UKC

My wife has just had a conversation with a well known Lakeland climber noted for his bias for Langdale.

The question, is Dow crag better than any crag in Langdale ?

I think the answer is probably yes.

It would be if it wasn’t so bloody cold there...

Better than Gimmer?

Better than Pavey?

It's a bit better than White Ghyll, but that's as far as it goes

No.

Usually quieter, and certainly much colder. Take plenty of warm clothing.

No

More importantly, who?

I agree (in my experience).

With the other thread on forgettable 3 star classics in mind, I've always found Gimmer, KG apart, strangely bland and unmemorable. I prefer Pavey but it's a bit too broken for my liking. Dow, on the other hand, has great and clean rock everywhere I've been on it, has wonderful multi pitch diffs, the peerless Eliminate A, and immaculate single pitch extremes. So I would vote for Dow

Didn't Wainwright say that the whole Southern Lakes were "a little piece of Heaven fallen onto the earth"?

The Langdale crags and Dow have all felt like that to me.

Equally heavenly in my opinion

Only Gimmer and Pavey would rank in the same division, I'd say.  Pavey, whilst having some really good climbs, for the most part has the drawback of its bitty-ness i.e. lack of long continuous routes. Gimmer is overall of cleaner rock and much of it has the sun but it perhaps lacks the mountain feel of Dow. What’s more I find the routes on the sunny side good but a bit samey (with notable exceptions) so yes, for me Dow wins it for its variety of longer routes of all grades and its mountain feel, an added attraction being ease of access.

I don't think you need too many more clues

I don't think he was referring to the climbing but it got me thinking.

His actual quip was that Torver and Coniston do not compare well with Langdale as a place to live.

For me. 

This thread may decide which has the best climbing .

Coniston is better as a base for mountain biking and watersports, not that the lake bothers me apart from having to drive round the thing.

Coniston is as good for mountain walking and better for short walks.

Coniston has a really good chippy and better food  shops.

I don't have any other choice where to live unless we get divorced, it was part of the deal 38 years ago.

I hardly ever climb on Dow nowadays still got stuff to do in Langdale.

I think yes, but only by a whisker.

As has already been established, we're asking if it's better than both Pavey and Gimmer. Pavey has the best rock of all 3, but it's the one with the most ledges and veg. And stuck sheep. I think Gimmer has lots of the very best routes, and the cleanest, sunniest, most pleasant character, but it's really a small set of excellent routes - the best of which are only 1 or 2 pitches. And it's not got the hard routes, which even if you can't climb them, are great to look at, giving a crag more gravitas and swagger. The situations high on the West face are sublime - Gimmer is very hard to beat.

But Dow is just that big bigger - it's got the real bottom-to-top multipitch classics like Eliminate A and C Ordinary. It's got the brilliant single pitches like Pink Panther, Leopard's Crawl, and the wall with the E4s. And it's got some hard stuff too, all on a big mountain crag with an amenable walk-in. It might be nicer if it faced south, but then there are days when the shade (without the muck of a north-facer) is a blessing.

I can't wait til it's time to go climbing on Dow again (although I might have to look at some of the harder routes now I've done the stuff in my comfort zone a couple of times).

Dow because it's quicker to get to from the south and you're more likely to get parked at the sort of time I tend to show up!

It better be better Rick You kept drip feeding Me and Dave Alexandar a tick list through the 90's...

We have a hut in Coniston but I nearly always head for Langdale.  I've only ever once been warm on Dow.

There is some good advice in the guide on when to get the best conditions on Dow.

Al is from farming stock so is always  up early, ideal on an east facing crag.

Edit. Though I have had a lot of good evenings up there as well.

Great Central Route, in high summer, does catch the sun. I even had to take my fleece off.

On the other hand it's absolutely nails for HVS!

I think Dow tests technique more than most crags in Langdale . You cannot often just pull harder.

I did Eliminate A in late May, we got to the crag fairly early but there were already 2 slowish teams on it. So did Murray's and then came back to Eliminate A.

My log notes that as well as good timing, the sun had gone off the face by then so at least it wasn't as sweaty.

So, not always cold. The trick with Dow is surely to pick your times.

what? you mean when compared with the magnificent Shelter Crag on Crinkle Crags?

Yes - Dow trumps anything in Langdale, its just less user friendly, which isn't a bad thing.

Gimmer is best. There is something special about our few, south-facing mountain crags. 

Ive only done the easier routes on both. North west Arête is better than Eliminate A for pure quality. Murray's is fantastic but but no better than the combined wandering of the alphabet routes. 

On Gimmer I have F, Kipling and Whitts End to return for. On Dow, what's next, Leopards Crawl?

The outlook from Gimmer, over the middle-earth Langdale is better than the rocky hole of Goats Water.

It's a close thing mind, Dow is pretty good!

It really isn't. Combined with kipling groove it is. 

A brilliant pitch - but a total sandbag! Not as bad as Tarkus (E2 5c) though. 

Langdale any day of the week, sure doesn't have the vastness but there's a lot more in Langdale!

Gimmer, Pavey, Bowfell, Flat Crags, Neckband, White Ghyll, Shelter Crags and Raven just to mention a few!

Plus good pubs and easier to get to from Kendal! 

I've kept out of this thread so far, mostly because I've been preoccupied elsewhere, but have enjoyed reading it.

Your post in particular sparked my attention, mostly because we did Tarkus last year on recommendation/warning from Mark Glaister, who is writing the forthcoming Lake District Rockfax Guide. He simply said "let me know what you think", which given his tone of voice + raised eyebrow indicated that we were going to be in for a ride. My logbook entry says it all:

"Start is wildly bold for E1, and pretty damn bold for E2. Soft E3 or hard E2, either way you’d be hitting the ground from a good way up if you blew it"

As for the rest of the debate, I always find judging one crag's merits vs. another difficult, mostly because they're all unique. That said, Dow has some cracking pitches: Isengard (HVS 5b)/Samba Pa Ti (E2 5b), Holocaust (E4 6a), and Tumble (E4 6a) in particular (although the latter two are quite short). I think the best routes I've done at Pavey are The Bracken-Clock (E2 5c), Cruel Sister (E3 5c), and Fallen Angel (E4 6a). Originally my vote was going to go with Pavey, but thinking back to those routes at Dow I defy anyone to find a better quality pitch - at least as far as climbing is concerned - than Tumble...other than perhaps Air on a Bowstring (E3 5c)...

Which brings us round full circle. I have no idea which is best: they're all amazing

Didn't your teachers tell you to always read the question?

On tarkus, rob, why did you not take a 3 mm sling for the micro thread just before the crux. 

Common knowledge amongst the locals

Good to hear you found Tarkus hard. I backed off it when I was 19 and barely leading E1. 

I was once told a story about a well known Lakeland activist going to solo Tarkus. Some friends of his had just climbed it, and insisted he tie their rope around his waist. He reluctantly did so, and then promptly fell off...

I wonder if he'll be along to confirm on deny the story. 

Something that hasn't really been mentioned is the look of the three contenders. I think Gimmer looks best aesthetically from most angles. Pavey looks a bit of a mess - it's hard to believe from a distance that there's so much decent climbable rock. Not purely aesthetic but finishing routes near the summit is pretty cool. Dow is kind of in between for me. I don't like the way the main areas of clean rock finish part way up the mountain from an aesthetic point of view but I do like the distinct buttresses, especially seen from across Goats Water. 

My thinking is North West Arête follows the line of least resistance all the way, whereas Eliminate A, in its upper half, zig-zags around looking for harder variations.

It doesn't go all the way, it stops on a ledge half way! And anyway, isn't Asterisk, straight up the face, easier?

Ah yes. I think when I did it we might have sacked off the last bit and gone up the obvious easier route, which seemed better. But the good bit, of course, is the exposed traverse - any VS with this pitch is going to be better than any VS on Gimmer, even F Routes (which is way better than NWA*).

*If only there was a route on Gimmer called  Niggaz With Attitude

It's a notch harder than Pink Panther, which I reckon is pretty tasty, even for Lakes E2.

North West Airlines have the same problem.

Not quite correct, tom.

What actually happenned was that I was on a soloing day. Set off up tarkus and reversed to the deck after deciding I was a bit jaded. I asked Andy who was already at the top to drop a rope. Then I fell off, I think I swung so far I had to finish up another route.

I am happy with the grades as they are for tarkus and pink panther, rough is a nightmare. PP is very spicy if you do the lower variation from the spike.

5c climbing, groundfall onto landing of doom from 10m = E1?

E2 is fine - but it helps if you get the high runner before the 'spike' (actually flatty)

I'll be avoiding that then.

After a groundfall "incident" I always try to get some gear in. I have done tarkus several times, there must be some runners if I have lead it.

Also most of my ascents will have been before micro wires and micro cams, however an ed cleasby special ( bootlace sling) is in my memory banks as well worth having in the " arsenal" for tarkus.

I'ld put Tarkus at E2, certainly harder than Sidewalk or Samba Pa Ti.

There's a small cam, but you've got an optimistic outlook if you think that's going to be helpful once you're committed on the face. 

I have no quarms putting them all at E2 but think that tarkus is easiest follows by spt then sidewalk.

Sidewalk into samba is my favourite way up  A buttress.

I'd go Samba < Sidewalk < Balrog < Panther < Tarkus. Done'em all recently.

That's a great idea - the top half of Sidewalk is shite.

I have always enjoyed its character building nature, the way it finds a path through all the huge blocks stitched together by nature and gravity.

Best done as one long pitch, that way you do not have to share the glory.

I was a bit reluctant to declare the combo as my fav way up as it could condemn the upper pitches to total obscurity.

A lot of funny numbers appeared when I clicked quote original, are you planning a guidebook?

Holocaust is 3 pitches all good , so hardly short .

At pavey have you done mother courage , its brill. Possibly better than any route at doe.

Brain damage is equally good but I have not done it since a flake came off the first pitch.

Yes better than any single Langdale Crag - memorable classics across the grades

eg Murrays,  Elimnate A, Catacomb, Holocaust, Tumble

Pavey runs it close but lacks the really good easier routes