/ Plane icon

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bpmclimb 09 Aug 2019

Should the plane icon be changed on the destinations forum?

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JLS 09 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

No, I think we should stick with the plane and just remove the snow caps from the Alpine icon.

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Clint86 09 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

Perhaps just put a cross through the logo.

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graeme jackson 09 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

the beer glass and armchair have turned me into a fat bastard. they ought to be banned.

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john arran 09 Aug 2019
In reply to graeme jackson:

... and the Starting Out icon makes me want to go for a wee.

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what the hex 09 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

It could be changed to a hot-air balloon but the so could 'the pub' symbol.

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Ann S 09 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:  

And the rocktalk icon is a bit elitist; its overhanging, for Gods sake. 

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Ciro 09 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

🚆

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profitofdoom 09 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

And the "Walls and Training" icon is a bit Picasso

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teh_mark 09 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

Someone should really oil the gate on the Gear krab.

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mrphilipoldham 09 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

Not sure how two pigeons are relevant to Hilltalk.

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what the hex 09 Aug 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

I can't 'unsee' that

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Ann S 10 Aug 2019
In reply to profitofdoom:

Yep. I keep seeing an artist's palette.

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In reply to bpmclimb:

Currently, on the Lausanne / Paris tgv after attending a climate change conference. The evidence for human made rapid global heating is overwhelming. The task in front of humanity is overwhelming. I am fully aware of the hypocrisy and paradoxes of all our actions. However, we have to start to change things. I am really trying to change my flying and eating habits. Not easy! 

I think it would be good if the climbing community started to focus on how people got to their climbing. For example, sailing, using public transport only. Maybe we need to start thinking about the quality of our journeys and climbing, not just the quantity of peaks climbed. 

I know I can be shot down with the usual arguments but we have got to start somewhere.

Yes, change the plane icon to a ...train? 

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silhouette 10 Aug 2019
In reply to Heartinthe highlands:

I bet you're on expenses though; and that the conference is part of your occupation and not squeezed into precious leave time off work as is the case for most climbing trips.  I am fascinated to read how electric planes are developing though apparently there is a size barrier.

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bpmclimb 10 Aug 2019
In reply to silhouette:

> I bet you're on expenses though; and that the conference is part of your occupation and not squeezed into precious leave time off work as is the case for most climbing trips.  

To be fair, he/she did mention "really trying to change my flying and eating habits". You seem to imply that air travel is only being avoided on this one occasion, due to being on the job, on expenses, etc. I didn't see any basis for that in the post.

FWIW my partner and I are resolved not to take any more flights for climbing trips. It was a tough decision to come to, as we have been enjoying a climbing trip abroad at least once a year, and the convenience and time-saving of going by plane is undeniable; however, given the current situation it's a compromise we feel bound to make.

One effect I'm hoping for, apart from reducing my own impact on the environment, is to inspire others to consider similar lifestyle changes; what I'm hoping for as little as possible of is people trying to construe it as easier for me than for them, in a transparent attempt to justify making no changes at all. 

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In reply to silhouette:

Ha! I hopefully will get some expenses. I am 'chaperoning' a group of Scottish kids on the Fridays for Future School Climate Strike European Conference. About 500 idealistic, passionate and well informed young people from as far afield as Russia, Lebanon and Portugal and all points in between. Greta was there! It is squeezed into my holiday but I did manage to climb Dents du Midi above Champery midweek...so some good climbing done.

I do hope they make electric planes although the train journey is quite pleasant, less stressful and more fun. 

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JLS 10 Aug 2019
In reply to silhouette:

>”I am fascinated to read how electric planes are developing though apparently there is a size barrier.”

I’m surprised we haven’t managed to organise taxiing such that most of that is done by electric means.

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Gordon Stainforth 10 Aug 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> Not sure how two pigeons are relevant to Hilltalk.

Perhaps I have a naughty imagination, but I actually see this:

https://bit.ly/2OKnhIL

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alx 10 Aug 2019
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

At least the ice climbing icon little polar bear face is close on topic

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ian caton 10 Aug 2019
In reply to Heartinthe highlands:

Electric plane to be introduced in the orkneys between Papa-Westray and Westray in 2022.

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Tom V 10 Aug 2019
In reply to bpmclimb:

I'm sure the VAG group would be happy for us to replace it with the winged arrow.

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In reply to ian caton:

Excellent. I once flew around Antarctica with the pilot who had the world record for the shortest commercial flight from Westray to Papa Westray - about 90 seconds with a gale behind him 

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Simon Caldwell 11 Aug 2019
In reply to ian caton:

The problem with electric planes (and cars for that matter) is how is the electricity generated? At the moment, most likely by burning fossil fuels. Are there any figures available to compare emissions from burning gas to create electricity for an electric vehicle, versus burning gas to directly fuel the vehicle? I guess it's not that simple as you also have to factor in production of the battery etc.

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Country_Boy 11 Aug 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Fossil fuel burning engines used in vehicles such as cars and planes are constrained by the need to be lightweight and to operate very flexibly, that is to be started up and shutdown at short notice, and to work well under a variety of loads and speeds.  Efficiency is a secondary consideration.

Large fossil fuel burning electricity generating plants, on the other hand, are generally designed to be efficient.

Finding good comparative figures isn’t easy, but typically a petrol (car engine) is about 20% efficient.  A jet engine is about 30%.  A coal burning electricity generating unit is about 37% (but they are pretty much gone in the UK).  A combined cycle gas turbine generating unit is more like 50%

Hence, the power for electric vehicles is produced at a greater efficiency, so should be greener than burning fossil fuels within mobile engines.  I think it’s also worth pointing out that the proportion of our electricity that comes from solar and wind generation is now quite substantial and growing all the time, so the assertion that energy for electrical vehicles probably comes from burning fossil fuels is a bit shaky.

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Simon Caldwell 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Country_Boy:

Thanks for that. Regarding your last bit - yes, solar and wind is increasing. But if we switch to electric cars and planes, the requirements for electricity will increase hugely. Can non-nuclear carbon-free source cope? Is there a risk of a shortage of the elements needed for batteries?

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duchessofmalfi 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Can non-nuclear carbon-free source cope? - yes

Can future generation cope with the legacy of nuclear power - doubtful

Can the current generation cope with the nuclear levy? - doubtful

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Simon Caldwell 12 Aug 2019
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Which legacy of nuclear power? If you mean waste, then you ought to bring yourself up to date with the current generation of plants.

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Ramblin dave 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Heartinthe highlands:

> Yes, change the plane icon to a ...train? 

I do think that this would actually be a small good thing.

I haven't entirely given up flying and I won't give people a hard time if they've thought seriously about whether they can justify it for any given trip, but it'd be a positive step if we could start to get away from the current situation where a lot of people seem to see hopping on a cheap flight as a basic necessity or as a consequence-free thing that they do by default without even considering the alternatives.

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Pan Ron 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> I haven't entirely given up flying and I won't give people a hard time if they've thought seriously about whether they can justify it for any given trip

Still seems a little demanding.  What about those of us who have never owned a car, cycle or use public transport exclusively, are largely vegetarian, with no kids and who subscribe to green energy suppliers....but won't think twice about a flight a few times a year?  

The focus on air travel seems a bit ott.  Its as if you can keep on with everyday wasteful practices, or work for companies with dubious ethics or environmental impact, and pretty much pass under the radar.  But choose to fly and its as if an environmental crime has taken place.   It does feel as if people are claiming a lot of virtue in forgoing things they have grown bored of anyway, whereas actual painful change is maybe less likely to be undertaken.

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duchessofmalfi 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Yeh, right!

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Toerag 13 Aug 2019
In reply to Pan Ron:

>  The focus on air travel seems a bit ott.  Its as if you can keep on with everyday wasteful practices, or work for companies with dubious ethics or environmental impact, and pretty much pass under the radar.  But choose to fly and its as if an environmental crime has taken place.   It does feel as if people are claiming a lot of virtue in forgoing things they have grown bored of anyway, whereas actual painful change is maybe less likely to be undertaken.

The problem with flying is that it's a lot of CO2 very quickly. A return from Leeds to Alicante is 0.7 tonnes CO2 according to the calculator I just used. A 2015 ford focus seems to put out ~110g/km CO2 on average. So that flight to Alicante is equivalent to 6,363 kilometres driving.

If I take my personal situation of getting my family of 4 to Bavaria to visit my wife's relations and get a bit of mountain time in:- return flight from Guernsey to MUC via LGW is 2.5 tonnes CO2. I drive a 1.3litre petrol minivan which also puts out 110grm CO2/km. So my family trip is equivalent to me doing 22thousand kilometres, or about 3-4 years' worth of driving.  Nipping to the Dolomites for a long weekend of VF instead of doing Snowdonia or the Peak as promogulated in Trail magazine has a massive CO2 cost.

Putting a 5.25Kw PV system on my roof would save 1.8tonnes CO2 per year and cost me thousands of pounds. It's cheaper not to fly so often to seriously reduce my carbon footprint.

Post edited at 13:30
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jimtitt 13 Aug 2019
In reply to Toerag:

The plane still went to Alicante......😀

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mbh 13 Aug 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

They produce less waste per kWh? How? 

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mbh 13 Aug 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

Not if enough flyers choose not to fly in it.

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jimtitt 13 Aug 2019
In reply to mbh:

Simplistic, like comparing the fuel CO2 for a trip to Alicante and ignoring the CO2 cost of the motorway there.

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Ramblin dave 13 Aug 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

> Simplistic, like comparing the fuel CO2 for a trip to Alicante and ignoring the CO2 cost of the motorway there.

It might be simplistic, but it's fundamentally the case that as a civilisation we need far fewer planes in the air if we don't want to watch the world literally burning in front of our eyes, and individuals choosing to fly less is one thing that might actually be a step towards to achieving that.

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mbh 13 Aug 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

What if you just don't go to Alicante?

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jimtitt 13 Aug 2019
In reply to mbh:

> What if you just don't go to Alicante?


I've never flown to Alicante, I sailed there.

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mbh 13 Aug 2019
In reply to jimtitt:

From Munich?

From wherever, to wherever, sailing, I'm guessing, isn't an option at current volumes of travel, let alone current lifestyles, and I speak as someone who flew to SE Asia earlier this year.

I just don't know what the embodied carbon is of a mile of motorway, or, when you include it over its lifetime, plus those of the cars and all the other paraphernalia of driving, what the carbon cost is per passenger mile of driving, and how that compares to the equivalent cost for flying, to a destination of your choice. How the total emissions due to each mode of transport is influenced by the building of the infrastructure in the first place I also don't know. Perhaps you do?

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jimtitt 13 Aug 2019
In reply to mbh:

From Swanage

I doubt the promoters of changing the plane symbol have any idea either.

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