UKC

Evening everyone. I hope you don’t mind my post- I am the location manager for a Netflix tv series and we are currently preparing to film at the Cow & Calf Rocks, Ilkley from Monday 13th - Friday 17th September 2021. This means that the main rocks are closed to the public on these dates as is the car park. The rocks and car park are open to all users on the weekends still. The shoot is made possible by arrangement with the Bradford Film Office, Council, and Natural England- and we apologise to all users for any inconvenience caused. If you have any questions, please pop a comment below and I’ll do my best to answer. Happy climbing! Alex

Bit late posting this after people were turned away from climbing today because the quarry was being prepared for filming. This is open access land so without a temporary CRow closure which checking the natural England website you haven't got you have no legal power to stop people from entering the area. Disappointing.

What a load of bollocks

Monday 13th - Friday 17th September 2021 dates are wrong, it's not available on the weekends. It was cordoned off today and there was a member off staff turning away walkers, other climbers and general member of the public, including us. Once we expresses our annoyance and dismay and told them they couldn't do this as it was a public right of way, 2 more members of staff joined the lady and reinforced our inabilty to access the site. They told us the quarry area had been closed for 4 days to enable cleaning and rope access in to check safety, therefore anyone going in would "undo 4 days good work".

Overheard a phonecall from one of the rope access guys claiming Netflix had paid the council a lot of money for this access so "try arguing with a council". We have notified Dave Turnbull at the BMC. 

Hi Alex 

I've just taken up the bagpipes and my wife won't let me practice in the garden any more, so I'll be looking for somewhere quiet where I won't be annoying my neighbours - thanks for clearing the area, Rocky Valley is probably ideal. See you in Betty's x

ROFL 🤣

Absolute rubbish! We were one of the parities turned away today and the entrance was cordoned off, with staff turning everyone away. 

I said this was a public right of way which you can't just block off. The response was "Well there's been a consultation so everything must be in place." I didn't realise flimsy laminated A4 signs saying it would be closed from Monday 13th - Friday 17th with your phone number on the bottom, were legal precedence for blocking a public right of way, silly me. 

As Graeme says above, there is no information online in the relevant place, so this is unlawful activity.

I reccomend as many climbers as are free descend on the quarry. TV companies cannot just come along and do as they please. 

I'd say that there's been a great deal of reputational damage done to Netflix and all those who have failed to communicate adequately to others likely to be affected by this Alex.  So my question is, what do you have to say in defence of Netflix and your sponsors and enablers for the inconvenience that you have caused to so many people?  Do Netflix want climbers and walkers to cancel their subscriptions?  

You've offered to provide answers; off you go then, there's plenty of us waiting.

T.

Well, that went well...

Hi all,
⁠
Thanks very much for the comments here.
⁠
I completely understand all of your frustrations. We are working with the local authorities and Natural England to ensure our filming goes as smoothly as possible, and works within the remit of the SSSi designation.
⁠
We have a security team on site to protect our assets and look after the site.
⁠
Filming does contribute a lot to the local economy and we really enjoy filming in places such as Cow and Calf.
⁠
At no point are we looking to close a public right of way, but must ensure continuity in what we film. We will allow access throughout our filming period to passers-by and RoW but rock climbing is not included in this.
⁠
We have now enforced a CRoW order on this occasion to allow as many of the public as possible to still enjoy the space. We may hold for shot to ensure there are not public in our filming.
⁠
If you do have any further questions or would like to see any documentation please do email my manager on james.ac.davey@gmail.com
⁠
Thank you all for your understanding and co-operation. And we hope this can go as smoothly as possible.
⁠
Cheers again! Alex

A few years ago a couple of friends of mine went to climb at Troy Quarry only to find a film company in situ. They were asked to go away but refused. The director offered them £50 each. So they took the money and went on the piss instead. 

So, rough translation:

“oh shit. You’ve rumbled us. We can’t legally block a public right of way just cos we say so, so yes, we’ll have to stop filming while you wander past. However, I’ll continue to blag you that we can stop you climbing and hope the threat of Big Trevor in a hi vis vest will be enough to see you off”

Here’s a thought Netflix, if you can bung ex minor royalty a few tens of millions in exchange for possible future navel gazing pontification, perhaps you can afford to provide Big Trevor with a fist full of beer tokens to persuade climbers to sod off elsewhere for the day?

Edit: my thoughts exactly Seymore. You posted while I was still typing

Crags are not the sole preserve of climbers, we have no ownership of (most of) them.

I appreciate how the Netflix thing has been poorly managed and may have come as a surprise to many. It is one crag for a short period. Reactionary protests will only prolong this period.

We sacrifice great swathes of rock to the rspb every spring, Ilkley for a short period pales in comparison. 

I suspect that the talk of closing the CRoW land may be a fabrication. I do not think that this is something that can miraculously happen overnight. Can anyone check the veracity or otherwise of this?

Who owns the quarry and who would authorise its closure ?  They're probably the ones people should be taking this up with rather than employees of Netflix who almost certainly don't have a say in their company's decisions. 

Nor are film companies top of the food chain which means they can rock up at will, give incorrect information and intimidate members of the public with talk of ‘security’. Besides this is an extremely popular spot for walkers and families - this isn’t just affecting climbers.

If info had been given in advance and correct permissions had been gained people would still grumble of course but I wouldn’t have agreed with them. As it is this stinks and Netflix and Bradford council have questions to answer.

Are you sure you suddenly have one, that seems rather quick as the process takes a minimum of 6 weeks to get a decision from the OACC

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-access-land-and-the-coastal-margin-how-to-...

Your restriction is also not listed on the relevant pages:

http://www.openaccess.naturalengland.org.uk/wps/portal/oasys/maps/MapSearch

Never said they are and it's not climbers saying they have sole rights of access to them. It's Netflix.

So big corporations should be allowed to shout "Mine!" while falsely claiming legal justification and Joe Public should just meekly rescind hard won rights of access? No thanks.

No we don't. We stop climbing a few crags for the sake of nesting birds, not because a massive Global corporation is trying to blag us out of our rights of way.

I took it as weasel wording:

"We have now enforced a CRoW order on this occasion to allow as many of the public as possible to still enjoy the space." 

What he actually means is:

"We have now realised we're bound by a CRoW order to allow as many of the public as possible to still enjoy the space." 

I agree with all of that. No one has precedence of use. Ilkley is a popular beauty spot, which means it looks good in photos and on film too.

I referred to climbers because this is a climbing form.

The event appears to have been poorly managed and communicated. It is likely that responsibility for this lies with the land owner rather than Netflix.

Protests and harassment as proposed above will only prolong the closure. Best to let it happen and take it up with the landowner after the event. 

I thinks it's a typo: "now" = "not". 

AFAIK Bradford Council is the landowner. As well as being the organisation who should be asserting and protecting our rights to use PROWs and CROW Access Land at the Cow and Calf.

You are not comparing like for like. If a climber or walker was banning others from accessing the site while they did their thing it would not stand.. Since 'no one has precedence of use' (your words) and yet you suggest Netflix does. Do you work for them?

Rock climbing is permitted under the CRoW act.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/open-access-land-management-rights-and-responsi...

A landowner has a right to suspend CRoW access for up to 28 days a year.  However they usually have to give several days' notice.

Suspending or diverting a public right of way is more complicated and can take several months.

It is not unreasonable to ask to see evidence of either.  If PRoW or CRoW rights are suspended then you are trespassing, but that should be a matter for the landowner to deal with.  Netflix should be able to publish their agreement with the landowner which should show whether they have been given authority by the owner to exclude others. 

The real issue here is poor communication.  The access rights could be suspended quite legitimately (and may have been) it is the failure to inform visitors which has caused the problem.

Good Lord, no. 

I am trying (and failing) to suggest a pragmatic approach. There has clearly been some mismanagement here, it is best to deal with this after the event to prevent reoccurrence. Angry climbers descending on Ilkley with an overgrown sense of entitlement to argue, bustle and daub the backdrop with white patches will only serve to delay and prolong the "closure".

Just let them get on with it, they will be away soon enough to cause ructions elsewhere. Ensure that learning is taken forward from the event by both the land owner and the film company.

I have to disagree, this some of behaviour from film companies and the like is too common. If they get away with it, then they will just repeat it. They need to be called out and the way to do that is to go there and climb.

Living in Cornwall, I won’t be making the trip, but we have had similar issues in Cornwall eg Bear Ghryls’ filming trying to close Bosigran and the Coast Path.

Yes. And In any case, what have Netflix ever done on grit?

(Apologies - thought I’d get in with it before anyone else)

Love the fact film crews think they take precedent in public spaces. You don’t. 

Had the same last year at Blea Tarn. Telly knobs everywhere. Generators constantly pumping out pollution. Crew 4x4s idling. It was an absolutely travesty.

If I lived any closer, I’d come over and curl one out on the bonnet of the lead’s Winnebago.

I'm at the cow & calf now, and have video of their production teams littering left over the back of the quarry, I asked "security" if they were going to clean up the litter and their reply was "the production would clean them up tomorrow".

Disgraceful.

I thought - although I could be wrong - that part of the 'process' requires that the legal notice of closure (as opposed to any old "path closed" sign) be posted at the access points for the PRoW, i.e., if there's no legal notice of closure, then it's not closed, whatever else may have happened. At least that's what happens in my neck of the woods (but INAL as we say).

Sorry to disappoint you further, but you don’t get to decide what’s allowed, nor to enforce it. The sense of entitlement that clearly comes from having got away with this behaviour in the past is frightening. 
 

(Edited to fix formatting)

I believe CRoW is slightly different in that you can enter the land from anywhere you legally have access to, so signage couldn't be placed at all 'access points'. With the public road running right through the access land at the Cow n Calf (and larger moor) you could legally walk on to the land at any point for miles. PRoWs obviously have defined start, route and end points so is somewhat more logical. 

Indeed. I was specifically referring to PRoW closure (which I think is relevant here) rather than CRoW restriction.

The PRoWs here are more or less irrelevant I think. You can legally close the footpath but if you don't close the access land it crosses too, then people would be entitled to use it under the CRoW act still as far as I'm aware. Perhaps a legal oddity, be interested to hear from anyone with a definitive answer! 

It's usually the other way round: CRoW access is restricted (regularly) but PRoW access is still there - you just cannot leave the path. To close a PRoW on access land without restricting CRoW access would be pointless. I'm assuming from earlier posts that there is a PRoW at Cow and Calf and that's what the film crew are trying to close off.

Yes, I think we're trying to make the same point with different words!  

I'm intrigued to know what enforcement powers a TV production company has!

A clipboard and a superior manner? 

Probably very few but I doubt that would stop their security gorrillas making things difficult for you. 

They were hardly security gorilla's, a strong gust of wind would have seen them blown out of the entrance to the quarry.

But it's not public space, it's privately owned land.  If they have the necessary permissions then they do have precedence.

So are you lot going to arrange a meet up there and show them what they're up against? Just make sure someone has a Gopro on their nut to capture the action.

I've never been there and live nowhere near but I could do with something to watch this week with a beer and a cheese board. Remember the Kinder trespass? This should be a walk in the park.

Forcing them to go to the expense of rearranging the filming for a later date with appropriate permissions in place due to the incompetence of the way in which it has been arranged and communicated is more likely to have a meaningful impact than any discussion with security will have.

The OP is taking the piss and hopefully Netflix/ Bradford Council come to the realisation that they need to do things properly! 

Public spaces can be privately owned.

The point is, they have no such permissions and seem to be lying by pretending that they have...

If the owner is Bradford Council, then it what manner is it privately owned land?

(Although of course being publicly owned doesn't automatically mean it's a public space)

Unfortunately, I suspect you are right and this is the only way they will learn. 

Not necessarily. Owning land does not automatically give you total control (permission or restriction) over access. Any 'precedence' is limited by national laws (e.g., CRoW act and others). If there is a PRoW over the land then that cannot be easily (legally) denied irrespective of who owns it.

CRoW act makes it a public space. Any closures are at the owners inconvenience, having to apply etc. It can be both a public space and privately owned. 

People seem to be basing their assumption that CRoW rights have not been suspended on the absence of any information on Natural England's map.  However the owner doesn't have to apply to NE to close the land for up to 28 days in a year, they only have to notify them.  Since NE doesn't approve such closures I wonder whether any error or delay on their part in recording the closure could prevent the owner from exercising that right?

I would be very surprised to find that this hasn't been done properly.  In my professional life I've dealt with film companies wanting to use land for shoots, and they have all been very thorough and professional.  It is in their interests to be so - filming is very expensive, and they don't want it delayed because of mistakes in the paperwork.  Of course it is not impossible that on this occasion someone has cocked up, but I think it unlikely especially as the Council (the landowner) and NE have been involved.  The film company has confirmed that no public rights of way have been closed.

The company could have communicated this more clearly and given more warning, and ensured their jobsworths were properly briefed.  They obviously haven't encountered climbers before

Has anyone contacted the council yet ?

...just to say that the BMC has been in touch with Bradford Council this AM (via our local Access Rep Mick Johnson) and that we're awaiting a response. We've asked for clarification of the procedures following in order for the Council to authorise the filming / land closure. We'll report back as / when we hear back.

A similar situation arose on the North York Moors some months ago. A climbing club meet had been scheduled for Captain Cook's Crags. On the night and as the meet time approached, a number of members reported a road closure close to Gribdale Gate parking area, due to some filming. Most individuals took this at face value and reluctantly called off their night's climbing, doubly frustrating for them due to previous lockdown restrictions. A call to the local National Park Ranger confirmed that no official road closure was being shown on the Highway Authority's website (North Yorkshire and normally very efficient in this respect) and that although Forestry England owned the parking area, there was ample alternative parking which they didn't own, should they have come to an agreement to temporarily restrict use of their parking area.

Forearmed, I drove up the public highway only to be stopped by your man in high vis vest holding a clip board. He informed me that the road was closed and I couldn't proceed. I asked to see the authority authorising a road closure which he was unable to produce. We very quickly reached the "I am only doing what I am employed to do" situation. I empathised with him (due to current economic and employment needs) but informed him that he had no right to stop anyone and that I would be carrying on up the road. Due to the nature of our confrontation, I assumed that an episode of "Call my bluff" must be being filmed as he made no effort to stop me. It turned out that a scene was being shot for a film about Seaton Canoe Man. The film unit had taken over all of the parking area and much of the adjacent space. A number of heavies made as though to approach my little car but I just looked "dead ard" and they moved aside.

Fortunately I have some little knowledge of access rights and reinforced by annoyance at the audacity to claim closure of a public road and its impact on my climbing friends, I felt able to challenge this example of corporate bullying. I suggest all responsible climbers make themselves aware of Open Access and Public Rights of Way legislation and carry either a paper map or download on a smartphone so as to be able to check if on Open Access Land if challenged by landowners, keepers, etc. It is worth stating that "Individual militancy" is not always recommended ! As a light hearted aside, we have a new landowner who complains that horse riders keep using the Public Bridleway across his land, bless him. 

Interestingly, my local High Street was closed on Sunday for Netflix to do some filming.

No warning that I'm aware of, they just coned the road off - I don't have time to go looking for whether they filed the right requests, etc.

I wonder how many of the keyboard warriors on here climb or have climbed at Ilkley?

I suspect a good few have Netflix and enjoy the TV that Netflix produces.

And how many of us all will sit down with a can of cloudy beer, enjoy the production and point out to our loved ones... “That’s Ilkley Quarry, I’ve climbed there”

Keep it real lads, it’s a few days out of a life time and it’s due to rain anyway.

I’ve been looking for an excuse not to fall off welly crack again. Film for as long as you like lads

(Ghost stories was filmed up on the moor. Right film that.)

Ha Ha you falling off that was like Scud missile entering Chechnya, and I was the Chechyan belayer😳 

Just landed on the WhatsApp chat...

“I was thinking more that they’re all chelping on like there isn’t one of grit stones great crags only another ten mins walk??!! 

Go to Rocky valley and try twin cracks, walkers hangover or somersault. See how good you really are“

“I don’t care who you are. Twin cracks is ‘ard” - Allan Austin

Please read out loud this feed so you can have some sort of idea how daft and petty you all sound, bunch of middle aged trouts crying that you can't go play on the rocks grow up, not one of you will be under the age of 30. the cow and calf is a  piss easy climb try a spofforth pinnacles free clime or drag your sagging arses up Malham cove and stop giving us the stigma that we're all tw*ts 🤘✌️

I’m with you and I’m 56 😎

Couldn't agree more. Don't bother going to Malham though — me and my mates are doing some drone photography and will be cordoning the crag off to make sure your sagging arse isn't in any shots.

Oh wait, hold on...

Apparently I don’t have as arse!

I suppose it makes a nice change for a new user to join in with an access debate and berate people for being miserable old gits, rather than spread Covid misinformation.

Its like 2015 again.

Give it time ...

So it was you that crashed thier drone into the cliff near my mate on Saturday whilst we were climbing at Malham presumably after seeing his sagging arse?

Sorry if I sound like an Internet warrior, but I have climbed at Ilkley on several occasions, unfortunately I am not quite under 30 but one of the above posters who was turned away on Saturday was if that makes it any better, all of these thing are totally irrelevant. As others have said it is more the principle of restricting access to open spaces that is under threat if we accept this as a norm, rather than this particular venue for a few days. If you would rather support land owners, being able to restrict access to public spaces, which in this case is publicly owned without sufficient notice or taking account of all users not just climbers you will probably come to regret such actions when access to certain cliffs becomes more difficult or not possibly at all as it was prior to the CRow act. Our hard won ccess is worth standing up for as many would rather it wasn't the current status quo.

I personally take offence at being called a tw@t, for standing up for our democratic rights instead of supporting corporations often railroading peoples access in pursuit of thier gains. If you don't call things out you obviously don't value access to many of our crags as much as I do.

Benny Rothman would have been a keyboard warrior if the World Wide Web had been invented back then if the dude from Nidderdale attitude is anything to go by. 

A formidable first post Chris. However, this "piss easy climb" you talk of; is it somewhere between HVS and E1?

As entertaining as this discussion is, has anyone actually done anything about it? 

Approached the council or Netflix for clarification? 

Or is this all just Internet posturing? 

See upthread.  BMC.

See Dave Turnbull's post earlier.

T.

So, the BMC had a response from Bradford District Council this afternoon following a query submitted by Access Rep Mick Johnson. Danny Jackson, the Countryside & Rights of Way Manager for the Council gave a detailed response as follows: 

************

Your query about filming at the Cow and Calf quarry has been forwarded to me.  My team manage Ilkley Moor and we have been working with the Bradford Film Office and Netflix on this production, in our role as landowner.

In terms of the procedures you ask about, we have assent from Natural England and this includes a Habitats Regulations screening assessment of the operation. Relating to access to the quarry, the moor is common land (or Section 15 land as defined in the CROW Act), so the access restriction process that applies to “open country” (whereby we notify Natural England of a temporary restriction) is not relevant here.  We have, however, explained to the film company that they must work around the fact that the public will be about and we cannot give them exclusive use of these areas.  We accept however that it is perfectly reasonable for them to try and manage access to these specific locations when filming is in progress or when work is taking place, through use of stewards and signage.  This has proven to be effective on other film shoots and people tend to co-operate, the Government guidance on this matter states:

“Signs or verbal requests can be more effective than legal restrictions because:

- they can be put in place at short notice

- they do not require advanced notice or approval

- they can be used in all situations where they’re useful

- visitors are more likely to follow instructions suggesting what they can do rather than a legal restriction which tells them what they cannot”

I have spoken to the location manager today and he is aware of the issue.  He has confirmed that they are seeking to manage access in a co-operative manner and most people are happy to oblige.  I suggested that perhaps some of the wording on the signage in use might need looking at to reflect the above.

You will appreciate that we don’t get prior notice from the groups who use the quarry for climbing, particularly those who run outdoor activities or training events – so we can’t forewarn them in advance.  The filming is temporary and will be over by the end of the week.  After that, access to the quarry will be as it is all year-round, for climbing, walking and all the other pastimes people enjoy. 

All that is required is a bit of give and take.

I hope this clarifies the situation.

Regards,

Danny     

**********

So essentially the site is Common Land and there are no formal restrictions on access as part of the filming arrangement, it is up to the film company to manage access - for both walkers and climbers - in a 'cooperative manner'.

You're quite right, all piss easy Milky Way (E6 6b), The New Statesman (E8 7a), Gerty Berwick (E9 7b)

Please tell us which day you're going to run up (at least) these 3 so that us old farts can come and watch.

Sad troll post

Don't you have something better to do?

Your public logbook has nothing ticked after 1997. You’ve not ticked owt at Ilkley yet you’re clearly aware of the hard routes there. 😎🤩 
Do you even know where Ilkley is?

Firstly, I have a prodigious memory for useless information.

Also, as it says in my profile, I've only logged "new" E point leads or solos; since 97 I've been even more of a punter 😁

Ambition to "return" but not enough motivation ☹️

Only soloed some really, really easy stuff there and gazed up at the hard lines. Can visualize the view from the car park right now. However, I've never wandered over to the rocky valley bit.

Don't think I've ever done anything in Nidderdale though, nearest would be Brimham or Slipstones.

All we have to do is keep arguing on here until Friday then bingo! Ilkley returns to normal, reversing ducks and all. 

(For clarity: I don't actually own a drone, don't actually fly drones, don't live in Yorkshire and have never actually visited Malham. )

Hi Alex.............

Yes - Cow and Calf was the first outside crag I took my kids to, a couple of years ago.

None of what you say means that Netflix has the right to "rock" up and close a chunk of public land on a whim without the proper authorisations.

This whole thread will end up being a 9 parter on Netflix, a tale of entitlement, procedures and intransigence, starring Napoleon Soloist and titled 'Not Josephine Tonight'.

Registered 13th September 2021 - are you hialexbrooks ??

Can't help but think you've somewhat undermined your own argument here...

Well, can certainly see that you're under the age of 30 - the poor grammar, lack of punctuation, spelling mistakes.  Or maybe you're a Netflix story editor? 

Why do you think that learning will be taken away by a film unit who have been able to restrict access with impunity, with no consequence to their budget or their schedule?

I think you overestimate how much of a toss said people give about a load of climbers making noise on an online forum. The way to ensure learning is to ensure they are inconvenienced by their appalling attitude. The way to do that is to go climbing, or walking, or bagpipe-playing.

Really that is my whole point, they don't give a toss, they are there to get a job done. Let them get on with it, that way the return to the norm is not delayed.

Fighting and protesting about this is pissing in the wind and can only inconvenience climbing further by delaying completion.

At a vague guess, Ilkley is used for filming for a day per year on average, this, a bit of country file, emmerdale,news or whatever. Hardly a huge loss of access. 

Many, many more people enjoy telly than climbing. I doubt there will be much public sympathy for the outcry shown here.

Just suck it up, it will all be forgotten next week. Relax and prepare yourself for a good winter of dry tooling, scratching and climbing things which aren't in condition rants. They will be along sooner than you think. 

What if they really like the location or aren’t happy with the footage, and then decide to do another few weeks of filming. 

Then another film company think - wow what an awesome place, lets make a film there too. 

Where would you draw the line? It’s a lot better for everyone involved if they get access for a certain timescale that makes it clear to others what restrictions are in place rather than bringing in some heavies to try and scare others off for their own personal gain. 

Film locations do fall in and out of fashion just like crags but I doubt a rapid rise in use will be seen. Perhaps we should direct Netflix towards Bram Crag, Attermire or some other poorer inexplicably fashionable venue 😁

It will soon be Friday. 

I had high hopes for this thread, my fantasy was:

• Few plucky climbers ask Bezos if he would like them to play rent a mob for Prime, disrupting Netflix shoot in exchange for Amazon vouchers.
• Rock up and get paid off by Alex without being too much of an arse to the other folks taking Netflix's cash.
• Enjoy a few climbs elsewhere, buy some tins.
• Enjoy tins while watching the antics that follow an anonymous tip off to local click bait "newspaper" - "Netflix stars filming secret show at Yorkshire beauty spot- here's how you can find out whats going on" (article: go and look. They can't stop you. P.S. you haven't signed an NDA. Obviously spun out over several page of ads.)
• Bullies learns lesson about throwing their weight around, climbers feel triumph of sticking it to the man, big businesses suffer minor financial inconvenience, harmony returns to the Vale and the real treasure was the friends we made along the way.

But instead its dissolving into a handful of sub threads of people whinging at each other. Peak UKC!

And the norm — the real norm, the lawful norm — is disrupted at their next location the next time. And the time thereafter, and thereafter, and...

As the council representative says, give-and-take is key. Unfortunately, turning people away from land they have every right to be on is not giving, and thus it shouldn't be taken. Good attitude breeds good attitude. Bad attitudes tend to just 'ck people off and make the more militant of us decide not to take.

Mmm. You could say the same about anti-racism protests, about anti-authoritarian bill protests, about any protests. Let's just become China.

But pretty crap for those who have actually burned fuel and wasted time to go to the crag, only to be turned away by someone acting entirely outwith the rights they have. Even worse when those people know they're acting entirely outwith the rights they have and think they have a God-given right to do it anyway.

No. No, because there's nothing more infuriating than arrogant idiots who blag their way around the right and proper process, at great inconvenience to others. No, because arrogant idiots shouldn't be accommodated. And no, because stupidity like this makes life far more difficult for others who do have to rely on public goodwill but who do do things properly and don't try to unilaterally restrict access when they have no right to. Unfortunately that's occasionally me, and I'd much rather this becomes an expensive mistake so that in future they actually do things properly.

You really are taking everything to the extreme here and presenting my arguments out of context.

Netflix will not take over the world because they filmed at Ilkley for a week. The crags, fells and moors are available to more than just climbers.

Next time you go to one of those oxymorinic mountain Festivals or enter a race, think about the impact that has on other users. Be that closed roads, restricted parking or simply someone wanting a quiet day out suddenly involved in a multi coloured circus.

Three days and counting, soon be done. Then you can go and search for a tiny scrap of evidence that Netflix were there to rant about, perhaps a scrap of paper left amongst the chalk stains finger tape and starting cairns. 

Yeah, yeah, I know, all that is different because it is climbing. 

It's not different because it's climbing. It's different because three different people have used the phrases 'turned away', 'turning away' and 'turning everyone away' to describe what has happened to spoil their day.

When a mountain festival or a fell race starts turning other people away from access land, I'll be equally angry.

ISWYDT

Very good.

Has anyone found out if they’re cleaning with wire brushes yet?

Perhaps  have a think about why you think its OK for one group of people to lie and intimidate another group of people and greatly inconvenience them for the sake of them not being inconvenienced.

You've spent some time now defending this behaviour and I'm really puzzled as to why. Do you go on like this yourself?

No, it's not just about climbing. It's really, really straightforward and I'm amazed some people don't get it.

It's about maintaining a clear principle that lying and bullying to get your own way isn't acceptable. 

In the big scheme of things it isn't a big thing. Restricted for five weekdays. A good film is a good advert for the area and will raise tourist revenue, maybe even from climbers who will see the crag and want to climb there. 

I am challenging the entitled mummy's special soldiers who believe the world revolves around climbing and all other activities should stop because of it. Also I am on nights and can't sleep so I am grumpy. 

It is, mummy won't let us ay with the Lego this afternoon so we are havi g a tantrum. 

That is true and I agree. The bmc have/are doing their bit. Let them get on with it. As I have said many times above, unhindered, Netflix will depart swiftly and be quickly forgotten. Playing bagpipes, challenging security interfering with the backdrop will only prolong the agony. How do you fancy an extra week or having to return to complete? 

Perfectly fine, because they will and will have to allow access during that time, because they have no right to do otherwise, and so it's entirely irrelevant whether they're there or not.

You're missing the point entirely.

Right. So at what scale do you start to find lying and bullying unacceptable?

Personally speaking, I don't teach my kids that a little bit of lying and bullying is ok if it means you get your own way. I don't go on like that myself and I don't just shrug my shoulders if other people try that on with me.

You might think that's who you're challenging but absolutely no one on this thread has presented their argument in that manner.

If you'd like to quote anyone having a tantrum on here?

Yeah, well that's the whole thrust of the argument of the vast majority who've posted on the subject.

The BMC seem to have got involved on the strength of this thread so if everyone had followed your lead nowt would've got done and the liars and bullies or this world would have had one more little victory to confirm them in their belief that they'll prosper through lying and bullying.

Some of the reactions to this do appear to be over the top.  OK, it now appears that they don't have the right to prevent public access, so their claim that the rocks are closed to the public is incorrect and misleading.  Call that lying if you like, but bullying? Really?

That aside, they have as much right to carry out their activity as climbers have to theirs, since they have the landowner's permission.  So a bit of give and take is advisable.  Access rights are not absolute or unrestricted, and some balance is needed and expected.

Schedule 2 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 (which sets out restrictions on those exercising access rights) says you must not obstruct or disrupt, or even annoy, other lawful activities, even unintentionally.  If they have the landowner's permission and any other necessary consents, which appears to be the case, then their filming is a lawful activity.  It might be reasonable to insist on your right to walk through the area and hold up their filming for 5 minutes.  It might not be reasonable to insist on climbing a route and holding up filming for half an hour or longer.  Is it even possible to climb there in a way which would not interfere with their filming?  If not, then it might be argued that the right of access to climb under CRoW cannot be exercised lawfully. 

Even if it were reasonable in a legal sense, I think many casual observers would think you were behaving selfishly and irresponsibly.  It's for a few days, midweek. It's not like there aren't any alternative venues. Whatever you may think of it, this is people's livelihoods versus your recreation (any professional climbing instructors who it might affect should know better than most where else to go)

Of course the film company must also act lawfully, and it was right that they were called out over this, but presumably now the point has been clarified they are no longer trying to ban the public.  

The climbing community has a very one-sided view of the law, and prefers to believe it should be able to climb wherever it likes whatever the law says.  The howls of outrage when it thinks its legal rights of access might be infringed are matched only by those when a landowner lawfully prevents access to land where there are no public rights.

Anyone actually know what they are filming? We were at rock valley on Sunday and saw some green matting around the top of the quarry but nothing else as parking was rammed around the c+c so we parked at white wells. 

As far as the filming goes, unless they are filming a disaster movie or something where someone has to suffer for a few laughs they are unlikely to be getting a lot done as the weather in the area is terrible, constant rain and poor visibility with fog

You may be right, but it's also a well acknowledge legal position that if you don't defend your rights then you risk losing them. Hard earned rights should be defended on principle, not just as a matter of expediency or convenience.

We have a security team on site to protect our assets and look after the site.

mentioning security teams being present, in the context of previous posters suggesting asserting their rights to access land they have every right to access could be read as having an undertone of menace.

And no sign of “hialexbrooks” now since Saturday, and since his company have been contacted by the Council as landowner, who have clarified they have no right to exclusive access to the site, and should be asking nicely rather than telling people what they can do and dropping mention of bouncers into the conversation.

it would be nice, and would go some way to repair the reputation damage to Netflix, if he would come back and acknowledge that he has messed up, that a more constructive way to have approached the situation would have been to register on ukc a couple of weeks before he did and let people know the filming plans before people spent money travelling to the venue, and ask for people’s support rather than pretending that he could dictate terms to us; and that this is something that they will bear in mind in future location filming. 

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Agreed.  However those rights are not exclusive or unrestricted, and asserting rights doesn't mean there can't be give and take. Climbers have to share these places with others, just as we expect others to share them with us.  Some of the responses appear to have forgotten that.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

If that's how you choose to read it.  "Bullying" still seems a bit strong to me.  However I don't know how it's been handled on site.

I absolutely agree, especially in view of the promise made in the original post to address any comments made.  Apart from one reply, reasserting their position, he has not responded again.  To invite comments and then to fail to address valid concerns is poor PR. Surely everyone knows by now that it's not the original mistake which matters so much as how you rectify it?  Even if they had only acknowledged the situation and said they were in discussions with the authorities and the BMC and would abide by the outcome it would have calmed things down.

But the greater disruption to other users (by a couple of orders of magnitude) due to filming (and bully tactics) is fine, because Netflix?

There's already one shill trolling here, we don't need another.

Aye. And denying people access (again; 'turned away' is the common word used to describe what happened at the weekend) is not giving. Giving and taking is a two-way thing, and if the very first thing someone does is take massive liberties, then it's hardly surprising that people will be annoyed and not want to do any giving or taking of their own.

Bear in mind that their first day of filming — ie cameras rolling, public potentially walking into shot — was yesterday. Not Saturday, not Sunday.

Or to put it more succinctly: if an elderly person raps me across the shins unprovoked with their cane and reprimands me for being an irresponsible youth, I'll be unlikely to hold the door open for them.

Not completing a job which will be appreciated by many, time extensions, additional costs are all OK because climbing?

Play nicely, share your toys. 

The time extensions and additional costs are OK because of public access in general, they should have been factored in from the start. 

A simple request to people to either wait until the end of a shot or to walk around out of view would have been fine. 

I think you and PW are 'turning up the contrast' a bit here. My perception of the 'outrage' expressed is that it is not so much with peoples' inability to climb at Ilkley, but more about a large commercial body assuming powers it doesn't have to restrict what people can do. It nothing really to do with Ilkley, climbing or Netflix as such - they are just a 'vector' of a wider issue.

If the OP had said "... we're planning to do some filming ... access is unaffected, but we'd appreciate if you could help us ... blah, blah, blah", then 99% of this thread would never have happened.

Passed by today as was up that way for a walk. Passed through on the dales way path above the quarry. Yes quarry was closed off but a friendly chap asked which way we were going and advised best way through and not to worry about the tents etc. Was surprised to witness a quarry full of warriors with various weaponry along with many others hanging about. Site was clean and organised and mats etc had been put out to protect land. All in looked good fun and didn't inconvenience me one bit.

So.... Alex Brooks et al... Work on your communication skills! As said if you'd approached this differently there would be so much less backlash. Don't dictate where people can walk- ask them nicely. Let people have a nose (within reason) at what you're doing they'll be interested and invested and welcome you back.

I was in Buttermere last week when Mr Cruise was doing his buisness and I was impressed by how well the whole thing was managed, minimal impact on the public. Nothing to complain about, coexistance can be achieved in these situations just looks like Netflix failed to do so.

Well then, how does Tom go about having a cr@p?

Well they had brought portaloos....

He has kept us out of Darlton Quarry since about March though! Yes, it's not access land, and yes, it's a bit shit - but still! I want to rage against the machine for keeping me off the few 6a+s and 6bs I haven't done their yet!

That's nothing, the pesky Peregrines kept me from Climbing at Dovestones Main Quarry for 4 months earlier this year and that was access land!

No, my point is that when different activities are both exercising lawful rights of access then there has to be some give and take by both.  Since it now appears that Netflix hadn't secured the permissions to exclude the public they can't stop people climbing, but that doesn't make their presence unlawful.  Although climbers have access rights under CRoW, those are subject to the restrictions in Schedule 2.  Both groups need to work together - any climbers insisting on their access rights regardless of the impact on others might find that they are in breach of Schedule 2, which I imagine would probably make them trespassers. Netflix's behaviour, on the other hand, would depend on whether this was in breach of any conditions in their agreement with the landowner, and whether the landowner felt inclined to enforce those conditions.

In reply:

Imagine a Palestinian climber walking in on this conversation!! 

You talk about their PRESENCE - what about their (or their representatives) ACTIONS ?

What if I had "loads of money" and decided that I wanted an area for myself (and friends) ? If I employed "rentamob" security to keep everyone else out, even though I had no legal right to do so, while I had the place to myself, that would be much the same as what netflix has basically done.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/destinations/more_filming_at_windgather_m...

This is a much better way to go about this sort of thing. 

It's the Witcher next season - cavill and momoa...

Don't ask how I know

Thanks, I cycled past today and asked a member of the crew tidying up. Their response was I've signed a NDA but if you have a Google the most popular hits are on the money. Five minutes later on Reddit and I came up with the same as you. I've never watched "the Witcher", don't have a TV let alone a netflix sub, so it will likely wash me by. I was hoping it would be something climbing related.

They were still clearing up but people were back climbing, someone was on the big slabs to the left of the quarry entrance.

There was filming at the roaches today, adverts for coats he said to me. They wanted a shot with a drone and I heard them ask some lads if they could just give them a minute and they will then be out of the way. Perfectly reasonable request and polite with it. The guy modeling took it upon himself to stand on top of valkyrie after the h and s guy said no. All friendly and no issues when it's like this.