UKC

so thoughts on this please...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8633058.stm

Should the bodies be left in the place they fell, or should they be moved.

I like the idea of cleaning all the old rope, tents and cylinders etc.. but not so sure on the bodies.

In reply to Little Brew: Why not. Surely dead bodies are litter?

In reply to Removed User: well... yes and no.. i see Nepal's theory on bodies being rubbish therefore littering its mountain. but i also see it as a bit um... what's the word for mean to move a dead body from its place of rest?!? so in a way i am for and against moving them.

In reply to Little Brew:

So if someone keels over in the street and dies we should just leave them on the pavement?

In reply to Removed User: ok.. out of context... the previous reason for leaving them on Everest was the risk to others to return them to ABC or BC. so i guess i agree with Nepal for removing them, but not at the risk to others.

so your bod in the street can safely be moved to the correct place to be burred/cremated due to the lack of altitude risk and the ability to clear persons/traffic safely with minimal risk to others.

In reply to Little Brew:

Yes but it appears this work group is comprised of willing volunteers/employees fully versed in the risks involved?

In reply to Removed User: but still a risk... looking back to 1996 and how the weather changed suddenly and killed so many... there is still a risk.

all volunteers i agree, but there is still a small risk to there lives for the recovery of those that have lost there's already.

In reply to Little Brew: Chomolangma or Sagarmatha - whichever you prefer, is sacred to the native people and is not just a mountain for tourists to climb.

Surely treating a sacred place with care and passion is the first thing to do. Cleaning up litter and removing exposed dead would be a good thing. The bodies can be placed near the mountain for respect to be paid.

We don't pile up dead bodies in the tiers of a church.

<ducks from impending wrath>

In reply to Little Brew:

"The team plans to bring down the body of Swiss climber Gianni Goltz to base camp, where they have been given permission by Goltz's family to cremate it."

Better than lying up on the mountain in my view. But what would I know?

In reply to Little Brew:

So you think that any form of gainful employment should carry no risk?

I would suggest to you that the risk involved in a cleanup operation like this is no different to the risk escorting a paying customer to the summit.

I also suggest to you that one of the above activities is substantially more worthwhile than the other...

In reply to Removed User:

i agree with you that the cleaning up is worthwhile... you are taking my thoughts to the extreme here... i was mealy saying that i both agree and disagree with the removing of the bodies, but also see the reason they are doing this and fully agree with why, but worry about the risk.

i agree that there is risk in everything, some more risky than others. if i am honest i disagree with the pay to achieve the summit packages you can get. which is why 2 of the men are on that mountain, if not more. but again, it is a job that people are willing to do, and Nepal and china allow it.

i wish them well in there clean up, and a safe journey back home.

In reply to Removed User:

Oh look. You're being obnoxious and argumentative. Again.

In reply to kidA: Not really, I just can't see any negative here whatsoever.

In reply to Removed User:
>

Joking aside I saw precisely that in India. There was a dead man lying on the pavement outside our hotel when I went out in the morning. He was still lying there when I came back in the late afternoon, but was eventually moved overnight - unless the vultures did it !

In reply to kidA: i didn't see this as argumentative, i thought it was a good discussion really, one that in a way i agree with! good to have a discussion for once, rather than an out and out flaming at someone!

In reply to Little Brew:

KidA has a habit of casting his omnipotent judgement about the place.

In reply to Removed User: and note he has an anon-a-mouse profile page.

In reply to Little Brew: You make a fair point, but where as Everest was once a deserted and desolate place, it is now very much the domain of the man or woman on the street with £100,000 in their pocket. There is surely a point at which time bodies are quite literally littering the mountainside. There are also the relatives to consider.

In reply to EeeByGum:
In some respects the bodies on the Mountain serve as a valuable reminder to commercial clients that no amount of money or equipment can fully insulate you from the forces of nature. It is also possible that those who have died on the mountain might prefer to remain, if the wishes of the deceased come into this.
All that said there must come a point when a popular but dangerous mountain such as Everest will become unduly littered with dead climbers, the numbers are added to annually it seems. The risk, expense and effort of moving bodies (particularly from above the South Col or High Camp on the North) is considerable and is certainly something that needs to be weighed up carefully ...creating more deaths on the mountain by attempting to tidy it up would be a tragic irony.

..creating more deaths on the mountain by attempting to tidy it up would be a tragic irony.

so they should just let it keep being used as a dump for all those rich americans with summit fever and no respect for the mountain environment?
I totally agree with the removal of bodies IF the family agree as in Gianni Goltz case.
What is the point of a body to serve as a 'reminder' to those who pass it that no money can insulate you from injury/death if a large majority of the people who climb it are people with more moeny than sense.
People should be well versed in what can happen to them otherwise they shouldn't be there in the first place!

In reply to Little Brew:
I think this is a fantastic development, I hope the people involved are handsomely rewarded from the money that climbers pay to climb the mountain.
Re. moving dead bodies. it makes a lot of sense to move them if possible. people have different ideas about such things in different places so to some it's not a big deal.
A while back i found out that the natural history museum in Vienna is is the largest final resting place in Austria. They kept running out of space to bury people so after a while the dug up the old ones and put them in a draw in the natural history museum. It was quite a strange feeling wandering around the place late in the evening half drunk.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

No. If bodies can be safely removed and respectfully treated then I'd support this. What I am saying is this should not be carried out if it causing undue risk to Sherpa lives. Moving a substantial object that is frozen to the mountain at over 8000m requires a huge amount of effort, and potentially puts the clear up crew at risk. In the article it says that those partaking in the clear up will carry 20kg maximum loads ...this means it will take at least 4 people to remove each body.


Totally agree that people attempting such a climb should be well versed in the potential consequences, I'm sure most are, despite the negative publicity generated by the commercialisation of Everest. For those that do have more money than sense a sobering reminder may not be entirely a bad thing.

Lets get one thing clear, if the locals dont like to have dead bodies around theyr mountains, the view of the rest of the world or the families dont matter. That said, I think its good to bring down the rubbish, but can see why dead bodies should be left as a reminder.

In reply to Little Brew:

I think it's a good thing, I wish some of the park fees for Kilimanjaro would be used to clear that rubbish tip up. Of course, what I really wish is that people wouldn't drop stuff on the floor in the first place.

As far as the bodies are concerned, I think that it's good they're being removed. I don't think it's disrespectful, certainly no more so than digging up bodies eg, the Egyptians, who were very carefully buried.