UKC

Pex Hill Quarry

Can anyone confirm if the stag that was recently executed in Bootle is the Pex Hill Stag? Concerns were raised on UKC last year regarding the destruction of its habitat.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/27/rare-white-stag-killed-by-p...

This one, you mean?

Sounds like a complete over-reaction to shoot it, I must say.

"But the police said that there was “no option to let the deer wander as it could be a danger to motorists and members of the public in the area”, particularly as the hours of darkness approached."

I can think of far bigger dangers to life and limb in Bootle as darkness approaches.

It does seem that the go to option for the police when it comes to stray animals is to shoot them for some reason.

I feel like that might be a bit unfair. The BBC article has:

So whether or not it was the right option I don't think it was the go-to option.

Full police Statement.

https://www.merseyside.police.uk/news/merseyside/news/2021/september/statem...

Folk get over emotional over cute animals, they could perhaps search up the number of people injured through animal collisions. It's not as though deer are an endangered species either. 

My concern is that the dead stag is the same one that has been resident at Pex Hill Quarry.  This years clean up of Pex has been great for climbers but has greatly reduced the foliage used as cover by the animal. 

How many is that in the UK, and England specifically?

I've no idea, but a deer running around an urban area will likely end up some caring driver swerving to avoid bambi and ploughing into something or someone more seriously, or they hit the deer and it dies a slow painful death. 

The magical world where the police transquilise it and it's released back elsewhere living happily ever after is best reserved for movies. 

What about a big net or a bolas around the legs,  no cowboys around with a lasso?

Don’t know about the UK stats but according to Wikipeadia, in the US…

”In 2000, of the 6.1 million lightweight motor vehicle collisions in the US, 1 million involved animal-vehicle collisions. Deer–vehicle collisions lead to about 200 human deaths and $1.1 billion in property damage every year.[2]”

Brits tend to get over emotional about animals, If it had been a drunken investment banker that had been shot there would have been less of an outpouring of emotion!

Doesn't really work like that. Deer are highly stressed animals, that's what keeps them alive in the wild. But it also makes them a very difficult one to handle, once they start thrashing around they can easily injure themselves. It's also why they're difficult to farm.

Pex is at the other end of the M57 motorway to Bootle, and then some - about 8 miles. Maybe it hitched a lift?

Seems unlikely, Bootle is quite a long way from Pex and moreover it would have had to pass through lots of other areas first. Would have made more sense if it was spotted in Widnes or something.

Apparently, Sunday lunch down the Masons, is going to be something special this week...

Haven’t a clue for England, but for Scotland Nature Scot 2013 to 2015 report on the subject found there were in excess of 4600 deer vehicle collisions, the report acknowledges that this is likely to be a under estimate as there is no legal requirement for drivers to report a deer collision. They then project the likely annual range coming to a 4000 to 12000 figure (ie a wide uncertainty range). Human injuries are in excess of 120 per year. Highland has at least two known killed or serious injuries due to deer per year.

Deer numbers have increased 50% in Scotland over the past five decades…..no government has got to grips with the sporting estates.

Worse some estates and keepers feed the deer immediately  adjacent to highways every winter, I can think of several.

So deer are a hazard.

Apparently the stag ended up in Bootle via the disused Cheshire lines railway line, I often ride my bike from Gatacre to Bootle, iv never gone any further south but I believe they start in halewood not far from Cronton!

Errr. Right. So we own the world and habitats of all animals, everywhere on Earth that they intersect with humans?

'ck off, you arrogant human-centric idiot.

Yep, the line/cycleway starts in Halewood which is actually about 4 miles from Cronton. Trouble is the northern part of the line runs through scallyland. Quote from local climber when West Derby cutting was mentioned 'No one can hear you scream down there...' You are a brave boy riding your pushbike through there without air cover and someone riding shotgun. Bambi? No chance. It's (was, unfortunately) most likely an albino Fallow deer stag from Knowsley Park. The Pex thing is just daft.

I don’t know, the Stag has managed to remain well hidden in the quarry for at least three years, with only a handful of sightings. It’s not beyond belief that it concealed itself well enough to reach Bootle. Very sad if it turns out to be the Pex Stag. 

Most of us are fairly human centric, and when push comes to shove will value the life of a human over that of an animal, or several animals.

If you don't then all power to you. Personally I wouldn't fancy trying to defend the decision to run down a small child in order to save a few ducklings, faced with the choice, to a judge.

Stopping the deer from being hit by a car and dying slowly was a bad thing? 

How would you solve it in a timely manner, with the least stress to the animal. Many complained about the police's action, none had a plausible alternative. 

Would you preemptively cull the ducklings on the off chance that they might try to cross a fast road next to a school bus stop? Why don't I go and shoot now the aggressive Audi driver who might kill me on my commute tomorrow? They're unquestionably a danger to motorists and to pedestrians.

At the end of the day, a human has made the decision to switch off the life of a sentient being that breathes, and feels, and lives in exactly the same way that we do, by the exact same biological marvel that is life, and they've done it ultimately because it's an inconvenience to them to allow it to continue to go about its business. People seem to be really shit at empathising with things that aren't human, and that is utterly rubbish. Life is life. Taking life away when it isn't absolutely and unavoidably required is abhorrent. I don't personally care whether it's a human life, or a deer life, or a duckling life.

I'm sorry for my language, but yesterday really got to me. Humans are rubbish.

We are all just flukes of evolution of no significance.

You still haven't suggested what should have been done? If left it wouldn't have ended well for the deer. 

I'm so so sure. There are lots of deer in Nottingham and they seem to travel long distances unnoticed and cause little trouble.  Although I do consider a deer collision the most likely danger on my motorbike. There's a herd of fallow deer in the wood between me and M1 Trowell Services. Nothing to stop them reaching the M1. There was a herd of full size red deer in my garden recently. Maybe from Wollaton Park ?

Then we should reintroduce Lynx and Wolves, the natural predators of deer, so they can be eaten alive in the natural way rather than face a trained marksman. Nature is a grim business where the weak get eaten. Only rubbish humans try to subvert this with fancy ideas of 'morals' 'ethics' and 'compassion'.

I'm at work — much like most of the other climbers who could otherwise be on the Cromlech at 16:30 on a Tuesday afternoon, I suspect. I'd hate to short-change you with a rushed reply, so unfortunately you'll have to be patient.

I completely fail to see the relevance of this.

Yes. We should question, really, where the wolves and the lynx went to begin with.

Nature works how nature works. It's nature; it's natural. Wolves and lynx don't tend to kill things because they're a nuisance. In fact, I'm not aware of many animals on Earth that kill things other than out of basic necessity. I don't think it's subverting nature to respect life in all its forms; why shouldn't I extend to other living creatures the attitude we have towards fellow humans? Or can I start lining up the aforementioned motorists for culling by trained marksman? I'm not into double standards.

"In fact, I'm not aware of many animals on Earth that kill things other than out of basic necessity."

You haven't met many cats have you? They frequently "break" their "toys"

By all means contribute to the debate. I get what you're saying about the value of life. But people might take your views more seriously if you avoided crass generalisations like this one. I know some pretty amazing humans actually. Was Nelson Mandela a rubbish human? Martin Luther King? 

Predators definitely kill other predators to stop competition (or because they’re a nuisance), which is what happened to the wolves and the lynx.  Nature works how nature works I guess...

It's not disrespecting nature to kill an animal before it hurts itself, because it's too far from its habitat and no stress free way of coaxing it back. 

Do you think they consciously decide to inflict cruelty for funsies? Do you think the feral cat that's not fed a diet of Felix will go on to not then eat their 'toy'? Do you think that they have control of their fundamental hunting instinct even when they are fed a diet of Felix?

Do you think humans have a fundamental and uninhibitable hunting instinct? Do you think there's an obvious difference? Do you think cat behaviour justifies human lack of empathy for other life?

We have two farm cats, always food available indoors, they have no issue with catching mice then releasing them for a 1m head start before pouncing again, or climbing trees putting paws through nest box holes.

A fox will kill a whole hen house then trot off with one. Wolves kill other wolves, wolves also happily kill ten sheep then eat one. Apex predators in the oceans often play with prey seals before killing them.

Nature is cruel, shooting a deer in an urban environment doesn't come close. 

No. In evolutionary terms only societal pressures, the threat of prison, conditioning of right and wrongs since childhood etc..  is stopping primal human instinct.. look what happens during wars, disasters, famines and so on, it doesn't take much for survival to kick in.  

There are people hitting or stabbing each other just to tank up their cars. We are all simply animals.  

And will then come back for the others if left undisturbed.

I'm sorry to all, I really don't have the time today to reply at length in this topic. I can summarise my views on the issue pretty succinctly: I don't think the natural behaviour of animals in nature justifies human behaviour. Why would it?

Shooting a deer in an urban environment does not come close to the cruelty of nature, no. But I think it's pretty gratuitous. And I think it's disappointing that people don't value life when it's not human. It's still life. It's still a biological marvel, and it's still a sentient being that feels emotion just as acutely as you and I.

Talking about it being justifiable to kill animals before they seriously hurt themselves is somewhat missing the point that it's absolute conjecture that they will go on to seriously hurt themselves. Killing things just shouldn't be the default option. It should very much be the last resort. Regardless of what it is that is being killed.

At the end of the day, the stag has been shot for daring to wander down a residential street. I don't personally think that that is okay.

TBF no one has even attempted to answer my original question. This thread has taken on a life of its own. 

Don't motorways have fences along the sides?

Nothing that would stop a deer getting into or out of the services area.

Wollaton Park is on the other side of the M1.  But I don't expect armed response anytime soon.

Welcome to UKC 😁

However I am intrigued, the Pex Hill Stag - was it actually in the quarry (not been there for years), presumably it could get out whenever it wanted and wasn't confined to just that space.

It's just someone being daft. 

Have I gone for hook line and sinker ☹

Homogenisation rather than 'clean up'.

Hey, don't complain, I think we can count ourselves darned lucky that the police here get their rocks off by shooting fluffy animals when you consider the alternative! (swivels eyes Americawards)