UKC

This is probably a stupid question. Mont Blanc is the highest summit in (Western) Europe and the Gouter Route is probably the easiest and possibly the safest way up it (although the total altitude gain is considerably more than on the Three Monts). So presumably a lot of people want to do it for those reasons - hence the recent overcrowding at the Gouter hut which has led to the route being restricted to those with reservations or starting from the Tete Rousse.

What I’d be interested to hear is whether there are other reasons people want to do this route. Would be good to hear from those who’ve done it and those who’d like to do it.

It’s true that the route is both gracious and ‘in your face’ when seen in profile from Cham, so perhaps that’s part of the reason.

Personally, I’ve never particularly wanted to do it except for acclimatisation or if someone pays me (hopefully some day people will!) because it feels like a lot of effort for little technical or aesthetic interest. The only time I’ve done it was in descent after doing one of the more interesting routes on the Italian side, which was a good way of doing it!

 

 

In reply to Misha:

I think the poor view of the gouter route is only based on the fact it’s busy and full of novice climbers (for all your reasons stated). Nothing really wrong with that in my eyes as long as people are respectful, I was one of the novices Climbing this route on my first trip as most on the route probably are. 

A reason to go back to that route for me is the ‘relatively’ low crevasse risk and long slog, which makes it perfect for a solo ascent from the valley. But maybe I just like to suffer.

In reply to Misha:

Actually climbed the upper part of the Gouter route for the first time the other day, joining the route at the Dome de Gouter after climbing the Popes route from the Italian side.

The upper part of the route from the Vallot hut is rather splendid to be honest, its my first experience of ascent after in the past only experiencing the Gouter in descent from the summit.

The ridge line is rather pleasant with enough interest & aesthetic value to make it worthwhile, although the slog to reach this point must be wholesale suffering I do admit.

Sure when you are being paid to ascend this route with future clients, you'll have enough time to appreciate the finer qualities of this ridge line-))

In reply to Misha:

I climbed it on first visit to the Alps, solo. I chose it purely due to it being the easiest route up, with the smallest objective danger. That said, looking at it from the valley now does lend itself to bringing back some fond memories of what is one of my top experiences. I did it early season and was 6th on top on summit day so managed to avoid much of the merry go round. Despite being a complete novice myself.

In reply to Misha:

I'd say you've got 99.9% of people with the above. Certainly my reasons for doing it back in 2013. Furthermore, if you're new to the alps its a) technically easy, b) logistically easy, c) a motorway with low-ish objective danger and d) gets you on top of something you've known the name of since you were <10 years old. In terms of route its not the most exciting, but remember large volumes of the population as a whole will slog up the Llanberis path to "summit" "mount" Snowdon. 

 

In reply to Misha:

Never done it as I dislike crowds on routes and heaving huts. But I have descended it several times. It just seems like an uninteresting slog as a far as the dome, but if you aren't a self sufficient mountaineer it is their best chance of success.

Give me a 10pm start and a full moon from Cosmiques any day. No hut, no crowds, summit sunrise and good snow romping off. 

In reply to Misha:

Many people climbing MB are not Alpinists. Even given the simplicity and safety of the route, most of those at the Gouter are guided.

The trois monts route was considerably harder this year with fixed rope at the Col du Mont Maudit and the inevitable danger of the seracs.

In reply to tingle:

Fair points, in good conditions it’s a feasible solo alternative for those with a bit of experience, although it’s safer and more fun to do it with a partner. 

Have to say it’s not an easy 4,000er on the legs given the total vertical gain and that chossy slog to the hut is pretty steep. 

In reply to walts4:

Yes, the upper ridge is nice enough, though if anything the Domes de Miage are more aesthetic (also a lot of vertical to get there but 1,000m lower and no choss). 

How was the Pope’s Route? Pretty wild I imagine?

In reply to Misha:

I did it in 2005. My logic was that I wanted to do Mont Blanc but being 17 out parents wouldn't let us go unguided. A team of British soldiers had been killed by Serac fall on the Three Monts route the week we planned to do it. So we had to switch to the Gouter. At the time I was not good enough to climb any other route. 

Agreed it's tedious, crowded and boring. But our guide had just got back from new routing on the SW face of everest and being 17 we were quite fit. So we were up and down in a day. Made it more exciting! 

The Cosmiques Arete was the highlight of that particular trip for me in the end.

In reply to ianstevens:

(C) only in good conditions of course. 

I guess bragging rights are a factor for some. “I’ve summited Mont Blanc” sounds a lot more impressive to a non-climber than “I’ve done the Walker Spur”.

In reply to Misha:

We did it at the end of a tough couple of weeks a few years ago. We bivvied by the Gouter but it was so cold we set off at 12:00, which was a blessing in disguise as we were pretty much first on the route and first on top. I have very fond memories of that day, the lack of technical difficulties meant we could solo it and enjoy the experience of the night climbing, the dawn and the summit.

In reply to Misha:

People have always decried the Goûter route for the various obvious reasons. A better way of looking at it though, is to try to imagine it without the Bellevue téléphérique, without the train, without the Tête Rousse, Goûter and Vallot refuges, without the cables on the rocky ridge… In those conditions it would rank up there with all the other fabulous big alpine 4000er classic voies normales. Sadly this is now impossible. 

The other Chamonix classic that springs to mind is the Vallée Blanche. However, in contrast to the Goûter, to some extent you can experience this how it used to be. Ski it in less than favourable conditions, suddenly engulfed by impenetrable mist and heavy snowfall wiping out any tracks, and then it's no longer that benign easy couple of hours' fun. It's no longer the good old VB… it's just as menacing and frightening as any other big alpine glacier.

There's nothing wrong with the Goûter route or the Vallée Blanche. It's what we've done to them that's the problem. 

In reply to Misha:

 

Yes, its fairly wild, but obviously aided by the exceptional winters snow its a good year to experience the chaos, although a good head torch highlights the terrain quite alarmingly.

Even getting to the refuge is a typical South side adventure, the scramble off the glacier being super exposed & fairly poorly equipped where it really matters. 

The upper ridge is wonderful, arriving at the brief continuation of the Bionnassay narrow exposed ridge before joining the Dome. Quite rightly,  my son decided that it wouldn't be the route of descent for him although several people had descended the route back to the Gonella refuge, we headed down the Gouter braving the gully mid morning.

Overall, highly recommended.

 

In reply to Misha:

Important caveat of course! Which is of course when most people do it. I suspect they are important for most - consciously or not.

In reply to Misha: Misha, If I were a client looking to climb Mont Blanc for the first time with only limited alpine experience, I would not be too happy seeing a post from my guide (you) saying the route you were taking me up was basically crap. Edit. Unless you were a French guide, as they basically sneer at any route below td. 

Ive been up the Gouter with an inexperienced climber and they had the most exhilarating time even though it was technically simple following cables and red paint spots, to them it was alpine mountaineering they could do. (Pointing out the memorial plaque dispelled any misconceptions that the route was a simple plod)

The route itself can teach people a lot, the couloir crossing, the need for care when others are around, the benefits of speed and efficiency, the ridges that can be viewed on the way up and simply the views of the alps, to some people are worth the trip and money spent. It’s a bit like taking hill walkers up Jacks Rake for the first time, it’s easy to an experienced bod, but a massive buzz to those with limited experience. I still enjoy taking people out onto routes that thrill them if not me because that’s what the jobs about. I would hope that the enjoyment I get from being out on rock, even if it is a ‘tourist route’ rubs off onto my company. 

Once you qualify as a guide, I suspect you will be doing the Gouter run on a fairly regular basis if you base your work in that part of the Alps, so you might need to start liking it a little more.  

 

In reply to didntcomelast:

I did it with my brother a few years back.  He had no mountaineering experience other than UK hill walking and no climbing background.  I had a fair bit of climbing experience and plenty of longer rock routes in the Alps and Dolomites but bugger all on snow.

To him it was one of the most memorable experiences of his life, and I really enjoyed the challenge of taking someone close and totally inexperienced whilst still finding my own way a bit.

In terms of route choice, I don't think anything other than train up, bivvy at the Gouter and train down were ever an option with uncertain fitness and skills level.

In reply to Misha:

Not all easy on the body, i was put to bed early that night after only a few rums. 

On a side note/hijack: does anybody know if the tete rousse has a flowing water tap outside like most lower huts do?

 

In reply to jon:

Interesting thought. I’d allow the Tete Rousse though for an alpine voie normale experience. Would still be chossy on the rock and a slogathon but I guess that’s not unusual in the Alps

The VB is always good fun, it’s skiing after all! As you say, in difficult conditions it’s challenging for sure. In powder and under a blue sky it’s pure fun. When tracked out it’s still enjoyable. 

In reply to walts4:

Sounds good.

Curiously, my only experience of the Grand Couloir was mid afternoon in August and there wasn’t a single rock coming down it. 

In reply to didntcomelast:

I’m not saying it’s a rubbish route. For a rubbish route, I’d say something like the normal route on the Noire de Peuterey (again, I’ve only done it in descent, which is probably worse than in ascent - horribly loose). Equally, there are certainly better and more interesting routes in the Alps. I’m just interested to understand people’s motivations for doing it.

I guess another reason is it’s well known. There are many great routes of a similar grade elsewhere in the Alps but they aren’t as well known.

In reply to Misha:

People climb Gouter Route for the same reason they climb any other route - namely, no good reason whatsoever.

In reply to Misha:

You have listed the reasons. The more pertinent issue is when to do the Gouter route. Catch a nice weekend end of September or early October and you can have the summit for yourself (almost....)

CB

In reply to Misha:

I done the Gouter back in 2014 as part of a guided trip to the Alps (my first alpine experience when I was 17) - Got me hooked for life! 

I think for a lot of people, climbing Mont Blanc is a "once in a lifetime" experience and lacking the experience and technical ability, many folk opt for the route that maximizes the chances of success, whether or not it's guided. 

Having done 80% of the Trios Monts route in 2016 before turning around, I'll admit that the Gouter isn't as nice a route as others on the mountain, but we can't all be die hard alpine climbers and everyone has there own motivations for climbing Mont Blanc. 

Ask yourself, if you didn't have much experience but you wanted to climb Mont Blanc and perhaps you only had one shot at it due to family, time, money, other commitments or factors. Would you pick the route that gave you the highest chances of success or pick a harder / more interesting route with more uncertainty and risk blowing your chance at reaching the summit?  

 

 

In reply to Misha:

I did it because I thought it was the safest route to solo.

Al

In reply to didntcomelast:

I agree with you and you were doing really well till you said:

Which is bollocks, I'm afraid. It's exactly the type of route a lot of them want to do, day in, day out. It's on their doorstep. It's guaranteed. It's not too taxing. They have their mortgage to pay, their kids to feed, like anyone else and need a regular income. It's a job, they're not doing it for their own pleasure. If they were, then they're in the wrong job. It's to provide pleasure for the paying client. 

The rest of your post is pretty spot on.

In reply to Kirill:

Not sure I agree, people usually have reasons for climbing a particular route, especially one that effectively takes two days.

In reply to Misha:

Its a means to an end isn't it, the safest way to summit Mont Blanc for the masses, highest in the Alps etc, why don't you get this.

If you are planning on being an Alpine guide, you better  rethink what your bread and butter is going to be, the Voi normales with  adventure tourists on the world circuit.

The proper climbers stay well clear of guides.

In reply to Andy Clarke1965:

Those are probably the main reasons for a lot of people, I mentioned these considerations in the OP. I was interested in other suggestions and a few have been made above. 

What, where and when to guide is another question and depends on many factors. You are not incorrect in what you say but there is more to it. However that’s a different discussion.

I realise now that my thread title reads a bit negatively. A better way of putting it is ‘Reasons for doing the Gouter Route’.

I would also disagree with your last sentence. I don’t know how you define ‘proper’ climbers (are there ‘improper’ ones?) but let’s just say climbers who are sufficiently experienced to be self sufficient. It takes a certain amount of experience to get to that stage and going on guided courses is one way to get that experience. That’s what I did anyway. That’s a different discussion as well though. 

In reply to jon:Point taken Jon, though the comment was made tongue in cheek. I have been on a few easier routes where guides have been working with clients and it has been clear that they were less than impressed with their clients abilities and made it clear in both words and deeds. 

As regards your comment ‘it’s a job, they’re not doing it for their own pleasure. ‘ I would have thought that despite it being a trade route, the reason they do the job is for their own AND their clients pleasure. 

 

In reply to Misha:

What I don't understand is why people hike many of these mountains when you can ski them. You don't need to be a great skier, and it's way softer on the body, more fun and makes for a much cooler Instagram

In reply to jon:

Re your first entry, as usual spot on. My wife has done MB eight times, including several repeats of the ordinary routes, simply because they are, or were beautiful when they weren't so crowded. I've done it twice from the Brenva side and those routes gave me intense satisfaction.  Which is why I suggest to  potentially serious climbers today, if you want to prove yourself and win the respect of your fellows, your objective  should be the Verte and build up to that through the many other easier great routes at lesser altitude. Don't spoil your MB experience by climbing it in a heaving mass: keep the pleasure of doing it for the first time until you are ready for the more serious routes on the mountain.  

In reply to didntcomelast:

Well I think job satisfaction is perhaps a better description than pleasure. The same as any job - a happy client makes the job satisfying. Sure there's an element of pleasure in that, but it's a different sort of pleasure than you get out with friends, for instance. As I said, I thought the rest of your post was spot on, especially this part:

 

In reply to didntcomelast:

I've have to say that over the years I've not seen a lot to suggest that guides are doing it for the pleasure of their clients. An arrogant contempt for them, along with anyone else who 'gets in their way' seems more common as they drag their hapless clients up and back down again in an unholy rush to get back to the bar.

 

In reply to pec:

I think its unfair to lump all guides in the same boat, as it were.  Its like ski instructors - some thrive on teaching and nurturing complete novices and really get something out of seeing the rapid learning curve whereas others get bored as anything - but have to do it to earn a crust.

In reply to pec:

I've never climbed with a guide (other than  friends who happen to be guides) but have ski toured with at least 3 French guides as a client and they were clearly enjoying themselves (one is now a friend)

In reply to Misha:

People climb it because it is a superb and accessible route up the highest and finest mountain in Europe. It is a mountain with fantastic routes at all grades! With a bit of cunning it should be possible to avoid the crowds......

In reply to pec:

That’s unfair on most guides. As for the rush, objective dangers and weather conditions are a tad more important than the beer (which is also important of course). 

In reply to Misha:

During the 150 year celebrations of the first ascent of the Gouter route, (1861-2011), I remember talking to the head guide at St Gervais.  He pointed out that for many people the Gouter route was their first experience of a "proper" alpine route.  He said he never tired of taking people up the mountain because for so many of his clients it was the start of a love affair that would add tremendous pleasure and perspective to their lives.

I am lucky enough to live at exactly where there tarmac stops and the path begins, so I have been able to walk out my front door to the summit without any man made interference.  The best hike I have ever done, though it took me considerably longer than the 2h30 that Kilian Jornet apparently needed.

 

In reply to Misha:

Because it is Western Europes highest mountain and can be climbed by anyone with a decent bit of fitness. I read a Charlie Boscoe article on UKC 2 years ago about climbing Mont Blanc. He said it was achievable for competent winter hill walkers. I would classify myself and my girlfriend as hillwalkers so we thought we would give it a go unguided. We loved it. The views and experience were amazing. The tram wasn't running so we walked to the Gouter hut from the Bellevue cable car. Then summited and walked all the way down to the valley (as we missed the last cable car!). Also we picked one of the last days the Gouter was open in September so It was a bit quiter than normal. Also unseasonal snowfall had prevented it from summited in the days prior to us, so it felt like more of a challenge as the tracks weren't as good as normal. All in all a very worthwhile aspiration if you are a hillwalker like us.

 

Link to my Mont Blanc walk report: 

https://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=75996

In reply to msp1987:

Nice one, sounds a great trip

In reply to msp1987:

Great! And so refreshing that you not only enjoyed it, but that you were impressed by it too. 

In reply to GrahamD:

In reply to Misha:

Clearly not all guides are rude, arrogant and impatient but my observation over many years and many trips to the Alps is that a large number of guides fall into this category, it really isn't just the odd rogue one or two and quite a few are downright dangerous, sometimes I wonder how they ever got qualified.

I could reel off a list of examples as long as your arm or you could read through this thread to see my experiences are far from unique

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/expedition+alpine/dont_book_this_guide-68...

but here's one example from the Dent du Geant last year. The rudest guide I've ever encountred completely blanked me at every stance, complained to his fellow guides repeatedly about how useless his client was within his client's earshot and offered him no helpful advice or encouragement even though his client was clearly bricking himself and made worse by his guides rudeness.

Belayed his client on several small stances without bothering to clip himself into anything, I know speed is safety but really, how long does it take to clip the cowstail that's already on your waist into a bolt in front of your face? Even after his client had fallen off he continued to belay him whilst unsecured.

On the descent he followed me down one of the abseils, I was off route because I've never been there before and couldn't see the next rap anchor, he should know the route but unthinkingly followed me. Going blindly over an overhang I had to use my momentum to swing in to a ledge and set up a trad belay (before making a traverse to get back to the bolt ab station). The guide followed me over but whereas I was on double 60's he was on a single 60m rope and found himself hanging free in space with less than a metre of rope left with no knots in the end at least 200m off the ground.

Now he was bricking himself and we probably saved his life by throwing spare rope out to him to tie into and hauling him in to the belay. He very grugingly offered a miserable thanks before barging past us in his unholy rush to get off the mountain on a day with the most stable weather you could ever imagine in the Alps where there really was no reason to rush at all.

And of course they don't have to do it. If they find there clients such a hindrance they could just get a real job and climb in their spare time.