UKC

Please tell me, how is it that people without the UIAGM offer to take people up Mont Blanc at a 1000 Euros a day, and get away with it?

Can someone tell what I am missing here?

How many people do you know doing this and does it matter?

Even the qualified ones just went along with whatever scam organisation in charge refused to pass Stevie Haston.  To hell with the lot of them.

Death to guided mountaineering I say!

Surprised to hear that these days, what are your sources please?

Many years ago I was with a (British) guide in France, and Stevie Haston came up in conversation.

It appears that whilst his personal climbing was brilliant, his capability to look after his customers was what let him down - quite drastically I was informed.

There are other sides to that story, unfair to present just one.

What's this thread got todo with Stevie Haston, or is he currently moonlighting as a guide?

That's an interesting question.

I suppose (?) it's legal for anybody to make a contract with anybody else to act as a guide, just like anybody can act as, say, a 'financial advisor'. Presumably the practical problem is getting insured for such an activity?

Not the case in France. It is illegal to work as a guide unless you are a qualified guide, or have been given equivalence.

Thanks; didn't know that. Does that apply just in the 'high mountains' (for some definition of the term); or for general hill-walking/touring as well? Just curious.

How is it that qualified guides take totally unqualified clients up and get away with it?  These unqualified clients are a danger to themselves, their guides, and other climbers.   I think unqualified guides taking unqualified clients up is the perfect combination.  They deserve each other. 

All people should be totally free to choose who they climb with, whether money is involved or not , whether the person is called a qualified guide or not.

Tell the French government, it’s their rules.

My understanding is thats the case wherever it is, from Font to Cham.

Theres other qualifications they might accept so for the Tour de Mont Blanc for example an IML.

If I went there and used my MIA qualification I’d be in trouble.

For that kind of money you could "guide" in the style of a certain piss drinking tv personality. 

Use a cut of the money to hire a real guide to bring you up on a top rope and stay out of sight.

If you think the French rules are unreasonable (I don't) -- you should see the USA rules for some National Forests (notably California Eastside Sierra) and above all Yosemite National Park.

Based on some of the practice I've seen from qualified guides* over the years I wouldn't rely on some of them to get me to the cable car station let alone get me safely up a mountain.

*I'm assuming those badges on their jackets aren't fakes.

There is a rock climbing instructor badge but it has a blanket altitude limit so that it cannot be used above a  I think its 1500m ish. 

There is a gentlemen on here living around briancon that runs various outdoor courses I believe including climbing and via ferrata that seems to have either gained equivalence (I.e. gained a carte professionel) for MIA or gotten the French qual cos I don't think he is a guide

The French system in some ways is similar to the British with qualifications for mountain walking (non glaciated terrain), climbing (non glaciated, maybe a height limit)  & as mountain guide (can go anywhere). Following the long negotiations for the British guides to be recognised by the UIAGM they have automatic 'equivalence' & so can work in France with just their British qualification. In theory IML & MIC/MIA are recognised but its not automatic and from the few people I know who have gained 'equivalence' it seems to be done on a case by case basis and is usually (always ?) time consuming. You'd almost think it was deliberate to protect French jobs

As a recent graduate with a summer to fill I landed a job with Ramblers Holidays in 1980. My only qualification was that I spoke some French and was a keen walker and climber. I had zero Alpine walking  experience and little understanding of how to run the holidays but I muddled through and managed not to kill anybody; the Alps are a dangerous place even in benign conditions. During the summer I saw some young locals undergoing the tests to become Accompagnateurs de Moyenne Montagne, which was roughly what I was doing. What I saw looked silly but I bet they knew more about the risks of Alpine walking than I did, they having been brought up in the area. I'm sure that if I did the same job now I would do it differently with a lot more wisdom and empathy for the poor clients!

Depends if the guide is misleading about his/her qualification/insurance. I would not pay 1000 euros a day for something you can learn from a few books and a couple days at a crag, but to some that is a price worth paying for someone with some experience (i'm not sure who would pay 1000 a day as you can pay 2200 for a 6 day full monty with a "reputable" company). I think every trade has cowboys who are able to undercut professionals, i don't think it necessarily means the pros are losing out as they never wanted to pay full price anyway.

Or maybe they think that being qualified and competent to guide people up mountains up to 4000' with no glaciers, isn't quite the same as being qualified and competent to guide people up glaciated mountains up to 15,000'?

I'm not out to pick arguments on discussion forums; but that is naïve.

hypothetically: what do you do for a living; and would you be happy for some unqualified muppet to offer the same services you provide at a cost you can't match? I think you'll find it an uphill struggle to convince your potential clients that they are not comparing like with like, the others are of inferior quality, and you provide value for money.

There is an altitude limit. "Accompagnateurs de montagne" (not real guides but still have some state diploma) cannot go over 1500 m with customers. Otherwise they do what guides do (climbing, canyoning, skiing, drinking beer).

Over 1500 m, guides. They have quite drastic requirements and formation (I mean, given that they do canyoning with children 80% of the time, see http://www.ensa.sports.gouv.fr/index.php/formation/alpinisme/top-variation-...). There's intense lobbying from the historical guide companies to not let anyone operate above 1500 m. 

This is a well known problem in economics.  Given information asymmetry between buyers and sellers the market gets taken over by crap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons

I don't think 1500m limit can be right - parts of Chamonix are almost that high!

Accompagnateurs de moyenne montagne can't take clients rock climbing

« Le diplôme d'accompagnateur en moyenne montagne atteste des compétences de son titulaire pour conduire et encadrer, contre rémunération, des personnes ou des groupes en espace rural montagnard, à l'exclusion des zones glaciaires, de rochers, des canyons et terrains nécessitant pour la progression l'utilisation du matériel ou des techniques de l'alpinisme.»

http://www.ensm.sports.gouv.fr/55-reglementation-des-metiers-sportifs-de-la...

Nothing about beer (or wine) drinking

Yeah I was trying to write simplistically on my phone!

There are a couple of MIA's that I know of who have managed to get MIA added to their Carte Pro, but it seems like a lot of work.

You need a guide qualification to take clients on pub crawls in Chamonix?  Seems fair.

My bad. Well I have seen some shifty business then.

I was responding to Paz, who posted at 00.32 on Monday !

If you were to read that, my post (I suggest) makes sense.

Competition exists across a large budget and quality spectrum. If everyone thinks like you say they do then companies like John Deere, Rolls Royce, Snap on and Petzl probably wouldn't exist as you can buy inferior comparable products for a fraction of the cost. Whether people are happy or not to have competition who really cares? 

like you say - it's got to be comparable

Nope.  The 'Accompanateur' (what we would call an International Mountain Leader has no height boundary).  Some of them work in the Himalayas!  It wouldn't be at all unusual for an Accompanateur / IML to take a group up to one of the high huts at 3000+m.

For climbing the norm would be the Moniteur D'Escalade although there are some local qualifications in effect in both climbing and walking.

Ah ok, apparently I have completely mixed up the diplomas, certificates and whatnots. It's the moniteur d'escalade (FFME diploma, supposedly there is a CAF equivalent) who is limited to 1500 m. Nothing to do with state certificates.

Indeed the AMM (accompagnateur) is the walker guy who knows his birds and his mushrooms.

Suggest you take a look at the British Guides scheme to see what they have to actually do to qualify (unless your comment was tongue in cheek of course )

and his beer (& probably saucisson, fromage et jambon)

I stopped leading trips for CAF when they started to insist that I qualified for one of their internal qualifications as it would have taken so much time which I'd rather spend doing something else. I don't think I was alone & one of the sections here in Paris has effectively stopped running organised trips as most of the older volunteers felt like me.

My tongue was firmly in my cheek, hence the smiley face at the end

It is the same in a few other countries even though most have very similar mountain instructor qualifications and syllabuses, after some UIAA standardisation. But then each national association gets a bit protectionist, introducing it's own 'extra' requirements. Such as holding an in country first aid qualification, references from local instructors and x number of days shadowing local instructors and courses. It is enough to make it prohibitive to instructors who haven't made that country their new home. 

Hi mchardski

I am that person (unless there is another one) My name is Rob and I hold the UK MIA and IML, and I have gained recognition for these awards + white water kayak coaching, so I hold a carte professional to deliver there activities  and so comply with the french law. I also live here full time and I am completely in the french system for tax etc. In theory you can apply to have any qualification recognised under the EU directive's freedom of movement and freedom to establish, I know of a few other MIA's who have done this and even a SPA.

On the Guide front I have never claimed to be a guide, sometimes someone has recommended me on this site under a post heading "looking for a guide" this tends to be in regard to rock climbing and where the person asking may not know there are other options to a guide (including other French awards) or the person didn't really understand the qualification, in both cases I have always tried to correct any assumptions or miss information.

going forward I am hoping to offer a whole range of activities including ski touring and alpine climbing, this will be working with the local guides office, with some really good local guides that I already do bits of work with. but that will be explained clearly on my website when that happens.

if any one has any questions feel free to drop me a line.

Hi drolex

your statement 

"There is an altitude limit. "Accompagnateurs de montagne" (not real guides but still have some state diploma) cannot go over 1500 m with customers. Otherwise they do what guides do (climbing, canyoning, skiing, drinking beer)."

is wrong the AMM is a walking qualification that includes snow shoeing in winter and has a direct equivalence to the UK IML, it has no height limit for walking just  terrain limitations, and does not include skiing, it does have a bolt on for VTT and easy canyoning. and all french awards cover wine drinking.

edit sorry didn't see Andy's response before replying 

I think that's the whole IT industry... 

At about the same time I was offered a job at ISM (I had contacts) - they'd have suffered; I lived in Africa and had hardly ever seen snow

Hi Rob, yeah that's you, I saw your nice via ferrata app posts recently and read your website. I had meant as discussion point, in reply to jezb1, that I suspected that it was at least in theory possible to gain french carte pro for rock climbing (not alpine guideing) with an MIA, (cos I think I had read previously something to that effect on your website about you having had your UK quals accepted here). Apologies if i implied anything else.   I live in France also and am going through IML right now. Also hope to do MIA for my own development but that's a longer term objective, and not in particular right now with a view to use in France, but it's interesting to know that it is possible.  

No props I am happy for my case to be used for discussion, I only wanted to make sure no one thinks I am trying to claim something I am not, I didn't think you post implied anything wrong, I just want to be clear since it was on a post titled "unqualified guides operating in the alps" that I am qualified and legal just not in the way most expect. 

Thank you for the nice commet about my free via ferrata guide to Écrins and Briançon app (may as well get a plug in there) hope you have had a chance to use it, happy for feed back.

good luck with the IML and one day MIA.

cheers Rob

Jim Perrin didn't seem to think so.  It sounded much more like a stitch up to me.

Death to guided mountaineering!

Speak to the assessors about that. I have, because I was a little incredulous, even it was a long time ago. Nothing against Stevie per se but being a guide is so much more than being a superstar climber. In the past climbing with guides who are friends I usually led crux pitches, but that’s not what it’s about. Burgess twins struggled with qualification. In the mid to late 80,s we ended up with huge disparities between old and newer guides, which has now evened out as BMG joined UIAA.

Quite right. Isn,t MIA an association with a curriculum as opposed to a guide that is an international carnet taking years of assessment  and no small measure of ability to obtain (especially so these days)

Not really no, it's a qualification run by Mountain Training.

Our association is the AMI.

There's more info here if you're interested: www.ami.org.uk

Which company is this anyway? Are they employing? I'm at a loose at the moment and they seem like money should be good.

Do I really have to name names? They are not British, and have a lot of experience, but they are not UIAGM, and they have a website, and must be taking people out in the Alps up all sorts.

No not at all, although judging by your handle you might be able to get away with it. Your original post simply struck me is a bit out of the blue and lacking justification is all. I'd have thought the authorities would be interested to know though.

On Denali basically anyone can be hired as a guide, to my understanding, which basically means that it not uncommon to see young guides who can barely look after themselves, totally out of their depths, with a group of equally useless clients. Seems massively dangerous to me. I would definitely advocate similar rules to France.

I don't need a guide. I'm an expert, who choses who he climbs with carefully!

We don't need no stinking guides!

Not sure what this has to do with illegal guiding but hey it's a free World  

It would be a more interesting thread if you did. I have no idea what company you are talking about & suspect others haven't either.