UKC

Connected to the Dartmoor thread but I thought it worth raising separately.

As 16 year olds backpacking all over the place we had a few occasions of being moved on or charged. We always pitched late, high up, well out of the way etc.

A couple of times we squared up if people were aggressive towards us and on one occasion it became physical when a game keeper started knocking my mates tent down.

I was thinking about the act of defiance, refusing to move and the occasions where this is ok and the right thing to do....ultimately if you refuse what can someone actually do up high on a hill somewhere remote!?

In reply to abr1966:

Well, they could murder you and bury you in the wilderness? You could have a WWE wrestling match? Pistols at dawn?

I don't really see what there is to gain from escalating a physical confrontation. Just pack up, move on, and pitch somewhere else.

In reply to abr1966:

"What can someone actually up high on a hill somewhere remote?" is the question that would be spinning around my head as I lay awake in the dark of the tent, alone, high up, on a remote hill, on the land of an angry gun-toting game keeper/farmer with enough [insert animal here] to get rid of any evidence...

Dunno about you but I couldn't sleep soundly after any altercation like that and not moving on!

In reply to abr1966:

Easy one to answer.

It’s never ok and the right thing to do.

In reply to abr1966:

I think it would move from being a civil offence to being a Criminal offence, and the Police could be called.

I wonder how much difference the age of 16 would make nowadays.

I assume you are 56, so similar to me, back when I was 16, I always considered an "adult" may ultimately use force, clip round the ear, but I suspect a 16 year old now would be more confident in telling you to keep your hands off them, or the police 🚨 would be having serious words with them.

In reply to abr1966:

I went touring around the Gobi desert in an old Range Rover Classic when I was a lad.

This place was very remote. Could easily have been 100 miles away from another living soul. And that living soul would be a small family 100 miles away form the next family. Very remote.

But we weren't alone.

Woke up hearing a noise.

I stuck my head out the tent.

Saw a bloke approaching the car with a shovel over his shoulder.

He clocked me, turned around and walked away.

Never did know what he was after, and whilst there was no confrontation it scared the crap out of me. I don't think I selt again that night.

He probably thought it was an abandoned car and wanted to salvage bits, but you really don't want confrontation in the wilderness. 

In reply to Godwin:

I think context is important....the occasion I referred to was somewhere toward Great Shunner fell on a night of really foul weather. The bloke was immediately hostile, hence the altercation....we were also confident 16 year olds so not intimidated by him 

The point I was thinking about was to do with people on Dartmoor continuing to camp and how this would play out if lots of people continued to....the Kinder trespass was also met with hostility from landowners/gamekeepers etc during that period of time but standing collectively and defiantly paid dividends ..

In reply to abr1966:

I would go for being as obstructive as possible but with absolutely no violence or aggression. 

In reply to abr1966:

An interesting one as just walking over Dartmoor would not (in the main) be civil trespass as most of Dartmoor is CROW land, but to wild camp in England, Wales and Northern Ireland you do need the landowners consent, it will fall under the trespass laws unless stated differently.

Civil Trespass is just essentially get off my land, so if you have not damaged, taken something, or it's on land which has further protection such as Railtrack, Military, etc all the owner or representative can do is ask you to leave. 

If you then refuse or then return it can become Aggravated Trespass, which is a criminal offence and you can be arrested for that. Again if the owner can prove that you have damaged something, more likely if you were camping in a crop field or using stones off a wall for a campfire, you could get charged with criminal damage. 

I have spent too much time trespassing in derelict buildings and structures over the years, so coming equipped can also be an option, but very unlikely wild camping as you can justify the Swiss Army camping knife. In the main it is the land owner's representatives who are the most aggressive, the land owner you can talk to and the police even if they may not be clear of the laws initially will find out and often have fallen in my favour of just civil trespass.

I suppose it all comes down to common sense, like it always has. If you are low key you will slip under the radar. If it is a large event you do ask the landowner, if you are asked to move on fair enough try and have a chat, but if the owner is adamant don't get arsey and move on, it saves repercussions for other people.

In reply to abr1966:

Whereabouts on Great Shunner were you? The Pennine Way traverses over the top but there are out-of-the-way places. I camped once a way above Hardraw Force then skinny dipped in the pool at the bottom (years before that Costner bloke did it) - before anyone else was up and about.

In reply to Lankyman:

I can't remember....I do remember that it was dark and raining heavily. As mentioned in the initial post we had moved on previously if required to but on this occasion there was no polite stuff and the bloke was aggressive.....and there is a time and place to stand up to that kind of stuff. Oddly enough I've never been up it since....must put it in my 2023 list!

In reply to abr1966:

I have mentioned on here Nick Hayes book Trespass and I think there is a UKC article about it. I would highly recommend anyone who has an interest in the countryside read it, it is a beautifully written book, and doubly so if you have an interest in access.
It has totally altered how I look at the landscape and how think about access issues. Also it has altered my "feelings" when I do stray off the path. 

Ultimately this is a political issue, but it is also a sociological* issue about  the British peoples relationship with land ownership, and how the large landowning classes have managed to conflate the millions of acres we are denied access to, with our tiny square of a garden.

People in certain Northern European countries have a totally different conception of land ownership and access.

Read da book.

*not sure if I have the correct ology there.

In reply to Godwin:

Thanks....will do..

In reply to abr1966:

Can I recommend a book on the subject?

Nick Hayes

The Book of Trespass: Crossing the Lines that Divide Us

It's very good and eggs on the rightful anger that one "could" feel towards landowners.

I have very little sympathy with the Hedge fund manager.

In reply to Godwin:

I've been given the Hayes 'Trespass' book for Christmas. I'm scared to read it in case it turns me into an even more angry, mouth-foaming trespasser than I already am.

In reply to althesin:

Yes, I've read that. Consistently interesting. I enjoyed the chapter where he met the rich land owning MP. He thought he'd be able to reason with him, but came up against a brick wall.

In reply to Lankyman:

Read it, you have 9 weeks, then I will be wanting a walk with you and testing you on what you have learnt.

In reply to Godwin: the age of 16, even 17 would make a great deal of difference. All Police forces in the land wish to divert young people from Court ( Ronnie Flanagan Report). The litmus test is ‘admission’ I.e admitting you have camped but not admitting aggravated trespass or similar . I suspect a Dartmoor Police Inspector is shaking his/ her head at this ruling thinking ‘haven’t we got enough to do?’ There’s unlikely to be a criminal record either unless a Public Order Offence ensued through a dispute that would affect ‘somebody passing of reasonable mind’ . I did wonder if bivvying falls under camping? It’s an appalling ruling worthy of another mass trespass 

In reply to abr1966:

Only time we had an issue was in our early 20"s. A popular wild camping spot in the Peak District. 2 NT rangers found 10 of us setting up for the night and told us to move on. They moved on, we didn't and there were no hard feelings. 

In reply to Lankyman:

Read it and then order "Ecodefense, a Field Guide to Monkeywrenching" by Dave Foreman and Edward Abbey and read that. I guarantee you will be inspired to great deeds.

In reply to steveboote:

This.

And this.

In reply to abr1966:

Alone on a hill and asked to move on???

Move on and the next day report to the police that you were threatened with a gun. 

Shooting estates don't like their gun licences being put under scrutiny.

Apparently.

In reply to Kalna_kaza:

Indeed. A few years ago I was setting off for a run by Balsporran when a Defender flew past me and skidded to a halt by an elderly couple. With them were two elderly, arthritic German Shepherd Dogs paddling in the river 100m from the railway crossing. A young man jumped out and launched into a foul-mouthed tirade about out of control dogs killing his sheep. The couple kept their calm, explained there wasn’t a sheep visible in any direction and showed the dogs were both under control and barely able to walk never mind run. This only enraged our little soldier who declared he was off to get his gun and shoot the dogs before jumping into the Defender and speeding off. The couple made their way back to the car and I noted the reg before calling the police on my return. 

In reply to 65:

I read a bit of Abbey many years ago when I was hiking and camping in the deserts in Utah. I'm thinking we need more protests like the ones in the Lakes a few years ago when places like Grizedale Forest were threatened with sale to the private sector.

In reply to Lankyman:

A stark reminder - The Forestry Commission is one of the few assets left. They will probably be back for a landgrab soon. Stay alert.   

In reply to Kalna_kaza:

Yeah a shotgun licence is a very fragile thing.

In reply to abr1966:

Here's the Nick Hayes Trespass article mentioned in the thread:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/features/author_nick_hayes_on_trespa...