UKC

Not sure if this has been posted on here but ...

https://www.snowdonpartnership.co.uk/parkingandtransport

are asking for views and comments. I think we should express our opinions as this topic has generated some heated discussion on this site in the recent past.

Could be the end of free parking in Ogwen !

and after cycling in the last few weeks, has really made me appreciate the easy access.

It comes down to park and ride, and the inevitability that from the start, or after budget cuts the busses won't start early enough, finish late enough, aren't frequent enough or don't run in winter

Thanks for sharing that. Have filled in their survey

I wonder if the BMC know about this.  If so, are they making representations?

Thanks, just filled it in. Some of the survey design was almost as irritating as the constant student surveys on here!

I've filled it in, but I can't help but think it's going to end up being stick rather than carrot.  A quality of public transport nearer to that in the Lakes (or other European countries) is needed before you even think of doing anything with parking, and cycling as a mode of transport is not worth even bothering about because it's too hilly!

Yep. This.

BMC Cymru are aware and are very much involved in this consultation and have set up a small working group to prepare a response. We will also have people at all of the local community workshops.  

Elfyn Jones

BMC Access & Conservation Officer (Wales) 

I now (well, pre-Covid) do an "eyes left" on the way past Pen-y-Pass if I've got space in the car. And would far rather pick people up there than encounter them walking down the road, in black waterproofs and no lights, on the tight bends at Pont-y-Cromlech.

Another option would be to contrstuct a footpath like the one between Pen-y-Gwyrd and Pen-y-Pass. Notwithstanding that half the people who park there seem to walk up and down the road anyway...

FIFY

And this is the problem.  I'd very much be in favour of strongly restricting tourist car use in our National Parks, but that would have to come with the sort of quality public transport operations you get in Switzerland and the likes, and you can be sure it won't.

I'd be thinking of a model involving park and ride for day visitors, or if you're coming to stay the idea that you can drive to your hotel or campsite, but then would park up and be given a mandatory public transport pass included in the cost of your stay for getting around, which is what the Swiss do.  And the public transport be of good quality with plenty of space for kit, bicycles etc and both frequent and timetabled to connect properly at quality interchanges (not just a bus stop in the car park round the back of the station, like the appalling provision at Betws, for example).

You'd also need demand responsive services for more obscure places, though that doesn't so much apply to Snowdonia, more to the Lakes, as Snowdonia basically has everything pretty much strung out along 3 main roads.

It would also be necessary to look at public transport timetabling, for example running things late enough on Friday evenings that you can leave work in the South East on a train from Euston at about 7pm, say, and still reach your accommodation wholly by some form of public transport, and similarly get back on Sunday afternoon.

Winter is so much quieter so I could see a good argument for only applying this between Easter and say October inclusive, to be fair.

I'm sure you are right Kevin and have filled in the survey, emphasising the need for early bus starts (4am) an late finishes (10pm). It seems to me that the an underlying theme here is tax the tourists to pay for the gateway town/village parking infrastructure and bus services.

Some sort of enhanced taxi service based in Llanberis with courtesy phone at PyP may help for being late off the hill. At the moment not much chance of getting a taxi from Caernarfon (closest taxi base) to give up lucrative fares in town to pick up climbers 

That system seems to work pretty well in Europe, where a tourist tax is just an accepted cost. One of those incongruous benefits is standing at the Col de Montets with bouldering pads as the sun goes down, waiting for the last bus down to Argentiere for beer and pizza.

Chesterfield council have been working on the town becoming a Peak gateway for some time, so I wouldn’t be surprised about the rollout of this concept across the other National Parks

That of course is how you do it properly.  Council Tax and business taxes fund a quality public transport operation near where you live.  Tourist taxes fund them in the area where you go as a tourist, because generally tourist needs aren't that well-served by the network intended for locals.  Public transport done well isn't profitable, it's a piece of essential infrastructure (even the moving bits with the self-loading freight* inside) which requires a subsidy from taxation, and other civilised European countries accept that.

What you see when you rock up to your hotel is a small extra charge per night usually around the 2-3 quid mark (for reasons of inclusivity you could exempt basic campsites and bunkhouses, or make it a smaller figure e.g. 50p-£1 or so, or even use a percentage of the per-night cost - about 5-8% would give you the typical Swiss figures) that you barely notice against the cost of the accommodation, and you're given a pass to the public transport in the area for the duration of your stay, it's then free at the point of use so you might as well use it.

You just need to look at Switzerland for how it should be done, and that's exactly how you do it.

* That's a term used in the airline industry for the passengers

Improved parking is the answer, not changes to public transport.

Daytripers don't want to add an hour to both the start and end of their day waiting for a bus that may or may not appear.

Nobody wants to leave their expensive car (and contents) in a car park in the arse end of Bethesda. You can bet your arsehole that local miscreants would welcome the idea of such rich pickings being gathered in a local area!

The solution is to work with local farmers to provide parking where it is needed; It could be a nice little earner for them. Stick in a few charging points to keep the eco fruitcakes happy and Robert's your father's brother. Job done, you're welcome.

Unfortunately more parking will mean a lot more visitors, including those put off by current parking difficulties. Car parks need a lot more than just opening a field especially with risk of getting stuck in mud during frequent wet weather. No easy solution but if raising the bar in terms of inconvenience puts off the casual visitors but not committed hill walkers and climbers then in my book that’s not a bad thing

What the consultation paper fails to address is that there are two distinct groups of tourists, with very different needs.  The are the 'family tourists' who come for the shopping and tourist attractions in and around the Gateway Villages, who might be quite well served by the proposed arrangements as they wouldn't have to struggle to find parking in the villages.  There are also the outdoor communities (not just climbers and walkers, but bikers, paddlers and others) who mainly just pass through the villages to destinations within the inner area itself, and who may stay for shorter periods but visit throughout the year, including winter. 

However it has to be recognised that there is clearly a parking problem in some places, most obvously at Pen-y-Pass, and to an extent in Ogwen, particularly at Ogwen Cottage, and this has to be addressed.  However if they are going to force outdoor users onto public transport they will simply drive m,any visitors to outlying areas of Snowdonia, or to the Lakes.

I have zero confidence that they could provide a sufficiently comprehensive and frequent bus service that would meet the needs of the outdoor community, even in summer and certainly not in winter (it is hinted that the restrictions would be seasonal but this is not clear).  That would be doing better than most towns can achieve. 

Sustainable tourism is in principle clearly a Good Thing, but they have to decide what sort of tourist industry they want.  If they want to focus on the family visitors and discourage outdoor users, they should say so.  I would be very sad to have to reduce my visits to Snowdonia, but if they are going to make it too difficult and too expensive to do so then I will go elsewhere.

In summary a local council is consulting local people about controlling access to a National Park?

Of course local people should be consulted. But they are not the only stakeholders.

What 'behaviour change' schemes often fail to consider is that people's behaviour may change in ways they don't want. This plan assumes that visitors will change from cars to public transport, and in doing so spend money in the gateway villages. What if people choose to drive to the Lakes instead?

A large proportion of the transport problems over the last couple of years are specifically day trippers walking up Snowdon. If there are major restrictions imposed on accessing Snowdon by car then most will go along with it. 

Agreed.  The situation at Pen y Pass and parking along the road down to Pen y Gwryd in particular definitely needs addressing.  However the proposals to restrict parking appear to cover the whole of the Inner Area, not just Snowdon.  It's all a bit vague and lacking detail, and the current consultation doesn't help much because it's mainly addressing parking in the villages.

My concern is that if I want to be able to climb on say the Milestone or Idwal Slabs or walk on the Glyderau I don't want to have to park at Bettws or Bethesda and wait for a bus. That could easily add a couple of hours to my day, and I don't have much confidence that there would be an adequate bus service.  If it were to be made too restrictive (I still remember the proposals a few years ago to effectively ban all parking and make everyone use park and ride) it might be enough to make me choose to go somewhere else entirely.

That's probably selfish of me, and I agree that sustainable tourism is a good thing, but it's not easy to do in a way which doesn't deter visitors. This could make things very difficult for the outdoors communities, but until we have more detail it's difficult to know just how difficult.

You always have the option of giving the campsite owner a few quid and walking a few extra minutes. That seems to often be the best option anyway, given the chaos that is the Ogwen valley on a summer weekend.

Given that tourists are the users of such infrastructure and the cause of its necessity, surely they are the only people who should be charged for it? System works fine in Europe. 

Frankly, only in the UK do we tend to prefix increased influx of visitors to areas economically relying on tourism with the word "unfortunately". Without an attitude change, any scheme is doomed. Any parking changes sans the funding to actually improve infrastructure will shoot the area in the foot, and that is almost definitely going to be the outcome of this because locals don't seem to like tourists, central government is never going to allocate funds for the council to improve infrastructure to make parking as it is now unnecessary, and the council will have to prioritise the needs and desires of the people actually paying its bills directly.

years since I've been to North Wales but have the Snowdon Partnership &/or the National Park looked at schemes elsewhere ? Just in France I'm aware of free use of public transport for visitors in Chamonix & seasonal schemes such as in the Val de Clarée where the access road is open before something like 8 or 9 in the morning & after maybe 6 but closed to non-residents during the day in peak tourist season but with a cheap frequent bus service up & down the valley. Seems to work and the upper valley is a much more pleasant place in summer than before (in winter the road  forms part of the XC ski trail network). I've used something similar in Austria as well.

The campsites have very limited parking so that won't really be a solution, especially if the other parking options are removed.

I think the problem with this is that they they are assuming that they can achieve behaviour change through the stick of restricted parking and carrot of bus services, but that will only work if they can provide an effective bus service which meets the needs of its users.

There are actually two different types of user, creating two separate parking problems. One is vistiors flocking to the honeypot villages, the other is outdoor users flocking to their own honeypots, in particular Snowdon and Ogwen Cottage.  This proposes a single solution for both, which is why I have doubts.  It may suit the general holidaymaker trying to get around the tourist attractions, but for the outdoors community aiming to get to destinations between the villages (and perhaps encumbered with bikes or kayaks) I have doubts whether this will work.  If we aren't allowed to park but find the bus service is inadequate, then they could lose visitors.  Much as I love Snowdonia, if it becomes too difficult to visit there are other destinations I can go to.

I have seen these services work well in Europe, and I have no objection to a tourist tax.  However we have a very different attitude here to both local government (which has few powers) and public transport (which is underfunded).  I am not optimistic they can deliver a service which is frequent enough and comprehensive enough to be workable.  I will be glad to be proved wrong.

I think they should be focussing on Snowdon, with a better shuttle service from Llanberis and Nant Peris to avoid the need to park at Pen y Pass. If they can make that work, then they can think about rolling it out to other areas.

Thanks for posting this Sean, I've submitted a response with extra comments based around availability, service and flexibility. I do hope that something can be done and this is a legitimate exercise. As a group I think we're particularly demanding around where and when we want to be somewhere, especially responding to changing weather. And not all of us visit the hills between 8AM and 6PM, something public transport would struggle to do economically.

I seriously doubt they're going to do anything more imaginative than raising parking fees and restricting road-side parking...

 

That's exactly the system I'd like to see, funded with a tourist tax. It's what a lot of people here are arguing against though, for the one time every three years they decide to be on the hill at 4AM. 

Forgive me, but is the poster you're replying to not saying that you could still access to park in that scenario? The road is open at 4am you can drive in and park up but then it closes at 8am until the evening for non-residents? That way early starters could still access and park but day trippers would use Park and Ride.

Not much point in a tourist tax when most visitors are day trippers not spending money any more locally than McDonalds at Chester Services on the M56

It’s easy. You charge for the buses etc but get a dated card from your accommodation (where you pay the tax) which gets you a fee waiver. Same for local council tax payers )let’s say Gwynedd and Conwy for sake of argument).

Yes I know how it works, eg in Chamonix . But almost all of the car problems in Snowdonia are due to day trippers so your suggestion would not work

Day trippers could be dealt with by making the entire National Park a Controlled Parking Zone ("park only in marked bays with a permit displayed"), with residents receiving a free parking permit per vehicle and other needing to pay heftily for one, say maybe £10 per day with an extra charge for Pen y Pass.  Then put park-and-rides in.

The key thing is that you'd need considerably enhanced public transport, though, as it's really not even slightly up to the job at the moment.  The "Snowdon Sherpa" brand is quite strong, but the service itself is rubbish.  It used to be slightly better but it's never been what I'd call good.  And it wouldn't be too hard to do it, either, as you'd only need about 3 bus routes because the road layout, unlike the Lakes, is laid out conducively to serving it quite easily.

Yes indeed. But back to the core issue of funding busses to run from early morning until after dark and in winter etc

Yes.  It'll never be achieved unless the UK accepts that public transport is a piece of national infrastructure to be funded from taxation as a benefit to all (even those who can't use it, as driving their car is made easier by reduced congestion - see the way even people who never use the M6 Toll benefit from it by reduced congestion through Birmingham) and not something to try to make a quick profit out of.

An alternative regarding winter is as I mentioned above that the scheme would only apply between say the weekend before Easter and the end of October, because there isn't the same level of problem in winter.  That said if you're going to buy buses and employ drivers to get the service to an acceptable level (which would have to be something like hourly from say 0500 to 0000 and half-hourly from 0700 to 1800 as a minimum, I would say) you might as well use them all year.

Which is why you remove parking in sensitive areas as mentioned above. The issue is parking, not traffic per se. 

A CPZ for the whole Park (park only in marked bays) might help against that even if you don't put a swingeing charge in.  Would be a large project to mark on-street parking in the villages for housing, though.

The proposals seem to be based on a fanciful comparison with the Alpine Pearls scheme. 

I’d say that there’s a continuum between the two groups. 
 

If you just fancied a quick bimble up Tryfan and back down past Bochlwyd, you’re not going to be looking for a bus ride. 
 

A family who fancy a short walk round Llyn Idwal and take a few photos of Devils Kitchen. Likewise. 
 

I suspect parking at Ogwyn Cottage could be restricted to short stay 2 hours to accommodate that kind of activity. 
 

You probably need a mixture of approaches for a mixture of different needs. 

I'm sure locals would be delighted at the prospect of having to display paking badges; or maybe not. Any solution must not create further embuggerances for the local populace. I've said it before, the solution involves creating more parking where and when it is needed. It's easier to provide parking and parking meters than it is to provide busses.

Putting a parking permit sticker in the car window is hardly effort, and these days you probably don't even need that, you can do it by way of "virtual permits" i.e. registering your registration number with the scheme.

It would be to their benefit because fewer tourists would be parking in "their" spaces.  Resident parking schemes are, by and large, quite popular for that sort of reason.

So, you'd be happy to see a large multi-storey at Pen y Pass, then?  (I only jest slightly, the Grossglockner in Austria has exactly that!)

Having said that, a fair part of it could be managed by way of CPZs and pre-booking requirements at particularly busy locations.  For example at Ogwen Cottage they could have some 2-hour spaces free to people just stopping off briefly, first come first served, but the rest all-day and pre-bookable*.  If you go somewhere in search of parking you typically try to find somewhere on a verge or similar if it's full, but if you know it's full you might go somewhere entirely different to avoid the problem.

* If space was available you could perhaps stop in a 2-hour space and "book" there and then at the machine.

Why do you need a timetabled bus service? If you had minibuses just going up and down the valley. They could go as soon as they were full. 
 

The bus service up and down the Llamberis Pass works really well. 
 

Maybe all that is needed is advanced electronic warning signs at each end of the valley - all parking full - please use bus service. 

I'd urge anyone to stick their ideas in the consultation or use one of the other suggested paths. If it's real and thoughtful that's where they'll be looking. Anything here is froth

You mean closing the A5 during the day?  How would that work?

It’s useful to discuss pros and cons and put forward something that’s had some thought and isn’t going to just get dismissed. 

Because it needs to be planned to make connections with other bus services and the train services at Bangor and Betws.  The network is far wider in value than just a P&R.  The best scenario is not bringing a car at all.

Can't believe I am reading this. From personal experience of living for 13 years in Nant Peris it was almost non-existant. A school bus in the morning and another in the afternoon outside the peak season. During the Bank holiday weekends the buses passing through the village were inevitably rammed full of tourists and never or rarely stopped. And nothing very early or after 6. And then some funding was withdrawn so they introduced parking charges in Nant and Llanberis. This charge applied to locals too. At least we had no problem in Ogwen as it was mostly free parking if you avoided the cafe area.

One amusing story about the Llanberis bus. I was walking the dog one bright summer evening about 7 when I spotted a parascender high above Crib y Dsgyl and on my return he landed right beside me just as the bus was approaching. That was good timing I said to Eric Jones. No. he replied, I could see it setting off from Llanberis!

The three times I used it, it was £1. Just seemed to do a back and forward route from Lamberis. Picked it up at Nant Peris, got off at Pen-y-pass. Walked up and down Snowdon to Lamberis. Waited for an hour in Lamberis and picked it up back to Nant Peris. 
 

If it’s only peak times that the parking is an issue then you only need a park and ride seasonal service. Otherwise you’re trying to subsidise a year round full service from a fairly short tourist season. May-Sept.

The bus service should be paid for out of parking charges  

Why would locals get special treatment? 

If you’re visiting any of the points in Ogwen valley, you are not exactly going to be late for a meeting or miss a through connection. 

I think you may be overthinking it somewhat. 
 

A flexible bus running up and down the valley would be able to carry many more people at peak times than one that only runs according to a predetermined schedule. If the bus is full, it may as well leave. If it’s empty then it can sit around waiting for passengers. With electronic communication you could even map the busses locations on an app or accept requests so that the bus could see that a load of people are waiting at a specific stop. 

Because as they live there they do not have a choice whether or not to be there, hence any restrictions/charges are a full time encroachment on their lives.

Those of us who visit the area do have a choice as to if and when we visit, and any visits are short-lived.

Think of it more in line with restricted parking in urban areas, where residents have a permit, but visitors either pay to park or else can't park there. This happens because inner city areas become clogged up with the suburbanites dumping their cars in side streets when they go shopping, as they're too tight to use the pay-and-display car parks - but seemingly not too tight to use the cafes.

But if they’re only applied low season and people who live in those roads get permits why shouldn’t other ‘locals’ pay.
 

I live local to my town and have to pay to park. I don’t live in the town in a controlled zone but my friends who do get permits. 

Everyone gets a choice whether or not to go to Ogwyn cottage don’t they? 

It depends if you think "a quality, usable bus service for Snowdonia" is what is needed, or just a car parking shuttle.  Train services around there are not frequent (the North Wales Coast at Bangor is roughly hourly, while the Conwy Valley at Betws is every three hours) so there is a need to connect to them which necessitates a timetable.  We shouldn't just be thinking of how to improve the parking situation, we should be thinking of how to stop people even needing to bring cars to the Park at all, which is not only to the benefit of the environment but also in terms of making the Park more accessible to people who don't for whatever reason drive at all (and furthermore makes things easier for those who do need to drive, because there are fewer cars so more parking is available to them).

It might be that demand necessitates a pure P&R bus on top, of course, in which case that could run on demand.

In any case "full" is relative with service buses, there is a nominal legal capacity but in practice they tend to just carry a crush load, which means if you were waiting for an average single decker bus to actually be full you might be waiting a long time.

Completed. But I feel like I'm p***ing in the wind

I live in the High Peak.

I don't assume I should get cheaper parking at Stanage than a visitor. What about my local railway station car park?

I remember talking to a council chap when Anglesey council introduced Pay and Display in a couple of places where I launch my kayak from.  He told me the locals were all for it so that it would reduce parking problems and they'd be ok to park more more easily and would get a free pass.

Most were then unhappy when they were told they would have to pay along with everyone else....

I've often got back to the road before or after darkness. Are there really going to be buses catering for people like me? More people having to walk along roads will possibly lead to more accidents unless they have pavements all along the Pass and Ogwen valley (I hope not, and they would have to be policed to stop cars parking over them).

Incidentally I don't have a car and sometimes rely on hitching, I'm not sure how easy that will be post-Covid. Nowadays more people seem to want to drive as just two rather than have 4 in a car as there is none of the waiting around for a second party and sometimes packing all the gear is a limiting factor......or perhaps more climbers are affluent and don't need to share petrol money. 

You do however get free parking* in the big car park in Edale, and all other council owned car parks in the High Peak, with your High Peak residents parking permit. It just happens that Stanage isn't council owned, (and probably not even in the High Peak council area but not 100% on that).

*Before 12am, after 3pm, and all day Sundays

Why would pavements be bad?  Sounds good to me.

In West Lancs where I grew up pretty much all main roads have pavements and often cycle tracks too.  Made getting around on my bike as a kid rather less deadly.

FWIW a fair chunk of the A5 through the Ogwen Valley already does have a pavement anyway.

Well I'd personally find them useful, but they would involve more unsightly tarmac, essentially widening,  at he sides of roads, and as I said would have to be policed to stop cars parking over them as it might be easier than just parking on a high muddy verge. I think the pavement and various alternative parking areas are quite good along the length of Llyn Ogwen, PyP parking is a different matter. Perhaps my main point should be that climbers and walkers might often be able to share more and more people could hitch (unless Covid precaution mentality persists) which would be a win win situation.

I which case no one will be using busses. 

As the busses probably won't start until 9, and will all be parked up by 5 - 10 till 4 on weekends and bank holidays - they'll be completely useless for most people going on the hills anyway, especially as they'll have to drive past where they want to stop to get to the Park & Ride locations in the first place.

That's the real reason no one will be using them.

Agree with fred99s point, Regarding buses cf hitching: the bus driver will obviously be willing to pick up passengers, post-Corvid some car drivers might understandably regard giving a lift to an unknown passenger as an unnecessary risk.

Why would they do that? The Snowdon Sherpa runs much earlier and later than that. 

Was climbing in Imst a couple of years back, as you say the tourist tax was an accepted payment. The benefits it came with were amazing, free uplift on ski lift, free use of public swimming pool, then a number of deals off various attractions etc.

something like this could really help the areas grow. 
However!!!!

1. It needs done properly and not half arsed and expensive like is prevalent in the UK. It would be doomed to fail if you're paying £15 per person ( for example ) and see no benefit, it really should try to reflect those successful European models.

2. We climbers and mountaineers etc will need to learn to share our toys because UK holidaying could see a resurgence.

3. A tourist tax could also assist local mountain rescue teams who unfortunately will see an increase in shouts.

I support a tourist tax regardless of this transport question.  You pay your Council Tax to support local services where you live, but tourist areas need facilities way in excess of what they would without the tourism, so it's quite reasonable to contribute to that.  It's really easy to impose, too, by just requiring accommodation providers to collect it as part of your payment for your stay.  Only issue is day-trippers, but you can just stick it on the parking, which would provide further encouragement to use the provided public transport ticket if following the Swiss model.

At least if you did get a life you'd be able to crow about it!

Good one. Incidentally may I assume "life" is not a misspell?  

There is a phrase in the consultation document. 

Beddgelert forrest is a underused resource.

So does that mean that they are going to knock down trees to build parking / other resources to provide sustainable tourism?

It's brilliant for biking if a little rough in places, and quite underused facility.

Mot by midges, it's not!

I meant lift sorry! Kind of spoils my joke if the whole thing is changed by a typo, what a hypocrite I was!

No need to apologize, I think it adds to the joke.

Anyway I hope I'm not detracting from a thread about an issue that may affect easy access for all of us in one of the most popular climbing areas in the UK.