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So some scrote has my trusty Latok Alpine off of the back seat of the car and the insurance company pays out for that and the various other bits and bobs from the car. I now need a winter walking jacket, suitable of going anywhere in the Highlands during the next, aw crap, 7 months. So back to original Q,fancy trying Goretex; Arcteryx Beta pro shell, better than ME Kalanka/tuipac shakur (close?) pro shell?
In reply to duckman:
As an Arcteryx owner/fan, I would say - if you can get it on sale yes, if you can't no.
As an Arcteryx owner/fan, I would say - if you can get it on sale yes, if you can't no.
In reply to duckman:
Its like rolls royce: the quality, performance and construction is reflected in the price, but you can still get to the shops in a hyundai.
Its like rolls royce: the quality, performance and construction is reflected in the price, but you can still get to the shops in a hyundai.
In reply to ice.solo: I bought a new ME Tupilak this week for half the price of the equivalent Alpha SV with discount from Cotswold. Hood closure is better on the Alpha, in all other respects I prefer the fit of the ME (I'm a slim jim). He-men or beer monsters may prefer to go with US/Canada sizing.
In reply to ice.solo:
Mostly what is reflected in the price is the premium you pay for the brand.
Arcteryx kit isn't objectively twice as good as the competition, but still costs twice as much. The extra cost isn't worth it for me; YMMV (and you may of course be much richer!).
> Its like rolls royce: the quality, performance and construction is reflected in the price
Mostly what is reflected in the price is the premium you pay for the brand.
Arcteryx kit isn't objectively twice as good as the competition, but still costs twice as much. The extra cost isn't worth it for me; YMMV (and you may of course be much richer!).
In reply to BnB:
That's interesting; I've found ME medium fits me well like Arcteryx, Marmot and Patagonia. It's RAB that is too slim in the shoulders and chest for me in medium, but if I got up to large then I have flappy arms and to much body length.
Not much of a beer monster so I must be a he-man. The missus will be delighted to hear.
> in all other respects I prefer the fit of the ME (I'm a slim jim). He-men or beer monsters may prefer to go with US/Canada sizing.
That's interesting; I've found ME medium fits me well like Arcteryx, Marmot and Patagonia. It's RAB that is too slim in the shoulders and chest for me in medium, but if I got up to large then I have flappy arms and to much body length.
Not much of a beer monster so I must be a he-man. The missus will be delighted to hear.
In reply to Shearwater:
partly. the arcteryx brand also develops many of its own fabrics and production process, and also trains and insures its workers to a standard almost unheard of in oother companies. so yes, some of the price is the wank-value of the little bird thing, but some is also the brands standards.
agreed, its not twice as good, but its often far more developed. they use all sorts of proprietry methods rarely used by other companies due to cost. by owning their own facilities and having workers trained in the technologies they use they have a a greater R&D process than most others who use common brand factories and technology shared by many.
whether it makes it twice as (or whatever the cost ratio is) depends what you deem as good. almost double the stitch count takes almost double the time to sew and produces a seam almost twice as strong. their seam taping etc too is also at a much higher standard than most.
as a product, id say some of their stuff is twice as good as some of the competition if judged on quality, innovation, development etc. whether it functions twice as well is debatable tho.
> (In reply to ice.solo)
> [...]
>
> Mostly what is reflected in the price is the premium you pay for the brand.
> [...]
>
> Mostly what is reflected in the price is the premium you pay for the brand.
partly. the arcteryx brand also develops many of its own fabrics and production process, and also trains and insures its workers to a standard almost unheard of in oother companies. so yes, some of the price is the wank-value of the little bird thing, but some is also the brands standards.
>
> Arcteryx kit isn't objectively twice as good as the competition, but still costs twice as much. The extra cost isn't worth it for me; YMMV (and you may of course be much richer!).
> Arcteryx kit isn't objectively twice as good as the competition, but still costs twice as much. The extra cost isn't worth it for me; YMMV (and you may of course be much richer!).
agreed, its not twice as good, but its often far more developed. they use all sorts of proprietry methods rarely used by other companies due to cost. by owning their own facilities and having workers trained in the technologies they use they have a a greater R&D process than most others who use common brand factories and technology shared by many.
whether it makes it twice as (or whatever the cost ratio is) depends what you deem as good. almost double the stitch count takes almost double the time to sew and produces a seam almost twice as strong. their seam taping etc too is also at a much higher standard than most.
as a product, id say some of their stuff is twice as good as some of the competition if judged on quality, innovation, development etc. whether it functions twice as well is debatable tho.
In reply to ice.solo:
I find my Atom LT "twice as good" as the Montane Prism it replaced - better cut, materials, comfort etc.
But didn't pay twice as much for it because I got it half price. Win!
I find my Atom LT "twice as good" as the Montane Prism it replaced - better cut, materials, comfort etc.
But didn't pay twice as much for it because I got it half price. Win!
In reply to duckman:
I wouldn't worry about brand too much but in your place I'd definitely go for one of the new more breathable materials - Active Shell, Neo Shell etc.
I got a Rab Stretch Neo jacket a few weeks ago when my old Event jacket ceased to be even slightly water resistant and am delighted with it. Styed compeltely dry when I took it out in pouring rain; tested the breathability by doing a strenuous uphill hike in it in conditions where I would normally just wear a windshirt. Felt a bit clammier inside than I would with a windshirt, but nowhere near as bad as with a normal goretex jacket.
(Another half price win in the Snow & Rock summer sale)
I wouldn't worry about brand too much but in your place I'd definitely go for one of the new more breathable materials - Active Shell, Neo Shell etc.
I got a Rab Stretch Neo jacket a few weeks ago when my old Event jacket ceased to be even slightly water resistant and am delighted with it. Styed compeltely dry when I took it out in pouring rain; tested the breathability by doing a strenuous uphill hike in it in conditions where I would normally just wear a windshirt. Felt a bit clammier inside than I would with a windshirt, but nowhere near as bad as with a normal goretex jacket.
(Another half price win in the Snow & Rock summer sale)
In reply to duckman:
Do you need to pay for high price Arcteryzx jackets to walk/climb in Scotland ? clearly not
Worth the money ? only you can decide. Some people find it worth the money because they want the brand
Do you need to pay for high price Arcteryzx jackets to walk/climb in Scotland ? clearly not
Worth the money ? only you can decide. Some people find it worth the money because they want the brand
In reply to duckman:
I have never been disappointed with ANYTHING I've got from Arc'teryx - they are expensive, but if you can afford it why not! If you don't have silly amounts of money to throw around then find the best garment your budget will allow.
My biggest problem is that most brands feel a bit tight (round the shoulders) and Arc' fit perfectly - sods law !
I have never been disappointed with ANYTHING I've got from Arc'teryx - they are expensive, but if you can afford it why not! If you don't have silly amounts of money to throw around then find the best garment your budget will allow.
My biggest problem is that most brands feel a bit tight (round the shoulders) and Arc' fit perfectly - sods law !
In reply to TobyA:
What is it with Rab and their sizing? I'm hardly massively shouldered, and take medium in everything, but I can't wear anything Rab in that size, it's like wearing a straight jacket round the shoulders and chest. There's a few Rab bits I've wanted to buy, but just can't fit in them.
In reply to the question, 'Is Arcteryx worth the money' is a subjective choice, but generally I think their stuff is better designed and cut than other brands, but of course depends on whether it fits you and whether you're willing to pay for it.
What is it with Rab and their sizing? I'm hardly massively shouldered, and take medium in everything, but I can't wear anything Rab in that size, it's like wearing a straight jacket round the shoulders and chest. There's a few Rab bits I've wanted to buy, but just can't fit in them.
In reply to the question, 'Is Arcteryx worth the money' is a subjective choice, but generally I think their stuff is better designed and cut than other brands, but of course depends on whether it fits you and whether you're willing to pay for it.
In reply to JayPee630:
Dunno, but interesting because they're pretty much the only brand I've found where the women's cut isn't a dramatically better fit on me than the men's.
> What is it with Rab and their sizing? I'm hardly massively shouldered, and take medium in everything, but I can't wear anything Rab in that size, it's like wearing a straight jacket round the shoulders and chest. There's a few Rab bits I've wanted to buy, but just can't fit in them.
Dunno, but interesting because they're pretty much the only brand I've found where the women's cut isn't a dramatically better fit on me than the men's.
In reply to Carolyn:
Yeah, they just seem to make some dramatic hip flare thing and then make them in horrible colours!
Yeah, they just seem to make some dramatic hip flare thing and then make them in horrible colours!
In reply to JayPee630: But some people love RAB for exactly that reason! Tall scrawny people I guess.
In reply to TobyA:
Yeah for sure, but since I've heard more comments on the Rab sizing than any other brand seems a bit odd for them to be so restrictive with their choice of size. Guess maybe they think it's OK and sells fine.
Yeah for sure, but since I've heard more comments on the Rab sizing than any other brand seems a bit odd for them to be so restrictive with their choice of size. Guess maybe they think it's OK and sells fine.
In reply to JayPee630:
Actually, my whinge - a few years back - was that the women's didn't flare out at the hip, so maybe I'm to blame.....
> Yeah, they just seem to make some dramatic hip flare thing and then make them in horrible colours!
Actually, my whinge - a few years back - was that the women's didn't flare out at the hip, so maybe I'm to blame.....
In reply to scarface:
Although I think it's noticeably less windproof. Have you noticed that?
> Just buy any neo-shell - it pisses on Gtx.
Although I think it's noticeably less windproof. Have you noticed that?
In reply to TobyA:
I've got the rab neoshell trousers & 1st generation neoshell jacket.
Although it's "only" 99.9% windproof, I've not noticed any issues. The jacket has been used extensively, walking in the Peak and in North Wales, so it's not had any serious gales to put up with, but like I said, I can't seem to notice the 0.1% wind getting through.
I have ridden my bike to the pub wearing it too, and again, didn't feel the wind penetrating.
Having said all that, I don't notice the wind getting through my powersheild (not pro) jacket either, which claims a 98% windproofing....
I've got the rab neoshell trousers & 1st generation neoshell jacket.
Although it's "only" 99.9% windproof, I've not noticed any issues. The jacket has been used extensively, walking in the Peak and in North Wales, so it's not had any serious gales to put up with, but like I said, I can't seem to notice the 0.1% wind getting through.
I have ridden my bike to the pub wearing it too, and again, didn't feel the wind penetrating.
Having said all that, I don't notice the wind getting through my powersheild (not pro) jacket either, which claims a 98% windproofing....
In reply to duckman: slightly off original topic but to add my 2p.
I always thought the RAB sizing thing was just me! I really like the look of lots of their stuff but it just never fits. It is not like I am a crazy size but in RAB anything that fits around the body is ridiculously long in the arms.
I''m becoming a big Montane fan......
Never been able to persuade myself to try the Arcteryx stuff - near me the sensible shoes/ironed jeans/striped shirt tim-nice-but-dim brigade have started to swap their North face jackets for Arcteryx. Down hill from here I think.
I always thought the RAB sizing thing was just me! I really like the look of lots of their stuff but it just never fits. It is not like I am a crazy size but in RAB anything that fits around the body is ridiculously long in the arms.
I''m becoming a big Montane fan......
Never been able to persuade myself to try the Arcteryx stuff - near me the sensible shoes/ironed jeans/striped shirt tim-nice-but-dim brigade have started to swap their North face jackets for Arcteryx. Down hill from here I think.
In reply to Dan_S:
I thought I noticed it with the first neoshell I tried http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=4425 oddly the first time was on a bike, pulling it on over just a t-shirt and riding to the shop for some milk when it was about -5. I was sure that I could feel air coming through on my lower arms which were bare under the jacket. Also going out of the house on very cold nights, normally to go out xc skiing I thought I could feel it, but it was always very marginal with the zion and normally with midlayers under you didn't notice. I'm now testing another neoshell jacket which is slightly lighter and this time in much worse weather (high in Arctic Norway, temps well below freezing and strong winds) it was more noticeable, and I was left thinking Goretex doesn't feel like this. It's not to say it necessarily a bad thing - because its so breathable - but it is a 'thing' all the same.
> Although it's "only" 99.9% windproof, I've not noticed any issues. The jacket has been used extensively, walking in the Peak and in North Wales, so it's not had any serious gales to put up with, but like I said, I can't seem to notice the 0.1% wind getting through.
I thought I noticed it with the first neoshell I tried http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=4425 oddly the first time was on a bike, pulling it on over just a t-shirt and riding to the shop for some milk when it was about -5. I was sure that I could feel air coming through on my lower arms which were bare under the jacket. Also going out of the house on very cold nights, normally to go out xc skiing I thought I could feel it, but it was always very marginal with the zion and normally with midlayers under you didn't notice. I'm now testing another neoshell jacket which is slightly lighter and this time in much worse weather (high in Arctic Norway, temps well below freezing and strong winds) it was more noticeable, and I was left thinking Goretex doesn't feel like this. It's not to say it necessarily a bad thing - because its so breathable - but it is a 'thing' all the same.
In reply to djellworth:
No, same here. They make some great stuff but it's just too tight across the back and shoulders and too billowy around the waist. I like the long arms though. Must be hard to try and fit everybody, but we assume they know what they're doing and have done their research - and they're still in business. They've missed out a thousand quid or more from me though.
Nowadays I find if I'm going to spend this kind of money on clothes I want them to fit as well as possible, which rules out lots of popular brands. I found Direct Alpine jackets to have a good climbing fit - trim waist, wide shoulders, long arms, protective hood - http://www.directalpine.com - and the Dynafit clothing seems similar - http://www.dynafit.com/products-winter/clothing.html.
Arc'teryx stuff, I really like most of what they do but the prices, particularly in the UK and EU are just way too much for me. Pretty much any Arc I have I got on sale. I like that they make the effort to be excellent though, so I won't knock them. Their fit has varied a bit over the years, at least in the lines I've used, but most companies are the same. Some also vary fit between different lines for different end-use, as Patagonia do.
> (In reply to duckman) slightly off original topic but to add my 2p.
>
> I always thought the RAB sizing thing was just me! I really like the look of lots of their stuff but it just never fits.
>
> I always thought the RAB sizing thing was just me! I really like the look of lots of their stuff but it just never fits.
No, same here. They make some great stuff but it's just too tight across the back and shoulders and too billowy around the waist. I like the long arms though. Must be hard to try and fit everybody, but we assume they know what they're doing and have done their research - and they're still in business. They've missed out a thousand quid or more from me though.
Nowadays I find if I'm going to spend this kind of money on clothes I want them to fit as well as possible, which rules out lots of popular brands. I found Direct Alpine jackets to have a good climbing fit - trim waist, wide shoulders, long arms, protective hood - http://www.directalpine.com - and the Dynafit clothing seems similar - http://www.dynafit.com/products-winter/clothing.html.
Arc'teryx stuff, I really like most of what they do but the prices, particularly in the UK and EU are just way too much for me. Pretty much any Arc I have I got on sale. I like that they make the effort to be excellent though, so I won't knock them. Their fit has varied a bit over the years, at least in the lines I've used, but most companies are the same. Some also vary fit between different lines for different end-use, as Patagonia do.
In reply to TobyA:
It's true of all air permeable fabrics, including Event; they let a little air through. I'm not sure about the new Gore-tex Pro, but everything after Gen I Gore-tex was not air-permeable, due to the continuous PU smear to deal with oil contamination.
Air permeability is a double-edged sword; lets the fug out a bit better, but some warmth goes with the fug...
> and I was left thinking Goretex doesn't feel like this. It's not to say it necessarily a bad thing - because its so breathable - but it is a 'thing' all the same.
It's true of all air permeable fabrics, including Event; they let a little air through. I'm not sure about the new Gore-tex Pro, but everything after Gen I Gore-tex was not air-permeable, due to the continuous PU smear to deal with oil contamination.
Air permeability is a double-edged sword; lets the fug out a bit better, but some warmth goes with the fug...
In reply to djellworth:
No need to worry - Arcteryx make a special range just for them
http://arcteryx.com/ProductFind.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&collec...
> near me the sensible shoes/ironed jeans/striped shirt tim-nice-but-dim brigade have started to swap their North face jackets for Arcteryx. Down hill from here I think.
No need to worry - Arcteryx make a special range just for them
http://arcteryx.com/ProductFind.aspx?language=EN&gender=mens&collec...
In reply to nufkin: In the world of Alpine skiing, Arcteryx has long been the brand of choice for the investment banker, rather than the ski guide. The more expensive mountain restaurants are full of Gamma jackets. When I came across to climbing I was surprised to find the brand was so respected at the gnarly end of the stick.
The old gag about "all the gear but no idea" doesn't really apply to wealthy people who've skied two or three times a year since their youth. But perhaps in Val d'Isere it's the brand that shouts: "I've all the gear, now is the sky clear?"
I've never seen a snowboarder wearing Arcteryx, mind.
The old gag about "all the gear but no idea" doesn't really apply to wealthy people who've skied two or three times a year since their youth. But perhaps in Val d'Isere it's the brand that shouts: "I've all the gear, now is the sky clear?"
I've never seen a snowboarder wearing Arcteryx, mind.
In reply to duckman: I paid full price (more or less) for my Atom LT hoody, and it's far and away the best piece of gear I've ever owned, as a mid layer or outer in Scottish Winter, as a warmer layer for Alpine summer and as a belay jacket in the UK. My only regret is that I got it in black instead of camera-friendly red.
In reply to nufkin:
Way too neat. Exactly. Looks all wrong with a bobble hat.
> (In reply to BnB)
>
> [...]
>
> Not baggy enough?
>
> [...]
>
> Not baggy enough?
Way too neat. Exactly. Looks all wrong with a bobble hat.
In reply to duckman: I'm looking for a new waterproof at the minute to replace my knackered superfly jacket. Tried on the rab neoshell one but the arms are really long and it's fairly baggy. Has any tried the arcteryx alpha sl hybrid jacket?
In reply to cuilcagh:
Most of my Kit is Arcteryx,Alpha Lt/Sv hardshells, climbing trews Harness etc
Well made Kit and I've picked it all up
Much cheaper than Rrp which I personally Don't think it's worth the money And I have a fair bit of product, if you can pick it up cheaper then it's worth it otherwise I wouldn't say it's worth full Rrp
I've also got the Atom Lt and Sv and whilst there good jkts nowhere near worth £180/£200! Compared to a montage Flux jkt or Rab Generator Alpine,M.e Fitzroy
Rab Neoshell jkt pisses over both my Alpha jkts at half the price! If it fits you!
Your buying into a top of the line brand with a price tag to match, All Kit Rrps are only going one way North.
if you've got the Disposable Readies then spend it otherwise having an eye for a bargain is very Beneficial in the kit game
Most of my Kit is Arcteryx,Alpha Lt/Sv hardshells, climbing trews Harness etc
Well made Kit and I've picked it all up
Much cheaper than Rrp which I personally Don't think it's worth the money And I have a fair bit of product, if you can pick it up cheaper then it's worth it otherwise I wouldn't say it's worth full Rrp
I've also got the Atom Lt and Sv and whilst there good jkts nowhere near worth £180/£200! Compared to a montage Flux jkt or Rab Generator Alpine,M.e Fitzroy
Rab Neoshell jkt pisses over both my Alpha jkts at half the price! If it fits you!
Your buying into a top of the line brand with a price tag to match, All Kit Rrps are only going one way North.
if you've got the Disposable Readies then spend it otherwise having an eye for a bargain is very Beneficial in the kit game
In reply to cuilcagh: Personally I think Arc'teryx is generally very good kit, but whether it's worth it depends on what you can afford. On the Alpha SL jacket, it's not meant to be too much of an all-round shell more of a 'just in case' kind of jacket. For an all-rounder I would go for the Alpha LT jacket. Stronger and more breathable for very little extra weight.
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