UKC

Belaying with krab and tube on swami belt

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 oldie 25 May 2020

Is there any reason why someone should not belay bottom roping using a tube device linked direct to a swami belt with a krab? ( I still use a waist belay for this myself.)

Context.  My son is going to southern sandstone with his two flatmates for a bit of lockdown fun. They're  careful and responsible adults (wish I could say the same  ).

They have all toproped a little on walls, and I toproped my son years ago at Harrison's and Portland. I'll be meeting my son to give him some gear (I'd rather not lend my regular gear in case I get a chance to go climbing myself). They only have one harness, and belay tube between them..

 However it will be most convenient if all three have some sort of harness for roping up and belaying. I have 5m of 25mm tape for a swami belt, I'm happy for somebody not to use a sit harness in this instance (there's a note in the current guide mentioning that older climbers still tie in direct). I've also got an old Davek harness in good condition which has no belay loop, but one could use the tie in loop of the rope for the krab and tube, or thread a short sling through the tie in points and clip the belay krab  through its ends.  I don't want to suggest many techniques that they're not familiar with, as I won't be with them..

 deacondeacon 25 May 2020
In reply to oldie:

Personally I'd say that if they're experienced enough to make the decision themselves then there is no issue at all with using a swami belt and/or body belay but if they're inexperienced then probably better to stick with modern harnesses and belay plates. And yes I know lots of you oldies learnt that way, and it's still used on southern sandstone but there's a reason that things have moved on  

 Pedro50 25 May 2020
In reply to oldie:

In the 70s I fell off a route at Harrisons with the rope tied round my waist. The belayer was unable to lower me because the bottom roping system jammed at the top of the crag. I was able to do a baboon roll to get the weight off my diaphragm before death approached. A useful technique to have practised. 

Post edited at 20:42
In reply to oldie:

Tie the tape to make an 8 foot sling and use this as a dulfer seat. Much more comfortable than a belt. 

OP oldie 25 May 2020
In reply to deacondeacon:

Thanks. They're inexperienced apart from some toproping. The thing is I can't get hold of extra harnesses to give him, so a swami belt and Davek harness for his flatmates would seem reasonable for this relatively undemanding toprope application. I won't teach him to waist belay, especially as I won't be climbing with them to supervise. I can't really see why a tube device and screwgate can't be used here, directly clipped to a swami belt, but I'd like to be sure there's no risk in doing so.

1
OP oldie 25 May 2020
In reply to Pedro50:

Same happened to me....rope jammed in one of the deep groves worn by the rope. I quickly got the weight off my diaphragm by tying a loop in the rope betwen the belayer and top krab and standing init. Happily the rope grooves have all been filled so the rope is unlikely to jam, and also the rocks will probably be rammed so help will be at hand.

OP oldie 25 May 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

For years I used to abseil using a similar setup. I'm not quite certain that one couldn't fall out of it in the unlikely event of inversion. I could easily provide an extra sling to make leg loops for a swami, which might be more foolproof. Nobody has as yet suggested that belaying with a tube device off a swami is dangerous in any way when bottom roping.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Tie the tape to make an 8 foot sling and use this as a dulfer seat. Much more comfortable than a belt. 

Dulfer seat, is when you abseil using the rope wrapped around your body and nothing else. Maybe except for lederhosen.

In reply to oldie:

I don't think using a swami is dangerous per se, any danger will come from the discomfort taking the be layers mind off the task in hand. 

I used dulfer seats a lot in my early climbing, back then I needed to tie o knot in the sling to get it to fit, sadly no longer. 

I still use them now on occasion, they are great for lightweight trips, cuillin ridge, classic Rock round sort of thing. Also very useful on those days you have neglected to pack your harness. 

An inverted fall could be problematic, to safeguard against this tie the rope around your waist first, then to the crab holding the dulfer together, leaving enough slack so the dulfer takes the load. 

 Steve Clegg 25 May 2020
In reply to Pedro50:

I was able to do a baboon roll ...

That I would have paid good money to see! You don't perhaps have a photograph?

Clegg

In reply to Stefan Jacobsen:

Thanks, like a man in orthopaedic shoes I stand corrected. 

35 years of using the wrong terminology, oops. 

What I mean is 8 foot sling, grab a loop around each hip and one between the legs, link with a crab. Insta harness. 

What is the correct name? 

 Pedro50 25 May 2020
In reply to Steve Clegg:

> I was able to do a baboon roll ...

> That I would have paid good money to see! You don't perhaps have a photograph?

> Clegg

I was very careful with spelling in my post. LOL. Peter 

 Ian Parsons 25 May 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> What is the correct name? 

I think Americans tend to call it a diaper sling, because it goes on like a nappy. I wonder whether you simply mixed up two six-letter words starting with 'd' - easily done bearing in mind Dulfer's existing association with abseiling.

OP oldie 25 May 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

I don't know the correct name....I used to refer to it simply as a sitsling. I also used a shorter sling for abseiling sometimes: just formed a figure 8, put legs through each loop and clipped krab where they crossed.

 wivanov 26 May 2020
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Isn't it "Swiss Seat" or "Hasty Harness"?

 Ian Parsons 26 May 2020
In reply to wivanov:

I've never heard the term 'Hasty Harness', but as I understand it the 'Swiss Seat' was simply a variation on the standard method of tying a multi-wrap swami - generally involving about twenty feet of one-inch webbing - that threw in a couple of leg loops; this could be handy if the day's agenda included aid climbing, but was probably unnecessary for the typical free climbing of the day - this being 1960s/early '70s. [Coming from the US you'll know more about this than I do.] The diaper sling, on the other hand - or indeed the figure-8 one mentioned above by 'oldie' - was, by contrast, an impromptu measure that could be quickly arranged using an existing sling for abseiling, or indeed for any other activity that involved hanging on a rope for longer than originally expected. Of course various sit harnesses - Whillans, Lowe Alpine, Forrest, Robertson - had been gradually gaining popularity since their introduction in the early '70s, such that by the latter half of the decade they and their successors were pretty much ubiquitous standard kit that effectively removed any need for 'add-on' legloops.


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