a bit underwhelmed after all the parochial hype.

Grit must be absolutely amazing to have as your local evening cragging, but if you were to list the top 10 world destinations for the visiting climber from another planet, could you honestly and seriously include it?

In reply to Robert Durran: The rock looks like the Jabble kest in morocco except with out the stunning scenery.

In reply to Dave Ferguson:



Hey Gogarth has its fair share of classics in that mode too. Why has nobody mentioned Cloggy or Brownstones?

In reply to Elsier:

Fairhead Co. Antrim. Hundreds of quality routes on quality rock in a beautiful location

In reply to alan moore:

If we are allowed to mention the two venues above as trad even though they can have bolted belays & the occasional bolt, surely we can mention the high mountain granite routes around Chamonix.
Definetly world class, with totally unreadable pitches & lots of hidden features in a unbelievble landscape!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Depends what for... not for reliable climbing conditions for route length etc, but for a long and continuing history of cutting edge climbing yes its top 10, and ditto for quality high-balling and who says we have to limit what is world class to a particular number of venues. Its interesting that parochial hype often seems to be more evident in the critics mind than in reality.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Visually, it doesn't pack the punch of Yosemite Valley or Wadi Rum, lots of quality though. J-Tree is another one that's hard to capture in a photo.

In reply to Elsier:

If the thread were purely about the best sea cliffs in the world, then I haven't come across anywhere to compete with the UK. I hear Tasmania is good, but North America, with all its quality, is strangely devoid of sea cliffs unless someone knows better?

In reply to David Coley:
Whitehorse and Cathedral are the obvious ones. Probably pleasant in April in the sun. I've only been in July and August when the humidity is miserable.
Pathfinder (HVS/E1),Standard Route(VS), thin air(S), toe crack (VS) , still in Saigon (HVS) are all good, 2 star routes. If you climb E1-3 the face climbs on the south buttress of Whitehorse sound really good, and there is some butch crack climbing on Cathedral that is too hard for me. Rainbow slabs are also pleasant for a few routes.
The bigger crags, Cannon and Washington are probably a bit winters in April... You'd have to ask a local.
hope this helps.

In reply to walts4:
Unless belays have all been retro bolted since I went, you' ll find very few bolts if you go cragging in Yosemite or tuolumne. Snake dyke is the only bolted route I've done there....but it's not what you call a sport climb.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

I think it's more a matter of other countries not bothering to develop chossy vegetated cliffs with poor access when they have better rock elsewhere.

Just look at the scandinavian fjords or the cliffs in Tenerife that never really receive any attention but for a few hard-up brits.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

I remember there was a visit by one of the great Polish ice climbers in the 80's, taken out to climb in Scotland on some of the classic ice routes by a current 'star' (might have been Mick Fowler) He took one look at the crag and said 'lets go to the pub' the Brit said 'Don't you have crags like this in the Tatras?' 'Oh yes , he said, but we don't climb on them'.

In reply to Elsier:

1) North Wales
2) North Wales
3) North Wales

Can't think of anywhere else with so much diversity, full range of grades, and easy access.

In reply to scott titt:


can't believe it took nearly 24 hours to get here

+1 for fairhead

In reply to Mr Lopez:


No, it's just a population numbers game.


That might be true for remote areas, but certainly not for the states, especially the west coast. The yanks are quite happy to climb on choss if its local, if Gogarth quality cliffs existed, they would be well known about and developed.

In reply to Nicholas Livesey:

I forgot about Snowdonia! It's been a long time since I've climbed there, would put it above the Lakes though, but not NW Scotland!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Yep, I've guess I've done a route or two on most of the major Snowdonia crags over the years, although admittedly mainly at VS or below. I've also done a number of winter routes and lots of scrambling. And I did say mountain rock, I haven't done enough at Gogarth to have an opinion, ditto N Coast Limestone.

I love Snowdonia, have been a regular visitor for 25 years (making me feel very old!) and there are lots more routes there I want to do; including anything on Cloggy and things like Cenotaph. But I just think the climbing itself that I've done isn't as good as some other places around the world where I've climbed. But Snowdonia is such a central part of British climbing culture now - the books, the films, never ending magazine articles, etc etc that the routes develop an aura which it may be hard to live up to. The variety of rock types in a smallish area is great too - that is something that seems quite special to the UK.

Having said that, I don't get bored by cracks and do love granite.

(Funnily enough, talking of climbing areas, I'm writing this at 11278 mtrs of altitude and - if it wasn't dark - would be able to see Gothenburg and Bohuslan out of the window to my left!)

In reply to Duncan Campbell - UKC:

Sounds like I'll have to plan a trip to Arapiles at some point, as well as a US Road trip.

There are a few places closer to home that I haven't visited yet too. Gogarth, Pabbay, Mingulay, Fair Head and Orco...

In reply to silo:


In that case, I'll probably give Arapiles a miss. I though Jebel Kest was good but not world class but definitely worth a visit for the scenery and cultural aspects, which sound like they are lacking at Arapiles.

In reply to Offwidth:


I do agree that if historical significance is considered a major factor then several UK areas might go up ther pecking order.


OK, if we go for top 100, grit might just about make it, top 1000 and you could make a case for Southern Sandstone (maybe not though....)


Oh come on! Blinkered devotees are always banging on about grit.

In reply to Robert Durran:


The coffee is really nice in the climber cafe in the little town nearest to the cliffs and there are kangaroos at the campground. Together does that make "culture"?

In reply to Jonny2vests:


I thought it didn't come close to living up to the photos or the hype!
Probably great if you are relatively local though (like gritstone!).

In reply to TobyA:

In Australia, yes.

In reply to TobyA:


You get those at the Roaches don't you (or is that wallabies?), without having to go half way round the world?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Wallabies. They were deported from the gardens of Worcester College, Oxford after savaging an American tourist (good reason for keeping wallabies IMO).

In reply to Elsier:

Burbage South. Eternity in a teacup.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I spent a day in Joshua Tree once. Climbed some large lumps of decaying gravel, but the photos looked amazing!

In reply to Offwidth:


Yes, it's fun to climb on but unbelievably overrated. Trad names come because of our navel gazing climbing press and films.

I've met a loads of foreign climbers who have only heard of the grit. Not because it is great but because of the endless number of films, article and websites carping on about how great it is.

Where would you rather spend a day, questing up Saxon, Lucky Strike, Astral Stroll or Shrike or messing around on glorified boulders.

GRITSTONE IS NOT WORLD CLASS!

In reply to TobyA:


Is that long way of saying, 'No I've not done any of the good climbing in North Wales?'

At VS and below North Wales is okay, but in my view the Lakes is much better. At Hard VS and above the climbing is superb.

In reply to John2:


Maybe they could be trained to savage boulderers.

In reply to Dave 88:

It does look like a pile of choss, I'll give you that. However, it isn't choss, the routes are incredible!!

Next time you are in a climbing shop, hunt the guide out, it really is fantastic. I'd go back in a heartbeat.

Dunc

In reply to Jonny2vests:


Surely not if they also had miles of good quality rock like Pembroke Limestone or Lewisian Gneiss locally

.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

So what we're saying then is that Snowdonia IS world class IF you climb in the extreme grades, IF it isn't raining, IF you include sea cliffs on island that is - what? - 20 miles away?, IF you don't do horribly polished routes, and IF you don't do heavily vegetated routes.

Good. Glad that's cleared up then.

In reply to TobyA:


A bit like Patagonia?

In reply to Robert Durran:
>>

It is, as is Dun Mingulay, not many inspiring pictures of that either.

The great thing about Arapiles is the scale and variety of the place, together with the vibe at the campsite which is fantastic. Similar to but probably better than St Govans on a dry bank holiday.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I thought the same, the rock doesn't look great in pictures. I went recently and it was ace, you can climb through some really incredible ground on lower grade routes and the gear is very bomber nuts with no risk of them coming out as you climb above.

Saying that, i think Yosemite is better. Bigger routes and better scenery, but also many smaller routes for rest days. Many people who haven't been think of yosemite as just el cap and half dome, but there is tones more!

In reply to TobyA:


Hard VS isn't in the extreme grades and is hardly a challenging grade in 2014. It's not like there are many world class low grade routes in Yosemite or the Needles.


There aren't many days in North Wales where there is no dry rock.


It's only a 40 minutes drive to Gogarth. If you'd been you'd know that it is well worth it.


I can't think of any route in North Wales that is so polished that it detracts from the climbing. It isn't Stoney.


Why would you climb heavily vegetated routes? They're normally heavily vegetated for a reason. Which routes do you mean by the way?


Whilst I agree that on their own none of the crags/climbs in North Wales are world class as a whole package it is.

Sound like you're bitter because you've spent too much time on poxy 30m outcrops near Helsinki and less time questing at Cloggy or getting scared silly on the Main Cliff.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


I've climbed in many of the areas mentioned in this thread, and I reckon actually grit is world class. The moves are just really cool, for pure movement pleasure (as opposed to big cliff adventure) only Font comes close. Font is as trad as it gets of course!

Pondering whether to put a winky smiley in here or not.

Yosemite is both very good, and crap. Some of the best routes I've ever done have been in the Valley, but also some of the worst. No votes for Squamish?

And what of those other areas which may not be totally world class but can offer world class experiences? This may be another thread entirely.

Just moving back to The Peak after 6 months in N Wales, which has been great, but give me the glorified boulders, or just plain boulders anytime. Can't wait!

Now if you'd used The Cable Guy, Pool of Bethesda and Rockatrocity, you might have had a compelling argument.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Strange thing to say.....what would you like it to look like?

I had renewed appreciation for Araps after a week there in 2007, by which time i'd racked up lots of visits to British and Euro crags and could confirm that yes it is world class.

The rock is fairly unique, being featured sandstone with a bullet hard surface.

Protection is plentiful, and bolts few and far between.

There is a massive concentration of routes (2,000+) within walking distance of the campsite, across the grade spectrum and single or multi pitches.

Hard climbers will travel across the world to tick this one route:

http://www.climbandmore.com/upload/adidas_Mayan_PunksinTheGym__RichCrowder3...

the first 8b+

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Are you getting grumpy Tom? You know, other opinions are available.

30 mtrs is big near Helsinki BTW and hence "classic", the "poxy" ones are sub 10 mtrs.

In reply to alan moore:

That's a bit harsh but I wouldn't say Joshua Tree is world class just for the climbing. It is an amazing environment though and definitely worth a visit. Tahquitz / Suicide Rocks though, that's world class trad (and less than an hour from J-Tree).

I loved Arapiles and I'd go back given the opportunity, but for me South Africa has the edge over Australia as a world venue. Table Mountain has perfect rock, massive exposure, good pro (mostly) and great climate and views. The Cederberg crags are pretty amazing too.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Oh come come. Some great lines, excellent climbing - a world class single pitch cragging destination. The setting is of course exceptional.


But SA is a violent crime-ridden hellhole!

In reply to Robert Durran:



This begins to sound like prejudice! Not sure how you can be so certain about somewhere you've never been.
The use of the word mediocre when describing Mount Arapiles isn't appropriate, but it is for my climbing ability. In fact it flatters me. I wouldn't presume to comment on the quality of the routes above Grade 18 at The Mount because I haven't done them, but for anyone climbing below UK E-grades I still haven't found anywhere better.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Has no one told you SHOUTING on web forums makes you look silly? I'll trust travelled old hands and the talented from around the world who know stuff over a noisy whippersnapper anyday. Grit is world class ( even if it wouldnt be if it was in the middle of nowhere)

In reply to Robert Durran

The noise is becuase its the most climbed rock in the UK, ie frequency, not volume.

In reply to Dave Garnett

How about a list of the things you enjoyed most at Tahquitz / Suicide to get this back on track?

In reply to seankenny:

Sure. I hated it so much I lived there for three years. Not heard too many people refer to the Cape as a hellhole but maybe you don't like sunshine, beaches, mountains and some of the most interesting wildlife on the planet. And violent crime isn't exactly unknown in SoCal.

Anyway, I thought we were talking about the climbing. Comparing Joshua Tree to Table Mountain is like comparing Burbage to Cloggy.

In reply to Offwidth:


Whatever. Gritstone is not world class. If it wasn't situated between Manchester and Sheffield no one would have ever heard of it.

Besides what does a talentless bumbly know about world class climbing?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


Obviously not very much, given the drivel you are posting.

In reply to Offwidth:

I guess it's the whole package; it's a beautiful place (the area as a whole is a bit less beautiful since the fires, admittedly, but that doesn't affect the climbing) and Tahquitz is a proper mountain with variety of big, compact buttresses facing in different directions each with its own character. The rock is solid, there are routes of all grades and types and there is a whole history of cutting edge ascents by all the big names from the 1930s onwards. It's multipitch with strong features, ledges, overhangs, interlinked pitches and stances. The gear (in my admittedly limited experience) is solid and they manage to combine a strong trad ethic with the occasional pragmatic bolt without the sky falling in.

The climate is pretty much perfect, without being boring, the locals are friendly and there is a nice local climbing culture. And it smells nice.

In reply to Elsier:

This thread does a great job in highlighting the obvious fallacy that size is everything and length is more important than quality. One would have hoped that Dark Ages attitude would have died out along with "climbing is good training for the greater ranges"....

In reply to Fiend:


Agreed. I usually find that people who diss Gritstone and Granite have usually been spanked by it

So, back to the OP:

North wales & Pembroke
Yorkshire and Peak Grit
Yosemite
Joshua Tree

E

In reply to Fiend:

Up to a point, but good long route is more memorable than a good short one, and there is a minimum below which size does matter.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


agreed. there is gritstone in north wales, but it rarely gets climbed because its in the middle of nowhere.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


It's over 20 years since I did Strapiombante and the Vaucher route on the Aig du Peigne. One is more memorable than the other and it has nothing to do with length.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I've only been to Jo'burg, and climbed at Waterval Boven. The countryside was great but SA was much, much less than the sum of its parts, and I'd never return. A colleague of mine said: "Here, it's not a question of if you get raped, it's a question of when." Combined with the razor wire, the all-pervasive fear, the lack of street life (mall anyone?), the vast no-go areas, I was rather put off.

Perhaps I'm just a lilly-livered European.




But it's perfectly possible to compare to Burbage to Cloggy, and to like both of them. Next you'll be telling me that bits of Bach or Chopin are crap cos they're over in two or three minutes.

I'm another one who was completely underwhelmed by Joshua Tree (except Equinox, which is brilliant). I thought there was a lot of rubbish climbing, and a lot of wandering round trying to find the good stuff. Nice landscape, but much more impressive places to go in the states, with much better climbing. I get the impression it's only so popular because of it's proximity to LA, and that historically it was where everyone went in the winter. With places like Bishop so well developed now, I'd definitely recomend going elsewhere.

Best trad in the world? Pembroke, Indian Creek, South Africa.

In reply to seankenny:
Not really, that's Joburg. Most of Cape Town isn't like that, although you need to keep your wits about you. You get used to it.


I did, and I do. I just wouldn't say Burbage is world class. I'm not sure Cloggy is either for all its grandeur and history.

I like Joshua Tree too, it's an amazing place. It just doesn't, for me, quite make the top table for the quality of its climbing in isolation. Not if you compare it to Table Mountain or Arapiles or Tahquitz* or Val di Mello or Cornish granite or Snowdonia. All hopelessly subjective, obviously.

If you like big boulders, have you been to Mount Woodson? Similar scale, a million problems/routes, nicer rock.

* And I'm not dissing Yosemite, it's just that, inexplicably, I've never been!

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Appreciated. Still, it's a big world, and I feel no need to get used to SA.



Cloggy over-rated? Tsk tsk, shame on you, etc etc blah blah blah

As for Burbage, could we say it's a contender (or not) for "world class after work crag". After all, different crags suit different times of day, week and life.



Completely subjective - Josh beats Cornwall for me, but hey, why is this a problem? Just means you have to go to both



No, but I'd like to if I was in the area.

In reply to Elsier: My nominations are:

Mingulay/Pabbay - stunning rock, commiting climbing and amazing location

Arapiles - to all the doubters who have never been, it is really worth it as a perfect cragging venue

Cedarberg, South Africa - up there with Arapiles for a world class crag, but sooo much quieter. We didn't meet another climber in the 2 weeks we were there

North Wales (in a dry spell) - for sheer variety of rock in a relatively small area I've never known anywhere better

In reply to Elsier:
I loved the desert at J Tree, but was totally underwhelmed by the climbing. I think a lot may be simply down to lack of familiarity. Loads of teams I've met have absolutely raved about the place, I don't get it, but it's probably me.
Again, a totally irrational and subjective choice for best trad for me would be High Tor in the E1 to E5 range.

In reply to shantaram:


Actually, temporarily leaving aside exactly how good the best of the best routes are, I'd be interested to know what other areas compete with North Wales for variety of climbable rock types and climbing styles. I'm assuming that there are some, but I can't think of them off the top of my head...

In reply to shantaram:

>> Cedarberg, South Africa - up there with Arapiles for a world class crag, but sooo much quieter. We didn't meet another climber in the 2 weeks we were there

It's certainly up there. Celestial Journey and Energy Crisis are two of the most memorable routes I've ever done.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Yeah, but Dave, you've never done Ramshaw Crack!

jcm

In reply to Dave 88:


The climbing is excellent. I think looking at the photos posted, you simply don't have the sense of scale in the photos. You can camp at the bottom and have enough climbing for a month or more, all within walking distance. There is climbing at just about every grade, single pitch, multipitch, trad, bolted, overhanging, slabs, juggy, crimpy, you name it!

A lot of the routes take great lines, weaving their way through really unlikely looking territory, under slabs, though little caves, across lips...

You get all of that, and the scent of eucalyptus in the air, the sound of the Australian magpies, a warbling whooping stream of sound, then look down to see a herd of kangaroos leaping 6 foot fences below. Arapiles rises up above the plane like a ship at sea, the flat horizon all around you, so whereever you look the view is amazing. Pink parrots hop on the ground in the campsite, and most people who are there are climbers, installed for the season, with 3 piece suites outside their tents! It's pretty magical!

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/images/stories/large/2010/08/17/Travel_Mt%2...

http://nga.gov.au/exhibition/turnertomonet/Images/LRG/62487.jpg

http://openspaces.smugmug.com/Rockclimbing/Arapiles/i-Cm3w8N8/0/L/arapiles3...

In reply to Robert Durran:

Wallaby:
http://tinyurl.com/ofbbprr

Kangeroo

http://tinyurl.com/pdykvwz

Notice the difference?

In reply to Enty:


I'm not slagging it off. I really enjoy climbing on Gritstone (Granite is one of my favorite rock types) I'm just fully aware that it isn't world class climbing.

To Fiend: It's nothing to do with size. Pembroke is tiny by world standards, but is world class for sure.



Not been. But have heard lots of bad things. Sounds like the sort of Puntersville Offwidth would love.

What about Red Rocks?

In reply to Rog Wilko:



No. I accept that the climbing at Arapiles is exceptional and quite probably worldclass - you can't all be talking bollocks! My point is that it always looks pretty mediocre in photos; presumably it just isn't very photogienic. Personally, I like photos to inspire me, especially to fly half way round the world to a country I have minimal interest in otherwise when there are so many other brilliant places to go in interesting countries much closer and more cheaply.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You're probably right, although all those short gritstone things just merge into one after a while...

In reply to GDes:


Spot on. Like Gritstone and Sheffield - brilliant as local cragging but not worth flying the Atlantic for unless for a quick sample en route to greater things.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Some of it may only be only one pitch high, but look at the width!

In reply to tlm:



Looks like a pile of choss. Are you actually trying to confirm my "prejudices".

In reply to Robert Durran:

No - that's all pretty firm stuff! It's great texture, with all sorts of lovely features for holds... (I know you secretly want to go). AND we got to meet an echidna!

Maybe you need video?

http://tinyurl.com/nzoq5pj

In reply to Elsier:

Western Cape, South Africa

Great rock
Great routes - mountain and crags
Great weather
Great scenery
Great people
Great for non climbing things too eg wild life, walking, sailing, diving, eating and drinking (great wine)
Also they drive on the left and speak English!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I was massively underwhelmed by Red Rocks on my first visit (almost as much as by Joshua Tree on the same trip). My second visit was only two days waiting for a flight and too trashed by Utah cracks to do more than a bit of sport (actually pretty good), but I did buy the new guide book (2008) and now I'm massively psyched to go back. The previous guide seemed designed to put you off (like far to many US ones!).

I suspect it might be a strong contender for The List.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I do like JT but Red Rocks is better. JT is for granite fans really; the slabs are desperate but the cracks and face climbs more Ok. Rock quality can be an issue at times but thats the same anywhere in the US away from classics.

I've just calculated I hadnt started climbing in earnest until I was older than you: better an old bumbly who got noisy after some proper mileage than a young one shooting from the hip from the start eh Tom?

In reply to Offwidth:


Right whatever. I've been climbing properly for ten years. I might be young but I think it is unfair to call me inexperienced.

To Robert Durran. The multi pitch stuff at Red Rocks in Black Velvet Canyon is brilliant. Ten pitch sandstone facey crack climbs, with bolts when it's scary. What's not to like? Some of the stuff by Levitation 29 looks brilliant too. Apart from Yosemite it is the only area I visited that would warrant a return trip in it's own right. Those I suppose the High Serria does too, but that is quite a big area.

Tom

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I did that Dream of Turkeys thing; a fun day out but the easy bits turned into the hard bits at E2 and the hard bits turned into amusing 6b+ if you see what I mean - a brilliant E5 neutered by bolts. I hate that sort of contrived bollocks. Totally unmemorable.


A lot!


Yes!

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


You should have capped that up. It would have been more persausive that way.



I did one of those sort of routes and it was okay. Better than a day in the office, but not the best day's climbing I've ever had. Still, Red Rocks is a cool venue, without a doubt.

In reply to Arapiles sales team:

Alrite, I'm guessing the Arapiles might just be one I'll have to take everyone's word for. Everyone seems to rave about it except me and Robert...and we've never been. Guess I'll just have to go for it one day despite my reservations. You can't all be wrong! Unless this is some massive elaborate sandbag...

In reply to Dave 88:

It was brutally hot when I went but I still enjoyed it. I could see the rock not being to every ones taste though - or at least it takes some time to get used to.

I didn't also have the most appropriate gear for the job - in that sense its very British; I felt double ropes and plenty of long floppy quickdraws, loads of wires etc. I had my mate's mainly sport climbing rack (1 rope, 12 quickdraws all medium fat petzl tapes, 1 set of nuts and some very old cams on short tapes!) and felt it was hard to protect some routes I did as well as I would have normally. Add in the steepness (not my thing really) even the routes I did around VS felt very "go-ey".

Didn't seem much else to in the area besides climb though. Grampians are an hour or so away and my Aussie mate said "better", but less trad I suppose.

In reply to Elsier:

Arapiles is perfect low level cragging - in the Pembroke mould - steep and juggy with the best wire placements you could ask for. It is definitely worth a visit and routes like Kachoong, Skink, Tannin, Watchtower Crack etc are all great fun. It's not quite up there with grand mountain venues like Yosemite, Lofoten, Swiss Alps, Wadi Rum etc but they are all much scenic and bigger and are all about the long routes and stunning scenery. If you want short 1-3 pitch, technical routes on great rock, Arapiles fits the bill....

In reply to Elsier:

PS The rock is a lot better than it looks in those photos - it's just very juggy and featured, not a loose hold in sight on the classic routes...

In reply to Robert Durran:



OK Robert, truce! This just shows again how easy it is to misunderstand someone on these forums.
I would be the first to accept that the Wimmera isn't the Alps or Sierra Nevada, and that the outlook from The Mount is pretty flat. But was the OP talking about the climbing or the surroundings? Personally, the surroundings of climbing venues is important to me which is why I much prefer Provence to the Costas.
But I challenge you to not enjoy a trip to Arapiles. tlm above described the ambience pretty well. The bird and animal life is just a constant source of joy, as is the flora if you're there in the springtime. It's almost worth going to Oz just to hear a gang of kookaburras in the twilight. I've only been to USA once but was very disappointed with the wildlife.
It is a long trip, but I'm not sure it would cost you any more than going to Yosemite. We would probably never have gone unless we'd had a daughter living in Natimuk; as a result we've been there on 5 trips and done over 50 routes there and not a dud yet.
Anyway, I see from your profile there's lots of time left for you, and it's a great place to go in your dotage (unlike, I suspect, Yosemite).

PS http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=645

In reply to Elsier:

Anyone mentioned Lundy yet?

In reply to Robert Durran:


Araps is a bit weird. You approach through flat land in all directions. It looks like nothing much until you get up into the crags and start exploring and then you wonder whether you should stock up on excellent wine and beer and spend a season camped there.

In reply to Carless:

Yes Lundy for the total island experience comes near the top of my list.
Other contenders are Yosemite and Fairhead for me.

In reply to MikeTS:


Yes, you know how British crags look huge from a distance and get smaller as you approach. With The Mount it's the other way round.
BTW, that "excellent" only applies to the wine, doesn't it?

In reply to Carless:

Ah..... Lundy!!!!

sun bathed golden glowing granite; seals poking their noses nosily up out the turquoise sea to try to work out what you are doing; silence, broken by the wind in the sea pinks and the bleating of soay sheep; a whole new routine of unlocked doors, wandering chickens, walking to the crag each morning, and falling into bed, salt glazed and full of sun.

In reply to tlm:

http://openspaces.smugmug.com/Rockclimbing/Arapiles/i-Cm3w8N8/0/L/arapiles3...

Tim, I think this picture needs a caption. If there's such a thing as a world class Diff (and why not) this is it. It's Tiptoe Ridge, 5 pitches of joy which I'm saving for later.

In reply to Rog Wilko:



yes

but you can buy imported beers at the pub

In reply to MikeTS:

I thought they had their own brewery, well it did the last time I was there!

In reply to Carless:

Gogarth is an amusing suggestion but Lundy is just ridiculous

In reply to Rog Wilko:


Ok, I might have to take up that challenge sometime, but there are so many other places on my list........


Hopefully that means leaving it for another twenty years or so then!

In reply to Robert Durran:

You just haven't done the right Lundy routes yet

In reply to Elsier:

The best trad climbing in the world?...where ever me and my trad rack are. easy.

In reply to Elsier:
Gola Island !!
Really? care to expand. Genuinely interested, as had me chance whilst resident in the ROI and being lazy, shy, unadventurous... et al... missed it. = regret.
that good an adventure and climbing?

In reply to Carless:


I had a trip once. Very nice climbing but not too much special about the place. I'd go back, but not in a hurry.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Blimy, Robert! You're being very negative on this thread - Arapiles chossey (even though you've never been there), Lundy not special, even though you've only been once!

What DOES it take to impress you???

In reply to ali_mac:

Ok well maybe best trad in the world is stretching it a bit for Gola, but I thought is was a great place, really lovely setting, and fab rock and routes. I'm sure it will be eclipsed by the outer hebrides (haven't been there yet) but it's just lovely climbing in a setting that feels remote and adventurous.

In reply to tlm:




Ratho quarry?

In reply to Elsier:

thanks for the considered answer and honesty in stating 'best is stretching it a bit'. I will add it to the bucket list along with fair head whilst in the area. As an all in experience it is to be had on your say so.
I did get to experience Killybegs whilst there in the ROI and that was pretty special in consideration of the unspoilt nature of the place. There's a hatchery for mussels there, about the size of a tennis court, crammed with 1/8" baby mussels. To walk across bare foot would have shreaded the feet. But I don't suppose that has anything to do with the best place to climb trad. Just added to the ambiance.

In reply to tlm:


No. I just said the photos always make it look chossy and uninspiring. I accept that they are misleading.


Yes. A rather scruffy little tourist trap as island destinations go (some good climbing though).


Many, many, places impress and inspire me both in the UK and abroad.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Which ones?

In reply to Elsier:

Clue: They'll have to be Scottish, else he'll immediately dismiss them.

In reply to tlm:


UK: Pembroke, most places in far NW Scotland, Lewis, Mingulay/Pabbay, many mountain crags (eg Beinn Eighe, Shelter Stone, Carnmore, Dubh Loch, even Cloggy)

Abroad: Utah (Indian Creek/Moab area), Sardinia, Wadi Rum, Arctic Norway.

I could go on.......in fact very easily inspired and impressed.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Lofoten only? Or elsewhere?

In reply to seankenny:

I'd say elsewhere... Lofoten is great, other places just are better .

In reply to Robert Durran:

I love Pembroke...

In reply to seankenny:


Both, but mostly "elsewhere" now.

In reply to tlm:


So do I. Arguably the UK's only candidate for "world class" status south of the border

In reply to Robert Durran:

Care to elaborate on "elsewhere"?

In reply to Robert Durran:


Does Cornwall not make it past your stringent criteria then?

I find it hard to pin my favourite places down - there's so much that is great out there.

In reply to seankenny:

I would not... too crowded ;p

In reply to tlm:


Barely climbed there (I must sometime), so not really in a position to say, but, if it's as overhyped as Lundy, then certainly not.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Gulp! Thanks Robert

In reply to TobyA:


Yes, a shame, since there's more good climbing and a fantastic traverse of the mountain after the bolt belays end.

In reply to Robert Durran:

For some adventure, try the routes on W or NW walls of Eidetinden. No bolts and accordin' to my friend, the topo is more of a guidance than actual route description.

In reply to HeMa:


Already on the list......

In reply to HeMa:

Is Tromso the nearest airport?

In reply to seankenny:

Narvik, but cheapish flights from the UK with Norwegian go to Tromso. Didn't I email you about the area not so long ago Sean?

In reply to seankenny:


Narvik/Harstad airport is two hours or so from The main climbing areas in Lofoten and from the Eidfjord/Stetind areas on the mainland. Tromso quite a bit further north.

In reply to Elsier:

High Exposure in the Gunks is often quoted as the best 5.7 (~VS) in the world, and I was very impressed. The Gunks are really beautiful and the climbs very steep for their grades which I personally really like

In reply to alps_p:

Thanks for pointing that out - I must go. When is the best time of year for the Gunks?

In reply to Rog Wilko:

spring and autumn I'd imagine, possibly summer if it's not too hot. I did most of my climbing there in the spring

In reply to TobyA:

Yes you did. I'm clearly still a bit confused about where everything is!

In reply to seankenny:

Eidetind (Robert's photos) is about 6 kms from Stetind - both are an hour's drive west from Narvik. Both are in this guide http://www.cordee.co.uk/Stetind-Andamp%3B-Narvik%3A-Dancing-on-the-Devil%27...

Some pics of Eidetind from last summer on my blog http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.fi/2013/09/rock-climbing-in-arctic-norway...