UKC

/ Blue tooth speaker comp

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meggies - on 30 Jul 2018

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/ukc/win_a_goal_zero_rock_out_2_speaker-690250

Disappointed to see a competition for one of these on UKC.

Have no place at the crag or on the hill in my opinion, and their use in such places should be discouraged. In camp, no problem (with the usual caveats).

Normally ask politely (with explanation when necessary) for them to be turned off, and most people are ok with that. Had to do it more often in the last year or so though.

Post edited at 09:57
4
phizz4 - on 30 Jul 2018
In reply to meggies:

Absolutely agree. No place in the outdoors, be it crags, mountains or wherever.

5
Billymo - on 30 Jul 2018
In reply to meggies:

If a speaker plays music in the woods but there is nobody there to hear it does it make a noise?

1
Deadeye - on 30 Jul 2018
In reply to Billymo:

If the OP asked their question in a wood, and there was no one who read it, would they still be wrong?

1
Andy Johnson on 30 Jul 2018
In reply to meggies:

I agree.

PaulW - on 30 Jul 2018
In reply to meggies:

I think it depends where you are, the great outdoors is not all the same. Yes, if you had made the effort to trek in for hours to as close as we can get to wilderness then yes, peace and quiet would be nice.

On the other hand if you can't be bothered and go somewhere roadside like Stanedge then accept that other people will be there enjoying THEIR day, put up with it or go elsewhere

27
toad - on 30 Jul 2018
In reply to meggies:

I entered. I would not use it at the crag, but i have been known to sjt outside listening to music in the garden on occasion. 

James Malloch - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to meggies:

> Normally ask politely (with explanation when necessary) for them to be turned off, and most people are ok with that. Had to do it more often in the last year or so though.

 

So people do something they enjoy (but others might not) and when asked not to they generally comply. Sounds okay, no?

I'd sooner have had a bit of music than the hordes of people's Hex's jangling their way up Tryfan a few weeks ago. Especially when combined with lots of confused shouts of "SAFE... "ARE YOU SAFE".... "YES!"... "WHAT?!"... echoing through the valley. Then repeat for the next 5 parties queuing up below.

But of course that's fine as it's Trad climbing and surely it doesn't annoy anyone else's experience....

 

14
GrahamD - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to James Malloch:

> So people do something they enjoy (but others might not) and when asked not to they generally comply. Sounds okay, no?

No.  You shouldn't need to ask.  Plenty of people would be too shy but nevertheless they are having their experience of the countryside ruined.

> But of course that's fine as it's Trad climbing and surely it doesn't annoy anyone else's experience....

On the East face of Tryfan ? I very much doubt there is anyone but people climbing trad there.  I'm impressed you can hear hexes from more than a couple of paces away, mind.

3
ianstevens - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to GrahamD:

Well its mainly a ladder so quite a few soloists.

I'm with the first poster - and actually find hexes more annoying than speakers. But for perspective, both more annoying than a rash.

planetmarshall on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to James Malloch:

> So people do something they enjoy (but others might not) and when asked not to they generally comply. Sounds okay, no?

That's absurd. If you're going to do something which you know may upset the majority of people around you, then you ask first. "Excuse me, would you mind if I played some music?". Just going ahead and doing it anyway in the knowledge that British reserve will probably prevent anyone asking you to stop, is otherwise known as being a dick.

1
James Malloch - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to GrahamD:

> No.  You shouldn't need to ask.  Plenty of people would be too shy but nevertheless they are having their experience of the countryside ruined.

I think this is becoming an old expectation. As we encourage more people into the outdoors the normal boundaries are bound to change. If people are truly having their experiences ruined then it's likely due to lack of education.

It's all well and good blasting a UKC competition, but nature and music can happily co-exist and if someone doesn't like that then they should not assume the others are intending (or indeed realise) to ruin their day, more so they should talk to them and explain their views. If they're not willing to do that then there are always more remote areas where they can avoid such situations. Or they can put up with it and then complain on the internet...

> On the East face of Tryfan ? I very much doubt there is anyone but people climbing trad there.  I'm impressed you can hear hexes from more than a couple of paces away, mind.

Whichever side the Milestone boulders are. There were a fair few walkers around and some footpaths in that area. But you can extend the logic to anywhere including those places with a lot of non-climbers - Stanage sounds like a windchime on a busy weekend, again complete with a lot of shouting between partners. 

5
GrahamD - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to James Malloch:

> I think this is becoming an old expectation. As we encourage more people into the outdoors the normal boundaries are bound to change. If people are truly having their experiences ruined then it's likely due to lack of education.

What ? are you proposing that people need to be educated into accepting other people's amplified noise pollution ? really ?

> Whichever side the Milestone boulders are. There were a fair few walkers around and some footpaths in that area. But you can extend the logic to anywhere including those places with a lot of non-climbers - Stanage sounds like a windchime on a busy weekend, again complete with a lot of shouting between partners. 

I think you are overstating the decibel level of jingling hexes, to be honest.  Loud shouts of "take in slack", "tying in", etc. I'd agree also have no place in the countryside - people should show more consideration with shouting.   But its not one or the other.  That is classic "whataboutery".

2
James Malloch - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to planetmarshall:

> That's absurd. If you're going to do something which you know may upset the majority of people around you, then you ask first. "Excuse me, would you mind if I played some music?". Just going ahead and doing it anyway in the knowledge that British reserve will probably prevent anyone asking you to stop, is otherwise known as being a dick.

The noise people make, the chalk they leave, the erosion they cause, the foliage they trample, the bad parking they do at busy venues. Looking at it from an external view - we're all being dicks and ruining something for someone. 

And I think your point comes back to education. You know others might not want music playing, I know it too, but not everyone realises and we can't expect everyone to and using the "British reserve" to ignore an opportunity to educate someone in this regard seems absurd. And at the end of the day they still have as much right to play music in the wild as we all do to cover rocks in chalk and do what we enjoy. 

 

3
James Malloch - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to GrahamD:

> What ? are you proposing that people need to be educated into accepting other people's amplified noise pollution ? really ?

No - I'm saying that if you chuck a load of new people into a situation (or outdoor area) the average view of whats acceptable will change. Therefore rather than criticizing a competition offering a speaker as a prize, if you see things happening which you don't think is acceptable then you should try to educate others about why you have your views.

> I think you are overstating the decibel level of jingling hexes, to be honest.  Loud shouts of "take in slack", "tying in", etc. I'd agree also have no place in the countryside - people should show more consideration with shouting.   But its not one or the other.  That is classic "whataboutery".

I've no idea on the Db level but I could hear it from about 100m+ away. What I'm saying is that the majority of people hear complaining about the use of speakers (which can be done considerately - if I'd have had one on at the weekend then I'm certain the trad climbers wouldn't have been able to hear it as it would have been at a sensible volume away from the paths) are likely guilty of their own noise pollution which is deemed acceptable.

 

Edit - when saying "you" I mean any collective of people who disagree with something, not you specifically.

Post edited at 10:32
1
planetmarshall on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to James Malloch:

> And at the end of the day they still have as much right to play music in the wild as we all do to cover rocks in chalk and do what we enjoy. 

No, that's just a false equivalence. We are not automatons without social awareness, only capable of making decisions based on what we have the "right" to do instead of being based on the context of our environment. I may have the "right" to sit within earshot of a young family having a picnic and play Malcolm Tucker's Greatest Hits at full volume, but I'm not going to do it on the basis that they should be expected to ask me to stop.

 

2
Fredt on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

> I'm with the first poster - and actually find hexes more annoying than speakers. But for perspective, both more annoying than a rash.

... and don't talk to me about those bloody annoying cowbells in the Alps....

James Malloch - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to planetmarshall:

> No, that's just a false equivalence. We are not automatons without social awareness, only capable of making decisions based on what we have the "right" to do instead of being based on the context of our environment. I may have the "right" to sit within earshot of a young family having a picnic and play Malcolm Tucker's Greatest Hits at full volume, but I'm not going to do it on the basis that they should be expected to ask me to stop.

The point I'm trying to make is that music and the outdoors can coexist whereas the reaction in this thread suggests otherwise. Everyone has different social norms and therefore the different attitudes will exist on this topic.

Your social awareness is such that you recognise the impact it would have on others and therefore wouldn't do it - great, mine too. 

Other's aren't always the same and that's where education comes in. It's all well and good blasting the use of speakers but for those who do it obviously get enjoyment from it and don't realise the impact on others. This happens in all parts of life and you'll never please everyone - it's something that we as climbers are also guilty of but don't change our own ways (shouting, destroying foiliage, etc).

Therefore I think complaining about something whilst acknowledging that people won't address it isn't great and it leads people to the automatic conclusion that the person doing it is "a dick". It tars everyone with the same brush - the assumption that speakers will always disrupt and ruin people's days which just isn't the case. 

1
GrahamD - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to James Malloch:

>The point I'm trying to make is that music and the outdoors can coexist ..

Can and should are very different. Its certainly not in the ethos of national parks.  Imposing your music on the environment clearly isn't in keeping with 2.  Climbing, I would argue, is:

The Environment Act 1995 revised the original legislation and set out two statutory purposes for national parks in England and Wales:

1 Conserve and enhance the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage

2 Promote opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment of the special qualities of national parks by the public

1
James Malloch - on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to GrahamD:

> >The point I'm trying to make is that music and the outdoors can coexist ..

> Can and should are very different. Its certainly not in the ethos of national parks.  Imposing your music on the environment clearly isn't in keeping with 2.  Climbing, I would argue, is:

> The Environment Act 1995 revised the original legislation and set out two statutory purposes for national parks in England and Wales:

> 1 Conserve and enhance the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage

> 2 Promote opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment of the special qualities of national parks by the public

But it's all relative. Of course it "shouldn't" coexist in all cases. If someone is playing music at full volume and annoying everyone - tell them about this ethos. Don't just have a blanket assumption that anyone with a speaker outdoors is doing some form of wrong. Me sitting at some boulders with some appropriate level music doesn't cause any problems if done considerately.

And I'd agree that climbing does fit with that ethos but again, it doesn't mean it sits right with everyone. Our clearing of vegetation at a crag is another persons destruction of habitat. Our use of chalk is another persons graffiti. Someone's use of music is UKC's ruined day. And typically UKC reacts if a way which makes it clear they think it can't coexist in any way:

 

> a disgraceful givaway and endorsement by UKC! KEEP BOOM BOXES OUT OF THE COUNTRYSIDE!

> Absolutely agree. No place in the outdoors, be it crags, mountains or wherever.

> UKC should be ashamed. The unlucky winner should smash it. 

planetmarshall on 31 Jul 2018
In reply to James Malloch:

> The point I'm trying to make is that music and the outdoors can coexist whereas the reaction in this thread suggests otherwise. Everyone has different social norms and therefore the different attitudes will exist on this topic.

Yes, and yes. However my point is that those social norms and attitudes do not have moral equivalence. A person's right to enjoy the outdoors with minimal intrusion trumps the right of someone else who can't enjoy the outdoors without their bluetooth speakers. That's what headphones are for.

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routrax - on 01 Aug 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

I always bring a loud Bluetooth speaker when climbing, though I only play music performed with hexes.

I find it covers the sound of my drill, especially at Rhoscolyn....


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