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Cam irregularities

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 Lucky_Tiger 06 Oct 2018

Hi there,

About 5 weeks ago I have ordered a set of Wild Country cams at an online store. The cams showed to have major irregularities (see pictures in the links below). Obviously I have sent them back for replacement, but unfortunately the replacement cams showed to have the exact same problems.

I have reached out to Wild Country, I was hoping for them to take responsibility with regards to these quality issues and investigate this in a timely manner, however they don't seem to be replying their emails for quite a while now which concerns me.

So I am posting here for 2 reasons, first to have some 2nd opinions with regards to the pictures below, I am interested to hear what experienced trad climbers think of the quality of these unused cams.

2nd reason is to get the word out that anyone that has recently bought the similar cams should have a very close look at them, and if you see similar irregularities, consider your own safety prior to using them.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1craoG4j3NBF-hWtn1GcZllKUkQnKMn3J

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VoQUIfCX9-vXZQ4mgjtBkJjE4YEM-DHy

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gVj683TSSI8Hs6S0b1xTJ3UorNUTMFZb

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QTq4T8tVT3F5BUSWFLGvDypdbRPxbKvV

 

 Jack B 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

I can't really tell from your photos what the problem is. Is it the thin dark line running along the cams, visible in the notches? If so, what is it? A raised bump/ridge? A Crack? or is it smooth but discoloured?

OP Lucky_Tiger 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Jack B:

Yes the cracking between the rock contact surfaces of the lobes. When scratching your nail over it you can feel there is a sharp edge to it.

 olddirtydoggy 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Are we talking about the irregularities on the cam lobes where it appears a grove has been cut out of the side? I can't imagine it would make a huge difference but if there are differences between the way they have been machined and finished then I'd get your money back. Are you certain you have not been sold seconds?

OP Lucky_Tiger 06 Oct 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

The cams are new, meaning it must be a manufacturing error. 

I expect that the lobes are casted, and that the solidification process didnt go well, resulting in cracking in the lobes that can be seen between the rock contact surfaces.

The contact surfaces themselves have been machined after casting, so I think that's why the cracking can't be seen at the uncoated areas. This does not mean that the crack is not there though.

I am not an expert though, they may still hold a good fall and prove to be completely safe during testing. However I don't trust them..

 olddirtydoggy 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Might be a bit like food in the fridge, if in doubt......

1
 TobyA 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

I might be missing something but I can't see anything there I'd be worried about.

 Ridge 06 Oct 2018
In reply to TobyA:

If you look in the grooves between the polished faces of the cams the metal appears to have a spalling or 'flaky' appearance. 

It's hard to tell from the photos if this is just a very rough bit of casting or potentially a crack running through the casting. As the machined faces appear fine it's probably rough casting rather than a structural defect.

I'd assume something like a cam would have a good testing/inspection regime prior to sale though.

 nikoid 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

They do look a bit odd to me, I can see what looks like cracks in the edges of the lobes but difficult to be sure from just looking at a photo so probably worth following up, especially as some climbing gear is now made in China. I always thought the lobes were cut from plate rather than cast which makes it harder to explain cracking. You could ask the BMC to have a look, they have some sort of technical panel that investigates gear problems.

1
 jkarran 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Ridge:

Looks to me like they've been forged, tumbled, anodised then finish machined. They're rougher looking than the kit I'm familiar with from the decade past. I'd want reassurance that's normal personally especially if they were cheap off the internet!

Jk

In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

As others have said - the irregularities between the 'teeth' seem superficial (no crack on the machined surface) and also seem regular in site and appearance between the various pictures suggesting a manufacturing issue rather than a QC problem with an individual cam/lobe. This does seem odd and I would want to question WC about it (or at least check the lobes of a few "definitely Wild Country" cams in a trusted shop) but would trust them if they say it's safe. 

There does also seem to be some pitting inside the 'holes' of the lobes too??

 timjones 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

I don;;t think I can seeanything that I would regard as a major fault that is likely to fail but it's hard to judge without having the cams themselves to look at.

However, I'm not sure that the finish is what I would expect from a major manufacturer. I'd get back to Wild Country and phrase the question somewhere along the lines of "I'm concerned about the poor quaility of the finish and would like to check that the cams are genuine rather than fakes."

 c9smith8 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Hard to say from the pictures. My first guess would have been a material inclusion (created when the raw material was first cast) but that wouldn’t explain why it abruptly stops at the machine finished cam “teeth”. 

Because of that I’d say it was created during the forging process and then machined off of the cams “teeth” so that it’s only visible on the non-machines faces. 

I’d definitely be sending these back to Wild Country!

 C Witter 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Beardy Mike will hopefully be along to give you an informed opinion! 

To be honest, I've no idea. Probably nothing to worry about, but I can see how even a seed of doubt can rapidly sprout when you're run out above one of these!

 ScraggyGoat 06 Oct 2018
In reply to jkarran:

Agree the finish appears a lot poorer than you'd expect from Wild Country, you have possibly been sold cosmetic seconds (in which case nothing to worry about)…….

Have they a batch number stamped on them anywhere?

I'd email the photos and batch number (or tell wild country you can't find a batch number) to Wild Country and ask for clarification.

Wild Country will want to know if a distributor is selling cosmetic seconds without appropriate advertising, or worse they definitely will want to know if there are dodgy imported copies hitting the market (and if there are so do we!).

Edit: Apologies I see you have already been in contact with WC...….when they get back to you let us know both the outcome and also how long they actually took to answer...

Post edited at 19:49
 gethin_allen 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

To me it looks like flashing from the forging process hasn't been fully removed because the parts are recessed. Where the face has been machined the material seems perfectly fine. This shouldn't be a safety issue but cosmetically it looks rough.

 

OP Lucky_Tiger 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Thanks guys for sharing your opinions with me.

Reading the responses I agree the situation could be either one of the following:

  1. At the machined parts the crack is not visible, therefore the irregularity is only rough casting surface and the problem is no more than cosmetically
  2. The crack actually does continue throughout the entire lobe but due to the machining of the relatively soft aluminium at the contact surfaces ('teeth'), the crack is not visible at the machined areas because it has been smeared out

I personally tend to think that the 2nd scenario is more probable, after having looked at the cams closely. (they are now shipped back). I have ordered them at EpicTV shop, so I would not expect them to be copies..

In my opinion any safety device should be flawless when manufactured, and this is totally not acceptable. Wild Country does not seem to have its production processes under control. Hopefully they will follow up ASAP, will keep this forum updated if they do.

Deadeye 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

> Thanks guys for sharing your opinions with me.

> Reading the responses I agree the situation could be either one of the following:

> At the machined parts the crack is not visible, therefore the irregularity is only rough casting surface and the problem is no more than cosmetically

It looks like this to me.

> The crack actually does continue throughout the entire lobe but due to the machining of the relatively soft aluminium at the contact surfaces ('teeth'), the crack is not visible at the machined areas because it has been smeared out

> I personally tend to think that the 2nd scenario is more probable, after having looked at the cams closely. (they are now shipped back). I have ordered them at EpicTV shop, so I would not expect them to be copies..

Disagree. If the casting process has left marks; these would not be removed in the grooves.  I'd day that was more likely

> In my opinion any safety device should be flawless when manufactured, and this is totally not acceptable. Wild Country does not seem to have its production processes under control. Hopefully they will follow up ASAP, will keep this forum updated if they do.

Um, a bit of an over-reaction if the marks are cosmetic.  Previosu genuine issues and the way they have bene handled suggests they *do* have it under control.

So - easy, Tiger - let's wait and see, eh?

 beardy mike 06 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Hi Lucky Tiger - I just saw this and will take a deeper look in a bit - just about to the pub. At first glance I would not say they are anything too serious. First off, the lobes are NOT cast. Cast cams explode underload. This is almost certainly flashing trim that has not been trimmed as neatly as possible. Whilst I can't talk for Wild Country as I don't work with them any more, I did design them so I can give you some insight. Let me sleep on it and I'll give an answer in the AM...

 Mowglee 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Look like poorly trimmed flashing from the forging process to me, although Mike will have much better insight of course.

Do Wild Country even exist any more? There's no UK address on their website any more, just a dodgy looking phone number referencing Central European Time. I know they were bought out by Salewa; looks like bought out and shut down...

 Dell 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Nothing here that I'd be bothered about. 

How are they gonna look after a few falls or after hanging on your harness after a scramble descent? 

It's like moaning about a scratch on a new hammer. 

1
 timparkin 07 Oct 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

It looks like some flow issue of the hot aluminium when they're forged. Is it possible? 

Also I wonder if the marks from hot forging can really be removed when they're barreled?

Here's a carabiner that has only just started having it's rind ground down and you can see there the marks would probably have been originally. 

youtube.com/watch?v=jsauD3xeXto&t=260

Can the barreling process remove marks from between the 'teeth'?

 

 Ridge 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Dell:

> Nothing here that I'd be bothered about. 

> How are they gonna look after a few falls or after hanging on your harness after a scramble descent? 

> It's like moaning about a scratch on a new hammer. 

I take your point, but would have to disagree.

I've just nipped up to the shed and pulled out my BD camalots, HB micromates and some old WC rigid stem friends, (made in England). Although heavily scratched it's clear that the quality of finish is far higher than on the cams in the OP's photo, and they all look like they've been assembled in a machine shop rather than a dinky toy factory.

OK they're now produced in the far east to keep manufacturing costs down, but the roughness of the finish in comparison to the old WC stuff and newer cams from other manufacturers makes me think:

a - are these genuine?

b - if they are, what else are they scrimping on?

Post edited at 16:10
 nacnud 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Ridge:

I've just checked some new WC cams and they all have the same witness lines as the OP. 

That said I don't think its an issue, but I'm not an engineer/materials scientist.

 

Edit, on closer inspection DMM cams have the same witness lines on the back of the cams (the side that doesn't contact the rock) I think these are just an artifact of hot forging. The other cams I have have been machined. 

Post edited at 16:44
In reply to Mowglee:

> Do Wild Country even exist any more? There's no UK address on their website any more, just a dodgy looking phone number referencing Central European Time. I know they were bought out by Salewa; looks like bought out and shut down...

It seems that the brand name is part of the Oberalps Group. Whether WC are that active as a brand is questionable.

Recent email contact to WC uk email address resulted in forwarding to somewhere in Europe. Inital replies came across as if written by those for whom English was not their first language, which itself is not a problem, but they didn’t make any attempt to and never did answered any question I asked! 

Like the OP it’s a bit concerning with the communications now.

Post edited at 17:19
 Dave Cundy 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

I worked on a large engineering project ten years ago where we were casting titanium and then using hot-isostatic pressing and heat treatment to process it - The HIPing was used to crush any voids and the heat treatment was used to relieve any residual stress.  We went through a long development process, so I got used to seeing a wide variety of surface finishes.

I have two concerns with your cam.

1)  The surface finish on the unmachined faces in the first photographs looks alot like the components we were making.  Without more detailed inspection, I'd guess that they had been cast.  As cast properties give about half the strength of rolled plate - I'd be concerned about their strength - surely WC did't design the cams lobes to be cast?

2)  Also of concern, is the fact that the surface defects (which could be cracks) could act as stress concentrators and as engineers will know, the sharp end of a crack can increase local tensile stress by as much as eight times.  This could also significantly affect their strength.

I have just inspected my three Friends (five to fifteen years old) and I don't see ANY such surface marks.  None.

I think you are right to send them to WC.  I wouldn't trust them.  Compared to the quality of all my climbing / caving / cycling hardware, they look like s**t.

 Dave Cundy 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Just noticed that the EpicTV shop appears to be based at the Bloc climbing wall in Bristol.  As I live in Bristol, I'll pop down there in the morning and have a look at the quality of the New Friends they have in their shop.

 Alex Riley 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Dave Cundy:

I had a look in a shop today and most of them had similar line marks between the machined faces.

 Alkis 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Dave Cundy:

> 1)  The surface finish on the unmachined faces in the first photographs looks alot like the components we were making.  Without more detailed inspection, I'd guess that they had been cast.  As cast properties give about half the strength of rolled plate - I'd be concerned about their strength - surely WC did't design the cams lobes to be cast?

According to Mike further up in the thread, they are not cast.

 nacnud 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Alkis:

I think they are hot forged, then machined where needed.

 Alkis 07 Oct 2018
In reply to Mowglee:

Their technical side was fully absorbed into Salewa in April. A good friend of mine was doing a placement there at the time and had to continue it in Italy, while other employees were made redundant, but I do not know any other details.

 beardy mike 08 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

So let me start by batting some of the easy points made.

Salewa bought WC five years ago. The site in Tideswell Derbyshire is no longer used and WC  consists to my knowledge of 2 UK reps, the rest of the operation is based in Bolzano Italy, and as far as I know there are not many of the original employees retained within the business. IMO really sad, but it is what it is.

Method of manufacture is as far as I know by hot forging and rumbling. This was the case for Helium friends and is the case for DMM Dragons, both generations there of. There is inevitably a witness mark where the flash which remains after forging is removed. The lobes are 100% NOT cast as this generally leads to porosities and imperfections which would be completely undesirable, especially in a dual axle design. I am pretty confident that this is not cracking as suggested by Dave Cundy amongst others. I'm not really sure why he would suggest that they have been cast, as they look like they've been forged!

Your purple cam is clearly less of an issue - the finish is generally what I would expect.

The silver one, well I would tend to agree that the surface finish is not great. Not so much on the outer surface but on the inner surface which seems to have marks which IMO should not be there. Whether those marks constitute a direct threat to the units safety, is a different question and I some how doubt that they are significant enough. That said, I think you caution is not misplaced and at the very least the QC dept should take a look at the units and identify whether there is a consistent number of units which have similar markings, if only to improve the quality.

Previous cam lobes, prior to Helium cams were manufactured in an entirely different way and were extruded and machined. So Ridge's point about Techincal frineds, Micro mates and Camalots are somewhat moot in the sense that an extruded surface is bound to be reasonably flawless, as you are not matching two halves of a press and squeezing a lump of metal between them.

Are they genuine, - I doubt very much that they are a fake, but I guess stranger things happen. But I would say parts look consistent with the designs etc.

Yes these cams are built in the far east, that in an of itself is not a problem. They re constructed as far as I am aware in the same facility that produced BD C4's (before assembly was moved back to the states), so the company is well versed in cam construction.

The one thing I would say is that it seems odd to me is that there are forging marks on the silver one - my intention when it was designed was that each cam lobe would be machined from bar, not forged. My job stopped at the design, and I had no further involvement being an external consultant. But here we are looking at witness marks.

I would keep pressing for an answer. I can point James at this thread and maybe he will be willing to comment? But he is a rep, rather than a QC manager so it would probably take time.

Post edited at 00:23
 Dave Cundy 08 Oct 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Actually, i didn't mean to assert that they were cast - the process is totally unsuitable for this application.  It was more a question of being puzzled by the poor surface finish, which i haven't seen on any of my other bits of climbing kit.  If the production finish was down to me, i'd machine those marks off.  It would add slightly to their cost but ought to improve confidence in the product. Especially if no-one else's products have those marks.  If WC want to save money like that, they are going to have to educate the customer (us) as to why it is acceptable / of no consequence.

In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

I don't think these are acceptable for new safety devices. For the price one pays for cams, one expects the highest possible standards.

 Ridge 08 Oct 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

> Previous cam lobes, prior to Helium cams were manufactured in an entirely different way and were extruded and machined. So Ridge's point about Techincal frineds, Micro mates and Camalots are somewhat moot in the sense that an extruded surface is bound to be reasonably flawless, as you are not matching two halves of a press and squeezing a lump of metal between them.

Thanks mike, wasn't aware of that.

 

OP Lucky_Tiger 08 Oct 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Thanks Mike! Your clarification is appreciated.

> I would keep pressing for an answer. I can point James at this thread and maybe he will be willing to comment? But he is a rep, rather than a QC manager so it would probably take time.

Yes please, I have sent WC plenty of e-mails detailing the situation, but perhaps James has internal contacts and can push things forward. 

In reply to Dave Cundy:

FYI, I am quoting the WC cam book here (p29):

Safety
The safe working life of Wild Country Friends may be as little as one use in extreme circumstances, therefore it is vitally important that you check your Friends before each use. If any of the following are detected you should retire the Friend from use immediately and seek expert advice.
a) Metal components: corrosion, burrs, cracks, distortion, broken or frayed cables, excessive wear, deformed stem.
b) Flexible stems: particularly check that the stem is straight and not suffering from deformation, abrasion or broken strands of wire.
c) Textile slings: check for broken stitches, cut of worn threads.

https://www.wildcountry.com/media/pdf/c9/92/40/Wild-Country-Cam-book.pdf

 Mr. Lee 08 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

> Yes please, I have sent WC plenty of e-mails detailing the situation. 

This is the bigger problem for me than the cam imperfections. I wouldn't buy a product such as a cam from a company with such rubbish technical support. A user shouldn't have to resort to a ukc forum over such a matter because somebody in Italy can't be bothered to reply to an email. DMM are absolutely leagues ahead of WC in this respect.

 MischaHY 08 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Simply request a refund and switch to DMM and Dragons. The quality control is absolutely immense and you're supporting UK based manufacturing at the highest standards.

 TobyA 08 Oct 2018
In reply to MischaHY:

> Simply request a refund and switch to DMM and Dragons. The quality control is absolutely immense

I have Dragons and have used them a lot, and respect DMM's products but they are not perfect either. They had a recall on the bigger sizes just months after first releasing them, and last year I lost a dragon because the stem termination came loose from the head unit meaning it was impossible with the normal equipment you have at the crag to remove the cam, you couldn't disengage the lobes because the shaft moved through the head of the unit when you tried to pull the trigger bar back. By the time I could get back there with more tools someone else had removed it, although whether, say, epoxy would have been enough to hold the stem in place again I don't know

DMM were, shall we say, moderately sympathetic and sold me a new cam at a reduced price. I didn't need to pay full retail price, yes, but having worked in shops before I suspect that DMM would have still made some profit selling them direct to a customer at that price! And the cam got stuck due a design or manufacturing error/weakness not in the case a user error. :-/

 

Northern Star 08 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Similar shoddy 'couldn't care less' customer service from Black Diamond over sourcing replacement tips for an expensive pair of carbon walking poles I purchased just a couple of years back.

BD customer service didn't even seem to recognise one of their own products, and sent me details of the incorrect spare parts to buy.  Went back to them when the said spares they'd recommended wouldn't fit and got passed from pillar to post until they agreed to send out replacement lower shafts of a slightly different design - which never arrived as promised in time for my trip to the Alps.  Two months later and they still haven't arrived so after dealing with about 4 different people and written several more emails I've given up hope and thrown in the towel.

I've probably spent over £1,000 on Black Diamond stuff over the last few years including a full set of Camelots.  Shame that their expensive products are not backed up by a customer service team that actually cares or knows enough to make a difference.  Not sure I'll buy again for this reason.

Compare the difference to when I had an issue with a de-laminating Pataonia Jacket and Patagonia customer service, even though based in Europe, moved heaven and earth to quickly fix the problem.

Post edited at 19:52
 Coel Hellier 08 Oct 2018
In reply to MischaHY:

> Simply request a refund and switch to DMM and Dragons.

But they have a pig's nose, rather than a thumb loop!

1
 MischaHY 09 Oct 2018
In reply to TobyA:

IMO they're as close to perfect as you can reasonably come in that style of manufacturing. You know they've only had IIRC two recalls in 30 years? Both times the recall could be ID'd down to a very small run of product due to the detailed material cataloguing system they use. If a carabiner or similar develops a flaw they can ID the batch of aluminium it was made from, and then recall those specific biners instead of having something like the absolute farce that was the Wild Country Classic Rocks recall a few years back. 

TBH they probably did make some profit on it but you can hardly blame them when you weren't able to send the unit back for inspection. Usually that's a brick wall in my experience. 

 

 MischaHY 09 Oct 2018
In reply to Coel Hellier:

> But they have a pig's nose, rather than a thumb loop!

Makes no difference in my experience. Personal preference obviously. 

1
 beardy mike 09 Oct 2018
In reply to MischaHY:

I think you need to start making fact based comments rather than basing them on some sort of brand loyalty. DMM has fantastic products, some of the best on the market but that doesn't make the recall less serious or less of an oversight. The DMM Dragon recall was small because they had only just started making them when they recalled - if you've only sold 1000 units, it's a much simpler thing to do. It was I believe due to them using an extruded blockof aluminium for the axle end stem termination which had the grain structure aligned in such a way that it was prone to failure. So basically a design mistake. It was easy to control because they knew exactly which units had that part in them and so could recall very specific items.

By contrast, the Rock recall was due to an assembly issue which was completely random and impossible to find without destroying each unit. If you have 100000 units out there with a very small and imperceptible defect, you have no choice other than to recall all of them. This was not a material defect and contrary to your belief that you can pinpoint a defect by looking at batch numbers, sometimes you can't. The reality is that the level they were failing at was still adequate to withstand the vast majority of falls, but that is not good enough, they need to exceed their rated strength. So they recalled everything and tested everything that was sent back. The number of failures was in reality very very small. Rather than having to deal with a few hundred units as was the case with DMM, they had to process hundreds of thousands. That takes time and manpower, as you have to make new ones to replace the old.

Now take for example the case of Black Diamond. They moved manufacturing back from the Far East, to improve quality. Only they dropped multiple balls in doing so. They had slings leave their facility with pieces of sticky tape holding the sling together and carabiners missing properly finished rivets which means that:

A) they did not sufficently train their operatives

B) their quality control was utterly negligent

C) their management failed to implement proper structure to the relocation and tried to take on too much in one hit.

There were people with a misplaced sense of brand loyalty crowing about how they were so good to be recalling everything rather than slating them as happened with Wild Country. I'm not saying WC should have been let off, quite the opposite - recalls shouldn't happen, but they do, and actually WC did everything in their power to make sure people were safe, and sure they might not have been as responsive to e-mails as they could hav been but shoot me they had thousands of claims to deal with.

Post edited at 09:07
 MischaHY 09 Oct 2018
In reply to beardy mike:

Apologies for coming off a bit strong, the situation with Wild Country seemed to be handled in a confusing way from an external perspective but perhaps this is simply the result of being an external observer. 

I must say though its sad to hear the Tideswell base is gone and staff laid off - although it did explain why an old climbing partner of mine was suddenly touring the US & Canada instead of sitting in their accounting office. 

 

 Alkis 09 Oct 2018
In reply to MischaHY:

> although it did explain why an old climbing partner of mine was suddenly touring the US & Canada instead of sitting in their accounting office. 

They both seem to be having rather a good time on that converted schoolbus!

OP Lucky_Tiger 09 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Just had succes contacting Wild Country through Facebook. They will look into it and provide feedback within 3 days.

 nniff 09 Oct 2018
In reply to Northern Star:

Black Diamond and Patagonia - both Chouinard companies

 wbo 09 Oct 2018
In reply to nniff:

Not for a long time - Black Diamond went their own way 1989.  Very, very different owners now 

Post edited at 11:51
 leon 1 09 Oct 2018
In reply to nniff: Err no. Whilst Chouinard founded Patagonia and Chouinard Equipment he sold the Chouinard side of it to employees headed by Pete Metcalf in 1989. This became Black Diamond of which he has had no financial interest in since. BD is now owned by Clarus Corporation, which also owns Armor Holdings (US Defence Contractor)

Patagonia he still owns and does nice things with

 

 

Post edited at 11:57
 Martin Bennett 09 Oct 2018
In reply to Lucky_Tiger:

Great stuff. Can you let us know their findings and remarks please?

 nniff 09 Oct 2018
In reply to leon 1:

> Err no. Whilst Chouinard founded Patagonia and Chouinard Equipment he sold the Chouinard side of it to employees headed by Pete Metcalf in 1989. This became Black Diamond of which he has had no financial interest in since. BD is now owned by Clarus Corporation, which also owns Armor Holdings (US Defence Contractor)

> Patagonia he still owns and does nice things with

That's not what I said - I merely remarked that they were both Chouinard companies - I should perhaps have added 'originally'.  Interesting how things diverge.  I does make me smile that the original Chouinard filed for bankruptcy to avoid litigation for injury etc but it is now owned by a company whose other products really are designed to kill people.

 TobyA 09 Oct 2018
In reply to MischaHY:

> TBH they probably did make some profit on it but you can hardly blame them when you weren't able to send the unit back for inspection. Usually that's a brick wall in my experience. 

Well, I couldn't send it back because I couldn't get it out because something in the design or manufacturing went wrong - so I'm not sure if that a helpful answer. Anyway, DMM tasked Ben Bransby to go and recover it but unfortunately by the time Ben got there some other unknown party had already recovered it.

I've got no dog in this fight, I'm just saying I don't think any cam manufacturer has a flawless history. Clearly they are not simple engineering problems to solve - not for all the things we want them and expect them to do!

 


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