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Mont Blanc - final thoughts before booking a guide.

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 FockeWulf 07 Mar 2023

So tomorrow I’m going to make a final decision about whether or not I will book a 5 day guided ascent of Mont Blanc.

Im going to be as candid as possible about my thoughts and ability so I get the best possible advice before departing with nearly £5,000.

Firstly, I’ve been up to 3900m without any significant problems with altitude other than a minor but noticeable effect on my stamina. The route was a slog from Cervina over Rosss Glacier then got to an unexposed “summit” called Passo di Ventina Sud. (11km with about 1900m gain in altitude - took 7 hours (but we were extremely tired on about 3 hours sleep and had a few drinks the night beforehand + I hadn’t done any fitness training whatsoever)

The Mont Blanc course consists of 2 days acclimatisation doing a traverse of Petite Forche, Tete Balnce and potentially Aiguilles du Tour.

The first thing that struck me was that these are super exposed scrambles (from what I can tell frim the limited amount of photos and videos I’ve foun)  (possibly in the grade II or III) and I am still quite nervous with exposure having done climbs like Tryfan North face - (but having said that I can push through that level of exposure and would be confident with it)

I do feel like this level of exposure is a bit over the top for training (go on, shoot me down!🤣) and I hope it wouldn’t be a game changer. I think it makes more sense to do Gran Paradiso like some other guides (out my budget) where there appears to be only a short exposed section. 
 

Moving on to Mont Blanc itself, I’m not overly concerned about the route from Tete Rouse to Goûter, may feel a bit hairy but research has pointed towards this section being like Tryfan.

The final part (Bosses Arête) is the next point of concern. How steep are those drops either side? I can manage Striding Edge (Hellvellyn) no real problem, don’t like the idea of Crib Gogh (Snowdon) BUT the Bosses Arête has nice smooth flat snow on it which I would feel more comfortable with. Again, I’ve watched various videos of the Bosses Arête and sometimes I think it looks fine to me and then other times it looks terifying. 

I’m looking for some good feedback for consideration. I think sone people can be either “definitely don’t do it” to “you’ll have no problem” - which is fine - but some more in-depth advise would be greatly appreciated.

Final subsidiary point: I’m not sure why Alpine/Mountaineering grades don’t accommodate more for exposure. In fact, it’s rarely even discussed. I think it’s quite an important point with should be discussed more in depth.

Post edited at 21:36
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 echo34 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

I don’t think you’ll enjoy the Bosses ridge. it’s quite narrow, you’ll probably be tired and there are often groups passing. If you struggled on Tryfan this will feel very steep and exposed. Similarly Petite Fourche and Tete Blanche arent particularly exposed, so this makes me think you might not have a good time. They feel bigger than uk routes, as does everything in the alps. I think you might be better off getting more comfortable on steep ground before committing to this as you don’t want to be having a moment on a steep narrow alpine ridge, particularly one as crowded as Blanc

Is this a 1:1 trip? As it seems very expensive for 5 days guided.

Post edited at 21:52
 Rob Exile Ward 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

I don't quite get this idea of a guided ascent of Mt Blanc, I don't get it at all. Why not get a bit more experience, a bit more confidence, and do it with mates? The money saved on guides could pay for a lot of training trips...

When we did it we had a blast, but we did have a fair bit of experience and confidence; and I agree with Echo, the exposure - especially on the Bosses - is significant (if you came off and failed to  brake you would die); as a single party it would be straightforward, but you won't be; there will be people on it, not all of whom are competent, and all of whom you will need to pass, either in ascent, descent, or both.  

7
 Hooo 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

I haven't done MB, but like the previous poster I'm confused how it's costing you £5k. I've just checked out a company I've used before and their 7 day MB including Gran Paradiso is under £2k ( not Inc flights, food etc.) They do 1:1 upgrades that are still well under £4k all in.

OP FockeWulf 07 Mar 2023
In reply to Hooo:

sorry it’s for me and my girlfriend (hence why it’s £5k)

I wouldn’t be nervous on Tryfan anymore, but I remember distinctly feeling a bit off when I first did it. Done it twice now with good confidence.

 mcawle 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Exposure is subjective, even by the vagueness of climbing grades.

I don’t think there’s any way to answer the questions you have, or not in a way that you should base your decisions on.

What other alpine routes have you done? Building a base of F and shorter PD routes would give you a better idea of where you are at in a comparable environment. UK summer scrambles are not the same thing.

Alternatively if in doubt but set on Mont Blanc, then perhaps a guide is in order at this point - but as others have said, £5k seems expensive, at least for one person. What course are you looking at, and with which provider?

1
 mountainbagger 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

https://www.frostguiding.co.uk/course/14/Introduction_to_Alpine_Climbing.ht...

Something like this might be a better intro to the Alps. You could ask them about a Mont Blanc extension or just do this to see if you like it then book another trip to Mont Blanc another time.

I did something similar with my girlfriend (now wife) and we just stayed on after the end of the week and climbed our own objective using the skills we'd learnt. We had a great time, very memorable!

We still haven't climbed Mont Blanc 😁

 mcawle 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

P.s. for what it’s worth, the Bosses Ridge is somewhat exposed as others have said, and crucially it’s in a way that is reliant on having confident footwork. Plus navigating around or being navigated around by other parties, the potential for it to be windy and quite cold even in summer, etc.

I haven’t been via Tete Rousse/Gouter as I went up via Bionnassay so can’t speak to the exposure there but my understanding is that the Great Couloir is hazardous at any point and that probably forms the main hazard before you get high.

So it’s also important to consider how confident you are managing other hazards and weather in the alpine environment apart from exposure.

OP FockeWulf 07 Mar 2023
In reply to mcawle:

It’s 2 people (just under £5k - (I think 5,180€.)

Chanonix Mont Blanc Guides.

There was also talk about a new crevasse opening up on the way to/on the bosses which has made the climb more technical.

Ive not really found much meaningful photos or descriptions of this. 

 Mark Haward 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Wow, £5,000 does seem a lot. There are many providers, the link below is to a company who I have only heard great things about and comes in at less than £2,000. ( I have no affiliation whatsoever with them ).

http://www.icicle-mountaineering.ltd.uk/mont%2Bblanc%2Bguide%2Bcourse.html

Another that has a great reputation is;

https://www.jagged-globe.co.uk/climb/course/i/alps+mont+blanc.html

    The acclimatisation peaks are not just to help you to acclimatise to the altitude. They are also so you get a realistic understanding of what is involved. They help you and your guide get a realistic evaluation of your fitness, skills, equipment and response to the alpine environment including to exposure. This helps you decide if you are ready for Mont Blanc yet.

    The peaks you mention; Fourche, Tete Blanche and Tour are straightforward in alpine terms, not especially exposed. Go Pro footage in particular can make things seem a lot more exposed than they actually are. These are excellent peaks to learn, develop your skills and acclimatise on. Personally I would also recommend ascending another 4,000 metre peak before attempting Mont Blanc. MB is another 800 metres higher again.

    The Gouter Ridge is a long mostly grade 1 scramble ( possibly a couple of slightly harder sections ). There is a lot more loose rock around and it is a lot longer than North Ridge of Tryfan. However, there are some cables if you need them - remember though that you will be descending that way too. Also, depending on when you go and the mountain conditions this section may be dry rock or could have some snow and even ice on it.

   The Bosses Arete can be easy snow but can also be harder ice depending on current mountain conditions. The exposure does not really compare to Striding Edge, it is much more narrow and exposed with much bigger drops than Striding.  Nor Crib Goch really which is largely horizontal and is steep on one side but not the other. Most people do not worry too much about the exposure on the Bosses on the way up - they usually feel it more on the way down. However, you will have done the acclimatisation peaks beforehand so you will know better what to expect and also you will have a guide to keep you as safe as possible and to encourage you.

  Here are two possible alternatives you may not have thought of assuming you are still focussed on Mont Blanc.

1) Consider going on a much cheaper ( approx. £1,000 ) alpine introductory course. Then you will know much more what to expect on Mont Blanc and whether it is for you or not before you commit.

2) After the course you could then join with some friends or a club ( or another course or guided trip if you prefer ) to extend your alpine peak experience at a pace that suits you. You could then consider doing Mont Blanc without a guide ( or with if you prefer ).

    I don't hold with either the  “definitely don’t do it” to “you’ll have no problem" responses because I don't know your capabilities. Only you can make this decision. I hope this and other responses help.

  Regards exposure, the Alps are big mountains with big exposure, with experience you can learn to 'acclimatise' to this. Choosing to do more UK grade 1 or 2 scrambles can help you with this, as will doing easy alpine peaks and building up your alpine experience. Guidebooks will point out if routes or sections are especially exposed. Response to exposure is a very personal thing and hard to quantify or grade. I've known people freak out on long steep grassy slopes on Exmoor and others who positively relish highly exposed technical routes.

   Whatever you decide to do make sure you have fun and perhaps do a follow up post here to let us all know how you got on.

    

 RuthW 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

I did Mont Blanc a fair few years ago (a traverse, so descended the Gouter route).  The Grand Couloir section is harder and probably a bit longer than Crib Goch or the north ridge of Tryfan.  There is also a bit of pressure to keep going and not rest due to the rockfall risk.  Don't forget you need to feel ok coming down it too.  Not sure of the traverse route per se on Tete Blanche - but climbed this and the Aguilles Du Tour and it was all straight forward - the scrambling was easier than the Grand Couloir.

Gran Paradiso is an easy ascent but the last rocky section is probably a bit more tricky than Aguille du tour/ Tete Blanche.

Both Grand Paradiso and Tete blanche/Aguilles du tour are decent warm up options for Month Blanc.

Bosses arete is probably about as narrow as Crib Goch but snow covered.  It is more exposed than striding edge  - there with a narrow track across the top - but you had to step off this when someone was coming the other way.

A guide will provide you with a feeling of security and safety.

 Webster 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

You seem to have a strange calibration of exposure to me... the petite forche and tet blanche may well have some very short sections of technical climbing on them (but from memory they were very very easy), but they have very little exposure. you are only a few 10s of meters off of the glacier. i havent done GP, but from photos of the route i would say that it is MUCH more exposed, you have a 1000m drop on one side!

You would probably be fine on MB, but would you enjoy it? i dont think so. you are probably better off spending your money else where and gaining some more skill and experience first rather than just trying to get the bucket list tick

OP FockeWulf 07 Mar 2023
In reply to Mark Haward:

Would it be ok to crawl across the bosses? 😂

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OP FockeWulf 07 Mar 2023
In reply to Mark Haward:

Thought I might mention that I’ve also done Zugspitze (Reintal route) - I was initially conceded about the last 300m of via ferrata. But when I got there I didn’t use any of my via Ferrarata kit and felt completely at ease. Even stood on the summit with a significant drop down the side. But it’s not very narrow and it’s only a few meters to get past, even so, there was no signs of vertigo and had no problem going past (literally about 50 people) all scrambling to get to the summit. 

 Nimax 07 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

What other Alpine routes have you done? How much experience do you and your girlfriend have? These things also should be taken into account. If you feel that it will be more comfortable and safer with the guides, then go for it. 

OP FockeWulf 07 Mar 2023
In reply to Nimax:

Zugspitze (Summer conditions via Reintal)

Monte Emilius (Summer conditions)

Passo di Venitina Sud (was supposed to do Breithorn to get a bit of snow ridge experience but had to turn around because we ran out of time and it was off season so would have been stuck in Cervina with no hotel or transport). Went roped up due to glacier travel, but no snow meant that all the crevasses were exposed and easily seen)

Finally, attempted Hoher Göll (first Alpine attempt) in Spring (snowy conditions) a short walk across a 40degree snow slope with use of ice axe/crampons. Was slightly nervous but nothing that has stuck in my mind as particularly scary. The drop was only about 100meters. Made it to Khelstein around 1800m (where the the eagles nest) but turned around because the via Ferrarata cables across the Mannlgrat ridge were under snow plus we got there too late around 2pm and the warmth of the day had started causing melting snow and small rock falls. Wasn’t particularly confident attempting first alpine route in these conditions and the decent down the Alpaltal is prone to avalanche. Admittedly the mannlgrat right seemed quite intimidating.

Post edited at 23:46
 VictorM 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

If I were you I'd put my money into an alpine introductory course covering glacier travel and low-level scrambling to get a good understanding of F to PD+ mountaineering.

This will enable you and your SO to build crucial experience at altitude and with things such as exposure and rope management. Significantly, the exposure will be without the false sense of security a VF lanyard provides. 

Subsequently, having this training will provide you with a much clearer sense of your abilities and limitations - a large part of any competent alpinist's character. 

Then, you will be able to choose wether to either drop a large part of your savings into a guided MB ascent or wether you're able to do it yourself. 

 ExiledScot 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

It's clear you're chasing a summit tick that's beyond your skill set, experience and comfort zone. If it wasn't MB these 4000ers wouldn't really be on your radar at all. Spend the £5k on the type of time in the hills you'll enjoy. 

Edit. Blunt yes, but no point in wishy washy advice..

Post edited at 07:34
 Tom Briggs 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Given what you’ve written I’d recommend getting some more experience on snow/ice before attempting Mont Blanc. The Bosses Ridge had a pitched section on it last summer, where you had to front point onto the face below the ridge. Obviously it may be different this summer, but it’s not just walking in crampons and as others have said it’s very exposed.

 steelbru 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Your initial post and replies was all about how you deal with exposure and scrambling. Then you happen to mention your girlfriend will also be on the trip, but have given no indication of her level of experience - the least experienced, and confident person in a group is the limiting factor. So is your gf more experienced/confident than you ?

OP FockeWulf 08 Mar 2023
In reply to steelbru:

yes she is.

 MG 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Save your £5k. 

Go to the Alps, perhaps pay for a couple of days guiding 

Do some smaller peaks 

Enjoy them, rather than trophy hunting 

Do MB in a few years 

Don't break up with your gf

And, exposure is a bit like the deep end of a swimming pool. Beyond a certain point you'll hurt yourself if you fall so it doesn't make any difference.

Post edited at 08:36
 BALD EAGLE 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Hi FockeWulf and good luck with your plan to ascend Mont Blanc via the Gouter route. I tend to agree with what most folks have already said and maybe it would be worth saving you some money and aquiring the alpine skills as it is more fun and satisfying to go with a trusted mate or your girlfriend. Even though the Gouter is technically a very straightforward route in good conditions, it should not be underestimated due to the high altitude, snow conditions and the spectacular but very exposed Bosses Ridge which leads to the summit!

As a shameless plug you can see a short vid I made showing all the main landmarks + features including the Bosses Ridge here: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRBF_y3URI0&t=68s

Bon chance and hope this helps! 

Dave

Post edited at 08:54

 Bob Aitken 08 Mar 2023
In reply to BALD EAGLE:

A classy video, but perhaps not very helpful to FockeWulf and his anxieties, in that it doesn't show the ascent to the Gouter Hut with the hazards of the Grand Couloir or the scrambling on loose ground above it, nor the recent dramatic changes and crevasse development on the rise to the Bosses arete.

Having followed and tried to help the OP in his earlier threads about Monte Emilius etc.,  I fear I share the views of ExiledScot and Tom Briggs.   A more gradual progression and development of techniques and confidence - particularly to get comfortable in crampons on steep exposed ground - would give FW much better prospects for a safe and enjoyable ascent of Mont Blanc in another year or two.

 pec 08 Mar 2023
In reply to BALD EAGLE:

Just out of curiosity (I've already climbed MB via another route and have no wish to climb the Gouter Ridge), is that photo indicative of the exposure on the route or is it more exposed elsewhere because it doesn't look particularly exposed.

Had a quick skim through the video and again didn't see anything that looked unusual in terms of exposure.

 mcawle 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Thanks. I wouldn't view this as a good grounding for attempting Mont Blanc as they appear to be quite different routes and without some of the challenges of MB via the Gouter. Weather, snow/ice underfoot, rockfall, exposure, navigating in poor visibility, potential route complications with that crevasse, the altitude - big difference between 3900m and 4800m - and just the length of the day, particularly where you mention running out of time on a few of the things you've done.

It's not that it can't be done, of course, but it sounds like your current experience doesn't really map onto a lot of the things you may need to contend with on the route.

Another elephant in the room might be hut availability on the Gouter, depending on your dates - I've heard it's not always easy to find free spaces, although again I have no direct experience.

Generally speaking if you are thinking about Mont Blanc unguided I'd think that getting some F and PD routes done first to build up experience, assuming you already have knowledge of baseline alpine technique (glacier crossing/rescue, snow belays, basic rock protection, etc.). Some examples might include:

  1. Shorter F routes below 4000m - the acclimatisation routes in the guided package you're looking at are good options (Aiguille du Tour, Tete Blanche, Petit Fourche) - also the lower routes in Arolla are meant to be good although I haven't done them, e.g. Pigne de la Lé, Pigne d'Arolla
  2. Longer F routes at or around 4000m, e.g. Breithorn or Allalinhorn normal routes, maybe Pyramid Vincent or Gran Paradiso (from Emmanuelle Vittorio hut), Alphubel normal route
  3. Some PD routes - SE ridge of Weissmies, normal route up Strahlhorn, normal route Lagginhorn
  4. From there you should have a good base of experience and will be much better placed to make assessments on other longer/bigger routes. 

Note those are examples rather than set recommendations, and I'm sure there are many others - just based on the little bit that I've done. Unsure on current conditions/recent changes to routes etc. etc. 

So given that you are looking to make an imminent decision about how to structure your holiday, I still think you have 2-3 choices, any of which would be a great time in my view:

  1. if you and your girlfriend have a baseline of alpine knowledge and theory, take a look at some of the lower grade F routes below 4000m and build up your experience
  2. if you don't have that baseline or aren't confident,
    1. hire a guide for 2-3 days and ask them to run a bespoke alpine intro course for you. You can send a message to all the registered British Mountain Guides here and will probably get a number of responses with quotes: https://www.bmg.org.uk/activity/alpinism/ -- this could cost you perhaps £1k or so for 3 days and would give you and your girlfriend a solid baseline. Then you still have £4k or so to play with for the trip on your own huts, meals, adventures.
    2. jump on a longer scheduled introduction to alpinism course if they are available when you are looking to go - lots of examples already given in the thread. Jagged Globe, Frost, Vertical Frontiers, etc. 
  3. if you're set on Mont Blanc for this trip, and you only have a week, then it sounds like best to go guided at this juncture, although worth bearing in mind that a summit is not guaranteed even with a guided trip.
 montyjohn 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

If you're willing to spend £5000 on this, and money is still a concern (i.e., you're not so minted you can spank £5 without a care) then it's clearly something you are passionate about doing.

I don't think it matters what your reasons are, be it a bucket list item, or not. If ticking this bucket list item gives you joy it may lead to many more climbs that you continue to enjoy.

On that basis, in your position, I would go for it.

I think the exposed practice routes are a great idea. If you believe you can overcome your fears then these are a great opportunity to test yourself before attempting Mt Blanc.

You just need to accept that if things don't go to plan, let's say fear gets the better of you, weather, acclimatisation, then you likely wont make it up Mt Blanc.

If you can accept that then you will potentially and hopefully have a great time.

The other suggestions about courses, doing other peaks first are all valid, but I don't think your proposal is any less valid. Do what you think will make you happy.

If you don't think you can overcome your fear (nothing wrong with fear of exposed routes, but you need to have a mindset where you can overcome it) then you need question why you're proposing to do this.

1
OP FockeWulf 08 Mar 2023

I would think it’s an unfair assessment to say that I am trophy hunting, as some people suggest.

I’ve  spent the past 5 years developing my skills, starting from the very bottom (kinder scout) and progressing to what I feel is a quite competent level. I used to find kinderscout a huge judicial challenge that would take me 6 hours to get up and down, but now I don’t even see it as a challenge at all.

Same with Tryfan and Hellvellyn, Watkin Path. 

All of these routes I was very nervous the first time, but now id feel safe and competent. 

I have done many enjoyable hikes (Monte Emilius - Zugspitze and (almost) Breithorn)

I suppose on a numerical scale, I’d say my ability has gone from 1 to 7 over the past 5 years. I just wonder if the jump from 7 to 10 would be too big. I’m honestly 50/50 about it. 
I am prone to (psychologically) having good days and bad days when contemplating these things.

Im fully prepared to not be disappointed by not being able to summit MB, I’m very much in the school of thought to be safe and have fun. 
I’m not glory hunting. I’m literally only interested in testing my own physical and mental ability - and half of the process would be the next 6 months gaining more discipline over my mental and physical health (I have not ever in my previous life been into sport or exercise- except for hiking and finding an undiscovered ability to walk for very long periods of time, which I found fascinating). 

Perhaps it was worth mentioning that my work has sponsored me and my GF the money for the trip. My original plan was to do as others have said (attempt Breithorn again, get more experience etc) - but at the same time I’ve been offered a lot of cash and a very short amount of time to make a final decision. (This is purely down to the circumstances of being offered the money now) and as such I want to gather as many points of view in a shot period of time and compare it to my own views (which is harder to express in depth in writing than I thought)

there is the option of doing more exposed routes in the U.K. in the next 6 months on the build up to MB

Post edited at 12:05
 mcawle 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

So is the offer of money from your work ringfenced for a guided climb, or are you able to effectively use it as cash towards an alpine trip of your own devising?

If you are being given it specifically for a guided climb on MB, then it seems like a logical conclusion to go guided.

If you are being gifted it to use for an alpine trip as you wish, then the wider points about investing it differently (into training etc.) still stand, in my view.

I agree that labelling you as trophy/peak bagging could be unfair, but you also haven't really given a lot of context about the focus on Mont Blanc without much obvious discussion or interest in other worthwhile alpine peaks, apart from Breithorn.

I'm unsure about your ability scale/ranking - if the skillset required for MB in the summer is a 10, but you haven't completed any snowy alpine or glaciated peaks at 3-4k metres, then I'm not sure that your self assessment of a 7 is accurate - as it appears you haven't got much experience yet in many areas that have been pointed out above... altitude above 4k, weather, rockfall, crevasse/glacier terrain, hard icy conditions underfoot, etc. etc. 

Edit: and of course the scale of MB at a 10 is an open ended one. If MB is a 10, then another route could be a 15, 20, 50... MB via the normal route is not seen as difficult compared with other harder alpine routes, but even so the price of entry to alpine routes in terms of knowledge and experience is somewhat high, and it's much higher and more complex than managing exposure on e.g. UK summer scrambles. They are not the same thing.

Your posts keep coming back to the topic of exposure, and I agree it's a significant consideration especially if you know it can make you nervous, but the point I and I believe others are trying to make is that there are a lot of other factors apart from exposure that are relevant, and it's not clear that you have had much experience with them just yet.

Hence the multiple suggestions to either change focus and build relevant experience on smaller and lower routes, or else go guided.

Post edited at 12:27
OP FockeWulf 08 Mar 2023
In reply to mcawle:

The money has been given specifically for MB.

NB: I didn't ask for it - I have been thinking of how to do it for the past couple of years and my boss got wind of it, and it so happens that my boss is wanting to help people's wellbeing by assisting them with any goals/achievement they have had on their mind. It was quite a surprise to be called into the office to be told that he wants to fund the whole thing. 

Why Mont Blanc?

I don't know why exactly.

My dad climbed MB in the 80's, via Cosmiques Route, and then did MB Tacul - so I've always heard stories about it growing up, so I guess naturally it one of the first things comes to mind when I think of the Alps.

Most of all I think it could actually be quite fun, and perhaps I'm worrying too much about it. 
 

Post edited at 12:47
 mcawle 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Understood. So given that the money is a gift (very generous of your boss!), then from my perspective and the various discussions of prior experience etc. then I think it's a bit of a no-brainer to go guided for this trip, given the circumstances.

Worth noting that the Cosmiques Arete is not on Mont Blanc as such, but on the Aiguille du Midi.

The Chamonix Mountain Guides itinerary seems a bit aggressive from an acclimatisation perspective given that it's 5 days - up to 3,500m on the Aiguille du Tour from the Albert Premier (about 2,800m) with a 1:4 guide:client ratio and then straight up MB at a 1:2 ratio. 

I do think it would be prudent to consider alternative guiding outfits that might offer better value - some good ones have been named above.

I have no affiliation with Jagged Globe but I have just looked as an example and see that they do 6 days guided at a 1:2 ratio all the way (which means you'll get more attention and probably learn more), and they appear to base those courses around the Torino (3,300m) which could mean a couple of other great alpine routes and probably better acclimatisation (Marbrees and Entreves) - which could be some good experience with exposure and alpine scrambling with the safety of a guide.

Vertical Frontiers also seem to offer 5-6 day programmes, where the 6 day programmes include Gran Paradiso. Both seem to be going for around £2,300-2,400 per person.

Post edited at 13:33
1
OP FockeWulf 08 Mar 2023
In reply to mcawle:

Just spoke to Jagged - they advised they are not guiding July, June and August due to the conditions on MB last summer, and are dining that most guides they speak to aren’t going up either….

 mcawle 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

The plot thickens. Interesting...

1
 Tom Briggs 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

To be clear Jagged Globe no longer offer Mont Blanc in July/August due to conditions (we do go in June and September into early October). The huts are now fully booked in June.

 Philb1950 08 Mar 2023
In reply to mcawle:

I’m fairly sure he means trois monts route setting off from Cosmiques hut, over Tacul and Maudit & MB, descending to Gouter. 

 mcawle 08 Mar 2023
In reply to Philb1950:

Ah right, good interpretation. Thanks.

OP FockeWulf 08 Mar 2023
In reply to mcawle:

I've just looked at Vertical frontiers. 

Their 5 (6) day program doesn't mention Gran Paradiso for the training route- it says we go to the Torino refuge then "journey towards the col du Entreves on day 2 continues our training and acclimatisation. We get some rocky scrambling practice done as well as some good ascent at altitude. After collecting any equipment at the Torino refuge we descend the lift and transfer back to France. Night in Chamonix.".

I've tried to research this, and does this mean that the training peak would be the Aiguille d' Entreves (or is the col du Entreves something else?)

The videos of Aiguille d' Entreves look overkill in terms of exposure/training. 

See:  youtube.com/watch?v=8ykLZEqoDyE&

Or have I go this wrong? 

 mcawle 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

I don't know, I don't speak for them but there are a couple of different offerings on their site - 

Mont Blanc in 5 days: https://verticalfrontiers.com/product/mont-blanc-summit-trip/ (€2k per person it looks like), which seems like a decent price

Mont Blanc + Gran Paradiso: https://verticalfrontiers.com/product/mont-blanc-grand-paradiso-summit-trip...

However doesn't look like there are dates until Sept and perhaps the majority of companies are not looking to do MB in high summer at the moment as discussed above.

Entreves traverse - yes exposure is a factor on that route but it's more interesting and scenic than Aiguille du Tour IMO, and the Torino hut is higher so you're likely to acclimatise better.

That said, you probably can't go too wrong with any of the major guiding companies.

 jcw 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

I think you can forget it. I am told the hut is booked out for guides and all for this year and even much of the following. Les Trois  Monts is possible of course, but glancing briefly through this thread that demands a great deal more physical fitness and mountaineering experience than you have, even with a guide. As others have suggested go and do something else, with that budget you should be able to have. some really interesting mountaineering with a guide and gain the experience which you require. 

I suggest you check, all the same, my info because it is possible that a guide has made bookings without having tied up a client

Post edited at 16:37
1
 Tom Briggs 08 Mar 2023
In reply to jcw:

> I suggest you check, all the same, my info because it is possible that a guide has made bookings without having tied up a client

Thesedays you can only book a bed at the Tete Rousse and Gouter with a name, date of birth, nationality and copy of ID. And you pay a deposit...

 Philb1950 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

In all honesty, having read your post and the numerous replies I would suggest that MB is probably beyond you with your current experience. Crib Goch is only a an easy grade 1 scramble, which you can crawl along if necessary, whereas the bosses ridge, whilst easy ( don’t know about the new crevasse) is also very exposed. In fact the whole ascent from that side is relatively easy, if you have the relevant experience and fitness. And remember even if you fail the guide will still require payment. I would suggest an alpine introductory course, so you can begin to experience what’s required. It will always be there next year or whenever.

1
 Oscar Dodd 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Sounds like you wouldn't have the best time doing it! I mirror what others are saying, spend some more time scrambling in the UK, do some easier alpine routes with a guide etc to build up the confidence. I used to suffer from a fear of heights too and it's crazy frustrating, but it can be overcome! Gradually build up your confidence- start with nice easy grade 1 scrambles that you seem to already be doing and progress from there - maybe join a club and do a bit of climbing - which can be great for getting in really exposed positions with the safety net of a rope! I'd bet that if you spend as much time in the next year doing this sort of thing, by next year, you'll have a much more enjoyable time on Mont Blanc!

 jcw 08 Mar 2023
In reply to Tom Briggs

Thanks. I though that was the case, but not in Cham to check at the moment.

Post edited at 17:50
 CantClimbTom 08 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

You're worrying about the wrong things. The scramble from Tete Rouse to Aig. Gouter hut is no problem, very straightforward, you'll be with others it'll be fine. But the most dangerous thing is the Grand Couloir which you never mentioned. The Bosses are unpredictable, being snow/ice they can change in shape year to year and the route has changed due to some annoying big crack, so there's no way I can tell you in advance what it's like on the day. I haven't walked up the Gouter route for a while, in fact it'll be 30 years this summer (my first trip to Alps), so I'm a bit out of date! Definitely you don't want to trip on your crampons on a steep icy ridge (with traffic congestion).

Echoing others advice that it sounds like a lot of cash to me. Get some guiding general instructions and all round training for yourself and girlfriend cheaper than £5k!!!  then come back to walk the Gouter if you still want. As much as others grumble it's a good route as a side effect it should teach you to stop doing such high profile tourist routes and how to make better choices in future

Whatever you do, stay safe and enjoy!

3
 BALD EAGLE 09 Mar 2023
In reply to pec:

> Just out of curiosity (I've already climbed MB via another route and have no wish to climb the Gouter Ridge), is that photo indicative of the exposure on the route or is it more exposed elsewhere because it doesn't look particularly exposed.

> Had a quick skim through the video and again didn't see anything that looked unusual in terms of exposure.

Hi Pec

The photo and vid were taken and filmed in the summer of 2016 so no doubt conditions and the route will change every year, especially with the recent very hot summers. My memory is a little hazy but there were certainly a couple of sections on the ridge, between the Grand and Petit Bosses and a bit further again, that were very exposed requiring precise and sure footed crampon placement!

Anyway attached are a couple more photos with the first taken around 6am just after the Vallot Hut approaching the ridge and the second between the Grand and Petit Bosses. I think especially the second photo shows how the ridge narrows, the exposure increases and the consequences of a slip would probably not end well... 

Cheers

Dave


 BALD EAGLE 09 Mar 2023
In reply to Bob Aitken:

> A classy video, but perhaps not very helpful to FockeWulf and his anxieties, in that it doesn't show the ascent to the Gouter Hut with the hazards of the Grand Couloir or the scrambling on loose ground above it, nor the recent dramatic changes and crevasse development on the rise to the Bosses arete.

Hi Bob

You are quite right that the ascent to the Gouter Hut via the infamous Grand Couloir is not really shown in my wee vid, as with an excellent forecast my partner and I got a booking 2 days prior into the excellent Tete Rousse Hut and left in the dark (hence not really shown) at around 2am.

My buddy and I were going ok (having acclimatised on a few lower peaks followed by Gran Paradiso) and it took us about 2 1/2 hours to cross the Grand Couloir (all quiet and frozen into submission!) and the loose scramble with some fixed cables up to the Gouter Hut. We were on the summit by about 8.30am and then back down at the Tete Rousse for just after 12 noon, before a leisurely stroll back down to the Eagles Nest to catch a train then cable car back down for beer and pizza.

Incidentally everyone we spoke to said the Tete Rousse is a far nicer hut than the Gouter (if you can get a booking!) to stay in, as the Gouter often has a lot of unacclimatised folks with thumping headaches and throwing up...

Cheers

Dave

 profitofdoom 09 Mar 2023
In reply to BALD EAGLE:

> .....folks with thumping headaches and throwing up...

Sounds like my flat in the 1980s

 Howard J 09 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

I would say go for it. You have the opportunity of a funded trip with a guide.  The preparation peaks are not only to acclimatise but to assure both the guide and you that you are capable of the main ascent, and either have are or able to learn the necessary alpine skills.  

Having said that, I think you need to be prepared to find that you are not ready. Alpinism often requires you to move over steep and exposed ground, often moving together with far less security than you would expect on similar terrain in the UK. Crib Goch, which you say you don't like the idea of, is at the bottom of end of the scale of difficulty and exposure you can expect to encounter.  Exposure is just a fact of life on many alpine routes. You just have to deal with it, and if you can't then perhaps alpinism isn't for you. You will be roped up, and guides are used to bringing clients across that sort of terrain, but you will have to get used to it. On the other hand, climbing with a guide can be a great way to build confidence and learn skills.

The only way to find out if you can cope is to try it.  At the very least you will come back with some new skills and a better appreciation of your abilities, and you may discover that you are capable of more than you think.

I think it's also important that your work, who will be paying for this, understand that even with a guide success can not be guaranteed and that there will be no comeback if for any reason you pull out or fail to reach the summit.

 ExiledScot 09 Mar 2023
In reply to Howard J:

> The only way to find out if you can cope is to try it.  At the very least you will come back with some new skills

Not necessarily. Alpine mountaineering isn't like say downhill mtb, canoeing, skiing etc.. if you decide you don't like it, or it's too much you can't just pause, step away, hop off... if reaching the summit is nerve wracking then descending against people who might not step off the path isn't going to be pleasant to say the least. 

 Howard J 10 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

>  if you decide you don't like it, or it's too much you can't just pause, step away, hop off... 

True, but he'll be with a guide and he'll probably discover on the training routes whether he can cope with it, before attempting the big one. 

We all have to start somewhere, and most of us that was without a guide. If he were doing it unguided that would be a different matter, but the opportunity of a paid-for guided trip seems too good to turn down, with the proviso that there may be a high risk of failure and/or not enjoying it much.

 Enty 10 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

5k towards a fully guided ascent of MB in the footsteps of your father 40 years ago.

You'd be bonkers not to go.

Have a great trip.

E

 ExiledScot 10 Mar 2023
In reply to Howard J:

> We all have to start somewhere

Indeed, everyone will recall their first Scottish winter days, first graded winter route, first time on a glacier, first alps route, first 4000er, first extreme exposure, first early start after a rubbish sleep in a hut etc.. but ideally you don't want too many of those firsts on the same outing! Baby steps, not giant leaps usually stack the odds in your favour in all respects.

Just because a parent enjoyed it and work will pay for it, doesn't mean the op will enjoy it. 

Post edited at 13:34
1
 Howard J 10 Mar 2023
In reply to ExiledScot:

>  Baby steps, not giant leaps usually stack the odds in your favour in all respects.

Again, agreed. But going with a guide can help to short-cut those baby steps, and, to repeat myself, the chance of a paid-for guided trip seems too good to turn down. Quite a lot of people with little or no mountaineering experience pay a guide to drag them up MB or the Matterhorn - whether they enjoy the experience is another matter, but that's a chance you take.

I do have some doubts about the OP's chances of success, given that he doesn't like the look of Crib Goch, but even if he has a thoroughly miserable time it will only have cost him a few days' leave from work. I accept there may be a risk that he'll find the experience so horrible that it puts him off alpinism completely, however I think he has a better chance of overcoming his anxieties with a guide than by taking 'baby steps' on his own.

I am assuming that in generously offering to fund this trip his employer has in mind that he will attempt, and hopefully achieve, something notable which they can use in some way to promote the company.  It's a lot of money to put toward's someone's personal development.  Would they be willing to fund a less ambitious trip which would have less recognition?  I'm saying grab what's on offer and make the best of it.

 Marek 10 Mar 2023
In reply to Howard J:

> ... but even if he has a thoroughly miserable time it will only have cost him a few days' leave from work...

This reminds me of an old Monty Python (to paraphrase):

"I've just had a thoroughly miserable week, scared sh*tless, cold, nearly died and had a splitting headache all the time!"

"Didn't people warn you?"

"Yes, but it was a bargain - it was free!"

OP FockeWulf 14 Mar 2023

Thanks for all your comments.

I have read each one of them very carefully, everyone has made some really good contributions.

Having given myself an extra few days to think about it, I’ve decided to book 6 day course which starts with Grand Paradiso.

There’s some points that I’ve considered in making the decision:

1) I’m fully prepared not to summit Mont Blanc for any reason. By this, I mean my main objective is to learn more skills and most importantly HAVE FUN! If Gran Paradiso is my limit, then no hard feelings. There’s also many other the benefits of doing the trip - getting fit, being more disciplined, discovering my limits etc.

2) I do actually think it’s possible. I’m pretty good at walking, and have managed 10+ hour days hiking in the Alps without feeling like I’m completely done. And that’s without doing any prior fitness training, so I guess my base line fitness is quite good, and it will be even better after proper training over the next 5 months.

3) I know 3900 meters isn’t the same as 4800m, but at least it’s something- and I didn’t have any unusually bad side effects at that altitude apart from a slight reduction in stamina.

4) I will probably feel safer with a guide and my tolerance and confidence will be increased.

5) Strangely, but sill very relevant, is that I tend to over plan and think which causes me to worry excessively about things (especially the day after having too many beers). 

Be assured that I’ve given this a lot of thought, and I wouldn’t be doing it if I genuinely thought that it would be a waste of time. 

Thank you for the help! 

 mcawle 14 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

I think it’s a good decision - hope you have an excellent time and learn loads 👍

 Mark Haward 15 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

You have obviously thought this through carefully. Hope you have a fantastic time, perhaps let us know how you got on when you return. 

    Who knows, may see you out there....

 John Cuthbert 15 Mar 2023
In reply to FockeWulf:

Good choice.

In my view not only is the Gran Paradiso safer and less hustle and bustle than MB (the huts and routes are sometimes more like a circus than a mountaineering day out), it's also a better route. 

Mcawle's suggestions outline a number of more engaging routes, indeed I fail to understand the obsession with MB. The Alps are replete with quite the most amazing places often far from the 'madding crowds'. GP will be busy peak season, but it's a good start if anyone who genuinely wants to experience something moving and memorable.

John C

1
OP FockeWulf 15 Mar 2023
In reply to John Cuthbert:

I’m not sure if my post was clear - GP will be our acclimatisation mountain, MB will be the second.

PS - there’s not necessarily an “obsession” with MB here..


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